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Roberto Luongo

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Old
05-11-2009, 11:57 PM
  #26
LaLaLand
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The value of Luongo ... well im pretty sure you canuckleheads need to settle down...
so what if you guys got worked up and down by chicago, he is still one of the best in the league, maybe you guys should think about moving the sisters, and all your other scrub forwards.

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05-11-2009, 11:57 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoHo View Post
I think that if DET can get a star goalie, they will become a dynasty.

Datsyuk, McCollum, 2009 1st for Luongo
No WAY Datsyuk goes anywhere.

(Sorry, hard to tell what's a joke and what isn't)

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Old
05-11-2009, 11:58 PM
  #28
Saren
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoHo View Post
I think that if DET can get a star goalie, they will become a dynasty.

Datsyuk, McCollum, 2009 1st for Luongo
**** McCollum. I want absolutely nothing to do with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Before this series he was untouchable unless he voluntarily left in UFA. Now, he has one year left and a fan base comprised of some of whom blame him for the series loss, some of whom do not. Those that do say his entire value is premised on winning games exactly like this, therefore he has less value.

I was offering the top prospect from the best prospect pool in the league, and while not everyone agrees, some think is the single best prospect. I consider that "giving to get," definitely painful for both sides. Felt it was worth discussion or worth a serious, explanation why not. Those that don't think "Arguably Best Prospect for Luongo" in a "Value of Luongo" thread is even a serious offer should explain why. All trades are calculated risks, after all.
First of all, 'those people' you are referencing in your first paragraph are morons. The world is full of them, so its up to you to differentiate intellectual content versus emotional input.

Secondly, the top prospect from whose perspective? HFBoards? I don't think you understand that it's not just some people who disagree Pietrangelo is the #1 prospect, but pretty much the entire world sees that list as botched.

You want Roberto? Start with Erik Johnson, my friend.

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05-11-2009, 11:59 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
To Col:
Luongo

To Van:
Darcy Tucker
The right to Tyler Arnason
Conditional 8th round pick (if Arnason doesn't re-sign)
We have a winner!!!

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Old
05-12-2009, 12:05 AM
  #30
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I'm suprised there hasn't been the Joe Thornton for Roberto Luongo proposal yet? Choker for Choker. SJ then can deal Nabby somewhere else

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05-12-2009, 12:06 AM
  #31
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I want Carter and VanRiemsdyk. Someone make this happen.

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Old
05-12-2009, 12:16 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
**** McCollum. I want absolutely nothing to do with him.



First of all, 'those people' you are referencing in your first paragraph are morons. The world is full of them, so its up to you to differentiate intellectual content versus emotional input.

Secondly, the top prospect from whose perspective? HFBoards? I don't think you understand that it's not just some people who disagree Pietrangelo is the #1 prospect, but pretty much the entire world sees that list as botched.

You want Roberto? Start with Erik Johnson, my friend.
Definitionally it's not the entire world, but it's beside the point. For example, we wouldn't trade Pietrangelo for Hodgson straight up. If Pietrangelo is the best, second best or third best prospect it really doesn't matter. It's about an elite prospect for a player who you could lose for nothing in a year.

If I didn't disagree with the people who are ready to dump him, I wouldn't make the offer. By saying "EJ," you're essentially saying "Luongo is still untouchable." Which is fair and fine if true.

Now, and this is interesting, as Blues and Canucks fans who've observed many years of playoff failure and are honed in on "clutchness" as a premier value, you can't disagree that tonight is Not Good for Luongo. It definitely diminishes him, whether you're his biggest fan or not. That was a textbook meltdown. You lead a must win game with 7min to play, you gotta win, not let in 3 goals over that span. It makes you wonder whether he's more Price than Ward. Whether or not he's inconsistent. I wouldn't give up EJ to get him when EJ is cheaper and whose rights are controlled in the new NHL for many more years.

(In actuality, we'd have to do something like Pietrangelo, McKee's final year and the 16th/17th overall pick this year or next, just money wise.)

Unless, of course, Schneider isn't all that?

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05-12-2009, 12:18 AM
  #33
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Please ignore some of our more emotional fans. They're not in the right mindset. It's like every time we lose the aggression centers in our brains fire off non-stop and unfortunately they're directed at our goaltender right now.

Luongo is a great goaltender and there's no sense in Vancouver trading away their captain. He has at least one more year with the Canucks and that's another shot at glory. If after that our city isn't the right place for him, he'll go somewhere better and undoubtedly will succeed there.

To answer the OP though, a deal like Price and P.K Subban might be tempting. Two cities with a general contempt for great goaltenders swapping for home(province/town) boys

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Old
05-12-2009, 12:21 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Definitionally it's not the entire world, but it's beside the point. For example, we wouldn't trade Pietrangelo for Hodgson straight up. If Pietrangelo is the best, second best or third best prospect it really doesn't matter. It's about an elite prospect for a player who you could lose for nothing in a year.

If I didn't disagree with the people who are ready to dump him, I wouldn't make the offer. By saying "EJ," you're essentially saying "Luongo is still untouchable." Which is fair and fine if true.

Now, and this is interesting, as Blues and Canucks fans who've observed many years of playoff failure and are honed in on "clutchness" as a premier value, you can't disagree that tonight is Not Good for Luongo. It definitely diminishes him, whether you're his biggest fan or not. That was a textbook meltdown. You lead a must win game with 7min to play, you gotta win, not let in 3 goals over that span. It makes you wonder whether he's more Price than Ward. Whether or not he's inconsistent. I wouldn't give up EJ to get him when EJ is cheaper and whose rights are controlled in the new NHL for many more years.

(In actuality, we'd have to do something like Pietrangelo, McKee's final year and the 16th/17th overall pick this year or next, just money wise.)

Unless, of course, Schneider isn't all that?
it would be an interesting offer and one to consider but I think a team like Philly will blow that offer out of the water if Luongo is on the Trade Block.

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Old
05-12-2009, 12:29 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
I want Carter and VanRiemsdyk. Someone make this happen.
What are the chances of Vancouver taking back some salary? The Flyers would be adding $1.75M to their current cap in this deal. Any possibilities of taking Jones or Carle?

And would Kesler also be available? I think I already know the answer to that one, but figured I would throw it out there.

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Old
05-12-2009, 12:36 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Definitionally it's not the entire world, but it's beside the point. For example, we wouldn't trade Pietrangelo for Hodgson straight up. If Pietrangelo is the best, second best or third best prospect it really doesn't matter. It's about an elite prospect for a player who you could lose for nothing in a year.
I'm pretty sure Cody and Alex are signed to the same length, but okay.

Quote:
If I didn't disagree with the people who are ready to dump him, I wouldn't make the offer. By saying "EJ," you're essentially saying "Luongo is still untouchable." Which is fair and fine if true.
By saying Erik Johnson, I'm saying you're going to have to give to get. Luongo is the cog that drives this team. Erik Johnson, while a great prospect (He's played one season, but that's just my opinion to be honest), alone would still hardly merit Vancouver's interest.

Each to his own.



Quote:
Now, and this is interesting, as Blues and Canucks fans who've observed many years of playoff failure and are honed in on "clutchness" as a premier value, you can't disagree that tonight is Not Good for Luongo. It definitely diminishes him, whether you're his biggest fan or not. That was a textbook meltdown. You lead a must win game with 7min to play, you gotta win, not let in 3 goals over that span. It makes you wonder whether he's more Price than Ward. Whether or not he's inconsistent. I wouldn't give up EJ to get him when EJ is cheaper and whose rights are controlled in the new NHL for many more years.
Someone on our board pointed out something interesting last night- to falter in the playoffs, you need to make the playoffs first and foremost. As a Canucks fan, I can confidently say that without Luongo at the beginning of this season the Northwest Division title would not have been ours. The playoffs would have been murky, to be quite frank, without Roberto backstopping us every night.

I can't understand how you 'wouldn't' give up Erik Johnson to get a premiere goalie. Let's say you don't make the playoffs for however many years you control EJ's rights, and at the end of his contract he leaves for another team.

I realize this works both ways, with Roberto and whatnot, mainly because his contract is up at the end of the next year... which provokes many thoughts.

Quote:
(In actuality, we'd have to do something like Pietrangelo, McKee's final year and the 16th/17th overall pick this year or next, just money wise.)
In actuality, we'd do something like Erik Johnson, David Perron, and a mid-round pick.

Only in the minds of casual fans and emotional spectators do player values diminish over one game.

Quote:
Unless, of course, Schneider isn't all that?
Schneider for Pietrangelo, then. Bombs away?


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
What are the chances of Vancouver taking back some salary? The Flyers would be adding $1.75M to their current cap in this deal. Any possibilities of taking Jones or Carle?

And would Kesler also be available? I think I already know the answer to that one, but figured I would throw it out there.
I'm not really one of the brilliant hockey minds amongst our fans, but I'll give it a shot.

a) I think we have a bunch of extensions kicking in next season, which compensates for the salary cap gained from departing UFA's such as Sundin, Ohlund, Pyatt, and the like. Re-upping Daniel and Henrik will more than likely cost $4 million in cap space combined at the minimum (assuming they take prolonged, $5.5 million dollar contracts) which, if my pathetic math skills are of any value, doesn't give us much room to wiggle.

(I'll do some quick calculating and get back to you)

EDIT 2:


Okay, I calculated our Cap hit next year without FA signings and it equated to $32.083 million dollars.

Now, assuming we resign our Free-Agents with the following prices:

[Player/Cap Hit]

Daniel- $5.5

Henrik- $5.5

Bernier
- $2.5

Wellwood- $1.5

Hansen- $0.9

O'Brien- $1.2

Vaananen- $1

Labarbera- $0.825

That leaves us around $5 million roughly in cap room. Carle's and Jones' cap hits are $3 million, which immediately kills any chances of signing FA players this season. If we're trying to tank, I'd gladly take Jones' contract as it expires next season.. but if we're competitive, Carle would interest me most.

Carle seems like a decent player. He's a young defenseman that I wouldn't mind seeing on our blue-line. How does he play? Our d-corp is aging rapidly, so bringing in new blood wouldn't be too shabby.

... and I hate to ask, but if we sent Luongo the other way would Biron be able (splitting duties with Schneider)


b) I just can't see a justifiable situation where Kesler gets traded to Philly. He is to Vancouver what Richards is to the Flyers. Cap space would be important here because next year he's due for a bigass raise.


Last edited by Saren: 05-12-2009 at 12:59 AM.
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Old
05-12-2009, 12:58 AM
  #37
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Nabakov + Cheechoo + 2nd in 2010

for

Luongo

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Old
05-12-2009, 12:59 AM
  #38
Saren
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Nabakov + Cheechoo + 2nd in 2010

for

Luongo
Seto/Vlasic or bust.

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Old
05-12-2009, 01:16 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
That leaves us around $5 million roughly in cap room. Carle's and Jones' cap hits are $3 million, which immediately kills any chances of signing FA players this season. If we're trying to tank, I'd gladly take Jones' contract as it expires next season.. but if we're competitive, Carle would interest me most.
Appreciate the time you took to respond. I would rather lose Jones than Carle, obviously, but we pretty much have to lose one to make things work. Unless we're able to move Lupul out and save cap room that way. We would have options to shed salary, but figured I'd see what may or may not be an option for Vancouver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
Carle seems like a decent player. He's a young defenseman that I wouldn't mind seeing on our blue-line. How does he play? Our d-corp is aging rapidly, so bringing in new blood wouldn't be too shabby.
I actually like Carle, though at this point he isn't worth his salary. He's basically being paid off his rookie season performance. That said, he's young with plenty of upside, and he can most definitely move the puck. IMO, he's best off paired with a veteran stay-at-home guy, because he likes to pinch. As he gets more experience, one would think he will get better at the decision making process of when to take chances and when not to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
... and I hate to ask, but if we sent Luongo the other way would Biron be able (splitting duties with Schneider)
Well, you could have the rights to Biron, but he's a UFA come July 1st anyway. If you wanted him (his rights) as part of a deal for Luongo, in the hopes you could sign him before FA, I don't see any reason why the Flyers wouldn't make that happen. To me, Biron is better than most believe he is. He is in no way elite, but he's pretty darn solid. Check out his SV% numbers the last two seasons behind a fairly average defense. They aren't all that shabby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
b) I just can't see a justifiable situation where Kesler gets traded to Philly. He is to Vancouver what Richards is to the Flyers. Cap space would be important here because next year he's due for a bigass raise.
Totally understandable. To me, if we added someone like Luongo, Kesler would be perfect as part of a package with his selke worthy play. He and Richards up front, with Luongo in net, would make us a pretty formidable matchup for anyone, as far as being able to shutdown most opposing players. But yea, I figured he was a pipe dream. Kesler is worth every penny he gets.

Its my personal opinion that if Luongo were truly available (and I'm really not convinced that he will be), then the Flyers would make a serious offer. I don't know what the exact combo would be, as far as a package, but I'm pretty sure they could put one together that would match up with any offer the Canucks would receive.

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05-12-2009, 01:22 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
Seto/Vlasic or bust.

Maybe Michalek?

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Old
05-12-2009, 01:29 AM
  #41
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I'm pretty sure Cody and Alex are signed to the same length, but okay.
Don't follow. I'm referencing AP for RL. AP for CH is pointless and irrelevant to this thread. In AP for RL, there's a difference in length of rights. Outside of this, not sure what your comment means.



Quote:
By saying Erik Johnson, I'm saying you're going to have to give to get. Luongo is the cog that drives this team. Erik Johnson, while a great prospect (He's played one season, but that's just my opinion to be honest), alone would still hardly merit Vancouver's interest.

Each to his own.
By implication, Pietrangelo is NOT giving to get? I get that you value RL hugely and not AP, so that probably ends our meaningful back and forth, but I don't think offering the best prospect from the best system isn't "giving to get." More than EJ isn't serious, it's a joke, no offense. Luongo, as things stand now, is definitely NOT the league's premier goalie. And you're underestimating the UFA situation. If you extended him, then his value is way up and maybe we can discuss EJ. But with one year, can't do it, just objectively. Agree on "to each his own."

Quote:
Someone on our board pointed out something interesting last night- to falter in the playoffs, you need to make the playoffs first and foremost. As a Canucks fan, I can confidently say that without Luongo at the beginning of this season the Northwest Division title would not have been ours. The playoffs would have been murky, to be quite frank, without Roberto backstopping us every night.
I agree; I think without Chris Mason's performance down the stretch where the Blues were the league's hottest team the Blues don't make the playoffs. But teams where goaltenders get them into the playoffs are a dime a dozen. Our squad wasn't anywhere near as good as your squad in the playoffs, even though we outperformed even your hot team over the final half of the regular season. Consequently, I place 0.0000 value on "goalies who can get you to the playoffs." I place lots of value -- as you legitimately must also -- on "goalies who are playoff difference makers." Luongo has proven he is sometimes this, and sometimes not this. When he's on, he's incredible, and when he's not, your team loses playoff series. He cost your team a Game 7 at home this year. If we traded for him, we'd bear the risk we'd acquire someone who'd fail in the clutch. There isn't enough data to know where he fits on the Ward--Price spectrum. That's an inarguably objective assessment.

In addition, and don't take this the wrong way, but our future is significantly brighter than yours. You were better than us this year, but you're about to likely go backwards with your offseason subtractions, we're a step behind Chicago with our prospects. We add EJ and Kariya to this year's team, then have a metric f---ton of cash to spend in summer 2010 with all the skill players except Kariya under contract or contract rights for many years.

Quote:
I can't understand how you 'wouldn't' give up Erik Johnson to get a premiere goalie. Let's say you don't make the playoffs for however many years you control EJ's rights, and at the end of his contract he leaves for another team.

I realize this works both ways, with Roberto and whatnot, mainly because his contract is up at the end of the next year... which provokes many thoughts.
Well, yeah. I mean, I think RL is great, but Cups have actually been won by teams who didn't have him before, and some of these goaltenders are occasionally available in UFA or trade w/o giving up EJ.

Now, you're correct that EJ > Pietrangelo. I don't blame you for shooting higher. But sometimes a deal can't be done, and with EJ it just can't, even if you and I were to agree, the Blues would never do it. So it's an academic discussion. Maybe Luongo is simply untradeable. If so, fair enough.

Quote:
In actuality, we'd do something like Erik Johnson, David Perron, and a mid-round pick.
Perron was our best young player in the playoffs. He was the best guy on either team in Game 4. He responds to every insanely hard challenge. This deal would -- correctly -- not even be considered. Again, it is your right to ask, but our right to tell you that this would never happen -- ever -- for a guy with only one walk year left. Sign RL to an extension, and then we can talk, but even then not for two young roster players, more likely a young highly talented roster player and a first rounder for RL as the core part of the trade. The Blues just aren't in a position, franchise-wise, to shed two core young roster players. We're more able to trade high prospects or high picks than core young roster players, just because of where we are in a turnaround.

Quote:
Only in the minds of casual fans and emotional spectators do player values diminish over one game.
Totally agree. At the same time, your clutch guy did choke in his biggest moment and thus cost the franchise a wasted year. I think RL's value remains very high, but with some clear tarnish. Probably only a round as both ANA/DET are better playoff teams than VAN/CHI, but still cost them a shot at the final four.

Quote:
Schneider for Pietrangelo, then. Bombs away?
Not an even trade. We need more. We could trade you Cole for Schneider, or maybe a first rounder, but I don't think you can move Schneider until you've extended Luongo so it's kind of moot. Most teams have strong goalie prospects in the pipeline, but few have potential superstars on D. Value's nowhere close to equal. Cole for Schneider is actually a good trade if you ink Luongo.

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05-12-2009, 01:49 AM
  #42
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How about Luongo and the rights to Ohlund to OTT for Spezza and Leclaire? VAN then lets the Sedins walk and sign Hossa as an UFA

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05-12-2009, 02:04 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
What do you think he could land?
It didn't take the Amazing Kreskin to anticipate this thread popping up tonight...



I don't think the Canucks can make themselves a better team in any trade that costs them Luongo.

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05-12-2009, 02:06 AM
  #44
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Luongo
+

for

Heatley
+

Not a realistic trade, since Murray will never ask Heatley to waive his NTC, but probably a decent base for a trade.

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05-12-2009, 02:10 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by nK View Post
How about Luongo and the rights to Ohlund to OTT for Spezza and Leclaire? VAN then lets the Sedins walk and sign Hossa as an UFA
It would be a possiblity here is where I think Gillis has the advantage. After letting everything cooled down (As bad as Roberto Played I felt sorry for him after his interview). If Roberto doesn't want to re-sign or says he'll play the wait and see game. I think Gillis then should go public (or at least to the GMs and to Roberto) and create a bidding war between for the most part teams that are an elite goalie away from cup contention. (ie. Philly, to a lesser extent Montreal/Ottawa and possibly some Western team but I don't see him staying in this conference.)

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05-12-2009, 02:56 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by nK View Post
How about Luongo and the rights to Ohlund to OTT for Spezza and Leclaire? VAN then lets the Sedins walk and sign Hossa as an UFA
this will have to happen before july 1st, otherwise ohlund's right is worth nothing. however, i wouldn't want to deal luongo so early in the summer. i want gillis to make sure he exhausted all possibility of extending luongo before dealing him. as much as people want to dump on luongo now, he is still (IMO) one of the best goalie in the league and capable of carrying a team to the cup.
as for the trade, i'm not a big spezza fan. if i'm spending ~ $7M on a player, i rather have luongo. if i HAVE TO trade luongo and philly is willing to pony up carter, i'd be hard press to pass that up.

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Old
05-12-2009, 06:05 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoHo View Post
I think that if DET can get a star goalie, they will become a dynasty.

Datsyuk, McCollum, 2009 1st for Luongo
I wouldnt even trade Datsyuk straight up for Luongo, but why does Detroit have to add McCollum and a 1st?

Datsyuk is nominated for the hart, lady byng and selke, had 97 points this season and is signed to a great deal for the next 5 years..

Luongo is good but he only has 1 year left on his contract..

Detroit having to add anything to this deal makes no sense to me...

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Old
05-12-2009, 09:02 AM
  #48
Andre Benoit Bawls
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To Vancouver:
Heatley, Leclaire, and Kelly

To Ottawa:
Luongo, Raymond, 2nd

Unlike most other trades, provides Vancouver with a legitimate starting goalie, Kelly is sort of an equalizer, because Leclaire+Heatley is worth a bit more than Luongo+Raymond.
Obviously there will be complaints about it, but what do you guys think? As a Sens fan, I would do it, but with a bit of reluctance.

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05-12-2009, 09:02 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
The guy wants to win a cup.

He let his team down this year, and you can expect Vancouver will be making changes in the off-season. Assuming he continues to have a chip on his shoulder and doesn't re-sign this off-season, Vancouver should seriously look at moving him.

What do you think he could land?
Well, enlighten us as to Vancouver's needs. Do you need players or more trading pieces? I.e. picks/prospects.

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05-12-2009, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Zal View Post
Well, enlighten us as to Vancouver's needs. Do you need players or more trading pieces? I.e. picks/prospects.

In my opinion after these playoffs Vancouvers biggest needs are:

1st, a #1 dman. Somebody to take over the game, somebody to settle things down. Ohlund was horrible, he played his last game in a Vancouver jersey in my opinion, Mitchell was overplayed, Salo and Bieksa hurt.

2nd, a dangler. What do I mean? A puck magician who goes to the net. In the St Louis series Andy McDonald gave the Canucks fits, Kane in the Chicago series. Vancouver needs a guy who can grab the puck, make some moves, go to the net and make things happen. Basically the opposite of the twins. They are very good players, but they need all 3 players on a line to make things happen, Vancouver needs a guy to take control.

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