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3-way: wild-avs-coyotes

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Old
05-09-2009, 08:13 PM
  #1
captain AARON MAIDEN*
 
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3-way: wild-avs-coyotes

wild - hanzal+sauer+3rd round pick (avs-64 overall)

avs - harding

coyotes - zidlicky+wolski


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Old
05-09-2009, 08:27 PM
  #2
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do the coyotes need to be a part of this trade??

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05-09-2009, 08:29 PM
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So the Avs trade a high third and Wolski for Harding....um...no.

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Old
05-09-2009, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jori View Post
So the Avs trade a high third and Wolski for Harding....um...no.
Are the Avs tanking for Taylor Hall? Budaj/Raycroft tandem = amazing

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Originally Posted by New Jersey Devils View Post
do the coyotes need to be a part of this trade??
what's the problem?

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain AARON MAIDEN View Post
Are the Avs tanking for Taylor Hall? Budaj/Raycroft tandem = amazing
Just because Harding is better than what we currently have in net, doesn't mean we need to overpay for him. I think Wolski for Harding is more than fair, we should not have to give up a high 3rd as well.

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:13 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain AARON MAIDEN View Post
Are the Avs tanking for Taylor Hall? Budaj/Raycroft tandem = amazing
No, but that doesn't mean make retarded overpayments for someone.

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:13 PM
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So the Avs trade a high third and Wolski for Harding....um...no.
This.

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:19 PM
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Three way trades never happen!!!

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05-09-2009, 10:24 PM
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Three way trades never happen!!!
ohhh kid.yeah, never...


ps: avs fans are hilarious.

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Old
05-09-2009, 10:58 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
Just because Harding is better than what we currently have in net, doesn't mean we need to overpay for him. I think Wolski for Harding is more than fair, we should not have to give up a high 3rd as well.
Everybody is high on that trade, Wolski for Harding, and while it's close, I don't see either team doing it. One team is going to win that trade and another will lose, and you don't want to be the loser because it will haunt you for many years. Plus I may be biased, but Wolski has more value than Harding imo.

As to the OP, no way dude. sorry.

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Old
05-09-2009, 11:37 PM
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Nope.

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Old
05-10-2009, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain AARON MAIDEN View Post
Are the Avs tanking for Taylor Hall? Budaj/Raycroft tandem = amazing



what's the problem?
true, we should probably throw in stastny and the #3 overall just to make sure

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Old
05-10-2009, 01:57 AM
  #13
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I can see Avs fans are pretty cranky about this proposal, but I have to ask, what is it about Wolski that makes Avs fans think that he should be treated as a major commodity in trade proposals? He's certainly not an old player, but he's not a baby either. He's 23, played more than 3 full season in the NHL, and hasn't topped 22 goals or 50 points (and has had his numbers drop each season). He strikes me as a good player, and nothing more. He isn't great on the power play. He's average at best defensively. He's not a physical player despite good size. And it's not like he's on some sort of amazing contract. $2.8 million for a guy who is a 45-50 point player is pretty much average value.

Harding is the premier waiting-for-his-turn backup goaltender in the NHL. And he'll be on a cheap contract. That is a valuable commodity, and a commodity that the Avs don't currently have.

Not sure the Wild would make this trade within their division, but I'd jump on it if I were the Avs. I certainly expect to see the Flyers going after this guy.

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Old
05-10-2009, 02:16 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
I can see Avs fans are pretty cranky about this proposal, but I have to ask, what is it about Wolski that makes Avs fans think that he should be treated as a major commodity in trade proposals? He's certainly not an old player, but he's not a baby either. He's 23, played more than 3 full season in the NHL, and hasn't topped 22 goals or 50 points (and has had his numbers drop each season). He strikes me as a good player, and nothing more. He isn't great on the power play. He's average at best defensively. He's not a physical player despite good size. And it's not like he's on some sort of amazing contract. $2.8 million for a guy who is a 45-50 point player is pretty much average value.

Harding is the premier waiting-for-his-turn backup goaltender in the NHL. And he'll be on a cheap contract. That is a valuable commodity, and a commodity that the Avs don't currently have.

Not sure the Wild would make this trade within their division, but I'd jump on it if I were the Avs. I certainly expect to see the Flyers going after this guy.
First off, Wolski has tons of potential. He has 80-90 point potential if he fully pans out. I know he hasn't lived up to it yet, but he has made amazing strides in his defensive game. He is not "average at best" like you put it. He is a good defensive player who is very good at killing penalties because of his long stick and speed. He's been somewhat misused/mishandled by our coaches (using him at LW for the first 2 and half years) and only for the last 30 games or so was he put back in his natural centre position.


By the way, what makes Harding have so much more value than Wolski anyways? He still hasn't proven anything yet. Both are players with tremendous upside, but neither has reached it yet.

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Old
05-10-2009, 03:20 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
Harding is the premier waiting-for-his-turn backup goaltender in the NHL. And he'll be on a cheap contract. That is a valuable commodity, and a commodity that the Avs don't currently have.
No, it is not valuable. It's nice to have, but nothing to go overboard for. Any way you chalk it up he is not proven. History is full of guys with equal or better potential falling on their faces as starters. In a market where proven guys aren't getting much more than Wolski, why the hell should we pony up more for a guy who's just as likely to flop? Show me an instance where an unproven prospect (can he even be considered a prospect anymore?) goalie fetched this kind of return (Wolski + high 3rd).

Wolski is seen as a big part of our future. His point totals aren't what we have expected, but his overall game is way beyond what I expected at this point in his career. Most of us don't care what your (inaccurate) opinion of him is, he's valuable to our franchise and it will likely take an overpayment to pull him away from us. Harding is not an overpayment, though I think a lot of us would accept this as a trade if it were to happen. There is no way the Avalanche should be the ones adding to this trade.

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Old
05-10-2009, 03:40 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
I can see Avs fans are pretty cranky about this proposal, but I have to ask, what is it about Wolski that makes Avs fans think that he should be treated as a major commodity in trade proposals? He's certainly not an old player, but he's not a baby either. He's 23, played more than 3 full season in the NHL, and hasn't topped 22 goals or 50 points (and has had his numbers drop each season). He strikes me as a good player, and nothing more. He isn't great on the power play. He's average at best defensively. He's not a physical player despite good size. And it's not like he's on some sort of amazing contract. $2.8 million for a guy who is a 45-50 point player is pretty much average value.

Harding is the premier waiting-for-his-turn backup goaltender in the NHL. And he'll be on a cheap contract. That is a valuable commodity, and a commodity that the Avs don't currently have.

Not sure the Wild would make this trade within their division, but I'd jump on it if I were the Avs. I certainly expect to see the Flyers going after this guy.
I like how you demean Wolski with the same facts you use to boost Harding. Harding hasn't proven much of anything, he hasn't had to play a major role as of yet, we've seen plenty of "decent looking goaltenders" bomb because they are inconsistent.

That and half the facts you use aren't even true about Wolski. His defensive game has grown leaps and bounds, he's often one of our first forwards back defensively, he's used on the PK and is still getting better in that aspect.

He is also one of those players that has been brutally misused by the coaching staff, he's a center who was forced to play at left wing because our coach is a moron. He is brilliant playing the point on the powerplay, so what happens? He either plays left wing on the first PP or center on the second PP.

Just look at John-Michael Liles, he's one of USA's better offensive defensemen...and on the Avs he's not really allowed to do much of anything. The Avalanche may have the worst collection of coaches ever seen in the NHL, they're all there because they are part of the "Avalanche family" in other words, horribly under qualified, proven failures, but have connections with the highest members of the organization.

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Old
05-10-2009, 07:24 AM
  #17
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The Dollar amounts do not jive for the Coyotes.

Hanzal+sauer = 2.6
Zidlicky + Wolski = 6.7

Can't be done. Sure they have cap space but not the dollars to back it up.

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Old
05-10-2009, 08:34 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
First off, Wolski has tons of potential. He has 80-90 point potential if he fully pans out. I know he hasn't lived up to it yet, but he has made amazing strides in his defensive game. He is not "average at best" like you put it. He is a good defensive player who is very good at killing penalties because of his long stick and speed. He's been somewhat misused/mishandled by our coaches (using him at LW for the first 2 and half years) and only for the last 30 games or so was he put back in his natural centre position.


By the way, what makes Harding have so much more value than Wolski anyways? He still hasn't proven anything yet. Both are players with tremendous upside, but neither has reached it yet.
It's pretty simple actually... Wolski has had ample opportunity to live up to his potential and Harding hasn't.

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Old
05-10-2009, 09:27 AM
  #19
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Everybody is high on that trade, Wolski for Harding, and while it's close, I don't see either team doing it. One team is going to win that trade and another will lose, and you don't want to be the loser because it will haunt you for many years. Plus I may be biased, but Wolski has more value than Harding imo.

As to the OP, no way dude. sorry.
What?
Are you honestly trying to suggest that the Wild wouldn't trade a goalie who will play 10-15 games for the next 3 years for a top 6 prospect? For real?

But I agree, the trade is ridiculous.

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Old
05-10-2009, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mnwildfan79 View Post
It's pretty simple actually... Wolski has had ample opportunity to live up to his potential and Harding hasn't.
That makes him more valuable than a goalie that has had opportunity and failed, but not as valuable as an established one. Wolski has one more season to live up to his billing after making great strides defensively, so we'll see.

Frankly, Wojo for Harding is very fair. Not sure if I'd do it, but no way do we keep adding on top of that.

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Old
05-10-2009, 02:45 PM
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The Wild are the ones who get smoked in this deal; Zidlicky and Harding for Hanzal, Sauer, and a 3rd? Yeah right!

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Old
05-10-2009, 04:52 PM
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First off, Minnesota gets wasted in this deal. There's nothing in return that makes me glad to give up one of the best young goalie prospects in the NHL. Minnesota has never needed another Hanzal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
I can see Avs fans are pretty cranky about this proposal, but I have to ask, what is it about Wolski that makes Avs fans think that he should be treated as a major commodity in trade proposals? He's certainly not an old player, but he's not a baby either. He's 23, played more than 3 full season in the NHL, and hasn't topped 22 goals or 50 points (and has had his numbers drop each season). He strikes me as a good player, and nothing more. He isn't great on the power play. He's average at best defensively. He's not a physical player despite good size. And it's not like he's on some sort of amazing contract. $2.8 million for a guy who is a 45-50 point player is pretty much average value.
I have to agree. Wolski is striking me as good, but not great. I think people still are remembering the hot start and forgetting the trends. Wolski is not showing himself to be a great goal scorer, and his playmaking isn't off the charts to compensate. He's a solid young 2nd-liner, and it's looking clearer and clearer that he's nothing more than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
First off, Wolski has tons of potential. He has 80-90 point potential if he fully pans out. I know he hasn't lived up to it yet, but he has made amazing strides in his defensive game. He is not "average at best" like you put it. He is a good defensive player who is very good at killing penalties because of his long stick and speed.
No, Wolski does not have tons of potential. His potential is waning year by year with his goals and points. He still has some potential for better, but a 80-90 point potential is ridiculously high. How about he gets to 60 first? Players don't go from 50 to 80 with regularity. Good for him that he's playing a better 2-way game. He'll need to do it to make up for his lack of goal scoring. Wolski was at LW because he was the odd-man out when you have the likes of Sakic and Stastny up the middle. That's not a coaching problem. That's a side-effect of having many good players!

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Originally Posted by detrude View Post
Show me an instance where an unproven prospect (can he even be considered a prospect anymore?) goalie fetched this kind of return (Wolski + high 3rd).
There isn't a direct comparison I can think of, but look at what Mike Smith and a couple bottom-6ers brought in. And Smith did not have the pedigree of Harding.

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Originally Posted by Jcrew View Post
What?
Are you honestly trying to suggest that the Wild wouldn't trade a goalie who will play 10-15 games for the next 3 years for a top 6 prospect? For real?
Would the wild make that trade for a top-6 forward? Maybe. Would they make it in their division to a team that needs goaltending as much as any? Probably not.

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Old
05-10-2009, 05:00 PM
  #23
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The Coyotes get boned here.

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Old
05-10-2009, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
No, Wolski does not have tons of potential. His potential is waning year by year with his goals and points. He still has some potential for better, but a 80-90 point potential is ridiculously high. How about he gets to 60 first? Players don't go from 50 to 80 with regularity. Good for him that he's playing a better 2-way game. He'll need to do it to make up for his lack of goal scoring. Wolski was at LW because he was the odd-man out when you have the likes of Sakic and Stastny up the middle. That's not a coaching problem. That's a side-effect of having many good players!
Swing and a miss. Wolski was placed at LW from day 1, before Stastny was on the team and when Turgeon was our second line center (and we had no real thrid line center). He played 9 regular season and 8 post season games at LW, then came into camp the following year as a left winger after dominating the OHL as a center. Quenneville never gave him a chance at center, and Granato followed suit. When he was moved to first line center this season he was a point per game player, and more often than not was the best player on the ice. Many times during that stretch he showed flashes of brilliance and flat out dominated the game. That's the potential we all see watching him every game and the potential you cannot see watching him for 6 games. He may not hit that potential, and if he doesn't he's still a solid second line guy who can play in any situation, but that potential is what makes us value him so much. He may be worth less to other teams, but not many teams would openly trade someone like Wolski when they're rebuilding unless they get an overpayment--Harding isn't that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
There isn't a direct comparison I can think of, but look at what Mike Smith and a couple bottom-6ers brought in. And Smith did not have the pedigree of Harding.
Your're right, it's not a direct comparison. Tampa was dealing from a position of significant weakness in that deal, that doesn't mean you're getting anywhere near the same kind of return on Harding. Smith may or may not have the same pedigree as Harding, but at the time of this trade he had more NHL starts and, for all intents and purposes, was more proven at the NHL level. What keeps getting overlooked here is there is no such thing as a surefire goaltending prospect, AHL stats and pedigree mean jack. His value isn't going to be through the roof until he proves he can handle the rigors of an everyday starter in the NHL.

Edit: All this said, I realize Harding is in the same boat in Minnesota--he's a great prospect with great upside. I can understand why many fans do not want to give him up, at least not for cheap. Wolski for Harding is something I think a lot of Avs fans would be OK with, especially if we draft Duchene, but it's a deal I think most will feel we overpayed for. However, adding a third to the deal kills it from our POV. Minnesota fans may think differently, especially since it's a divisional trade.

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05-10-2009, 06:23 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain AARON MAIDEN View Post
wild - hanzal+sauer+3rd round pick (avs-64 overall)

avs - harding

coyotes - zidlicky+wolski

If the Avs want Harding why not sign him to an offer sheet? A $2.6 million offer would only cost the Avs a second round pick and they currently have two in this draft.

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