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Tor - Philly trade

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:04 PM
  #1
phlocky
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Tor - Philly trade

I have a feeling that we will see this deal (or something very close to it) happening before this years draft:

To Tor: Philly 1st (21st right now with chance to be 19th), Matt Carle, defensive prospect Bourdon

To Philly: Kaberle, one of the 2nds Tor picked up in trades
.


This deal is essentially 2 seperate deals. The first is Kabs for the 1st and bourdon. I understand that Burke didn't get offered enough at the trade deadline but this might be more than he got then and it might be enough for him to move Kabs. If Tor waits to trade him and get a 1st in next years draft then the pick would have to be around the 12th overall to get about the same quality player you'll be getting at around #20 this year. Bourdon is a quality prospect, not blue chip but still a quality prospect that improved his value in juniors this past season.

The second mini trade is Carle for a 2nd. He a pretty decent 2nd pairing offensive dman who is still young and improving. The Flyers have to send back nearly equal salary to Tor with what we are taking on in Kabs and Carle makes the most sense. A 2nd is probably low end value for Carle but I think Holmgren would do it.


Why this makes sense: For the Flyers, our GM has said that an upgrade at defense is his primary objective for this season. I think he'd love to land J-Bo but I don't think they will get Briere to waive his NMC to let us clear the cap space to make it realistic. Kaberle would be a great alternative and he'd give us 2 top quality defensive pairing for the next 2 seasons. Sbisa should be about ready to take over once Kabs contract expires so it seems like smart asset management to me.

For Toronto, it's not the top topic that has centered around Burke for the off-season but it's still one that I think he's pursuing, moving Kaberle. I think a mid 1st and a quality prospect is about as good as he's going to get in an offer for Kaberle and I think this might be enough to get him to jump. Add to it that he gets a young dman in Carle whom he can evaluate for a few years to see if he could be part of the Leafs long term future and I think Burke does it. This also gives Burke a 2nd pick in the 1st rnd, another quality prospect and a young dman whom he can add part or all of to sweeten the pot to try and move up into the top 3 without giving up Schenn. The 7th + 20th + Bourdon would look very enticing to a team in the top 3.


Honestly, I'd like to see the Flyers just be patient with Carle and keep our pick but I wouldn't be too terribly upset if we upgraded him to Kaberle fo 2 years. I don't suspect that the fans of either team would be too happy with this deal but it just seems to make logical sense to me with Burke and Holmgren be sorta friends from what I've heard. I'm not implying that their frinedship will play a factor in 1 side getting special treatment bu I think it will keep the phone lines open longer and they will be more willing to try and meet a deal that works for both sides, unlike what they may put up with from another GM they don't know as well.

Anyways, flame away.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:07 PM
  #2
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could get better for kabe, mabe a 1st round draftt pick 13-17 and b prospect agree?

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05-13-2009, 03:09 PM
  #3
Nizdizzle
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I wouldn't do that for Kaberle, let alone add a 2nd. The 1st rounder is a nice piece and the Leafs would definately like that as the centerpiece to a deal, but Carle is a salary dump as far as we're concerned (we have a lot of 5, 6, and 7th d-men) and the prospect is average at best.

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05-13-2009, 03:12 PM
  #4
Pukboy5kroner
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I think it's a good trade with just Carle and a 1st for Kaberle. The 2nd from Toronto is a bit much, as is including Bourdon (although, I don't know anything about him, so he might equate to a 2nd round pick).

Carle, a late 1st, and a solid defensive prospect got Boyle and Lukowich, so I could see Carle and a marginally better 1st getting Kaberle.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:16 PM
  #5
ELab2
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Kaberle is not what the Flyers need.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:21 PM
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Pukboy5kroner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Kaberle is not what the Flyers need.
I agree with you there. As an outsider, I think they could use a solid defensive d-man and an upgrade in goal. They are in a good spot for the next few years, but just need to address a couple minor holes.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:23 PM
  #7
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
I think it's a good trade with just Carle and a 1st for Kaberle. The 2nd from Toronto is a bit much, as is including Bourdon (although, I don't know anything about him, so he might equate to a 2nd round pick).

Carle, a late 1st, and a solid defensive prospect got Boyle and Lukowich, so I could see Carle and a marginally better 1st getting Kaberle.
Philly's is a mid 1st this year and in a very good draft year.

If it's going to be Carle and a 1st then the Flyers might just wait until after the draft and make it a 2010 1st rnd pick.


I know fans won't like it but I still think it's fair. Carle isn't just a salary dump, he's a quality 2nd pairing dman, NOT a bottom pairing guy. I just have a feeling this is just about a done deal.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:25 PM
  #8
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Kaberle is not what the Flyers need.
I don't necessarily dissagree, but Holmgren apparently likes Kaberle and from his comments after the end of our season I think that Kaberle will be the defensive upgrade he implied.

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05-13-2009, 03:26 PM
  #9
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Good proposal IMO

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:29 PM
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DougGilmour93
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Toronto could do better elsewhere.

Unless Philly wanted to offer somethng like this....


JVR, Carle, 1st in 09 (someone said it was 20th)

for

Kaberle, 2nd round pick in 09, 5th in 09

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:34 PM
  #11
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I don't think we need or want Carle. I rather have Stralman taking a spot on the roster than Carle.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:39 PM
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ELab2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I don't necessarily dissagree, but Holmgren apparently likes Kaberle and from his comments after the end of our season I think that Kaberle will be the defensive upgrade he implied.
I disagree. We need someone who will clear the crease and bang bodies, if anyone knows that it's Homer. He definitely wants a corps where all the all the guys can move pucks but that doesn't mean that's the primary need above all other traits.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:45 PM
  #13
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Toronto could do better elsewhere.

Unless Philly wanted to offer somethng like this....


JVR, Carle, 1st in 09 (someone said it was 20th)

for

Kaberle, 2nd round pick in 09, 5th in 09

I think it's pretty foolish to believe that Kaberle could bring you an elite blue chip prospect and a pick around #20 in this years draft. If Burke had been offered anything even close to this at the deadline then he'd have jumped all over it. Simply put, Kabs isn't getting this kind of return.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:45 PM
  #14
Pelle31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Toronto could do better elsewhere.

Unless Philly wanted to offer somethng like this....


JVR, Carle, 1st in 09 (someone said it was 20th)

for

Kaberle, 2nd round pick in 09, 5th in 09
Thanks but no thanks, Toronto can look elsewhere. Besides if any Toronto defenseman is going to get traded it will be Kubina instead of Kaberle.

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Old
05-13-2009, 03:47 PM
  #15
seanlinden
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Its definitely not a terrible premise for the deal; but there are definitely a couple problems....

#1. Philadelphia is in cap hell with the extension promised to Lupul. Adding another $1million to Carle's salary just may not be possible. They are already at $53 million committed on the cap for next year which does include almost a full complement of skaters (19/21); but no goaltenders. Realistically, I see them having to basically do what we did with McCabe and force Briere out if they want to make any upgrades. If they're able to do so, then Bouwmeester could be a realistic target along with Beauchemin & Komisarek (meaning that the incentive to trade for Kaberle would be minimal at this year's draft).

#2. The Leafs don't really have a strong interest in Carle. He's a guy who RW definitely did get the best out of, but since leaving SJ showed that he was just a byproduct of playing on a great team. At this point, saying that he's better than Ian White would be very debatable; and there's no real reason to acquire two players of that calibre & skillset.

The leafs really need some young talent up front. JvR is obviously at the top of the leafs list, but maybe not attainable. A realstic draft day deal would problably see Lupul head to Toronto along with Philly's 1st rounder and a mid-level prospect. Philly would then problably trade Carle for either some young help up front or to replace the draft pick; perhaps even up the pacakge and get Harding out of Minnesota.

Alternatively, I could see Tlusty included (giving them a winger who can play immidiately for cheap) and the prospect turn from a mid-level to a guy like JvR. Philly's system wouldn't really need a potential star like JvR when they already have Gagne, Carter, Hartnell, Richards, Giroux, Briere and Tlusty.

If Philly could land themselves Kaberle and a cheap young winger like Tlusty for lupul, van riemsdyk, and a downgrade from late 1st round to mid-2nd round; then trade Carle for help in goal; they'd really set themselves up nicely for the future as they wait for guys like Sbisa to develop. It would go a long way to improving their cap position aswell.

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05-13-2009, 04:00 PM
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Not interested in Carle and I don't suspect that Burke would be either... certainly not enough to give up a 2nd rounder for him. Also, I think Parent or Nodl should be included instead of Bourdon.

If its a first and a prospect that Burke is looking at for Kaberle, do you think that a first ~20th and a middle-tier prospect like Bourdon is the best that he will be offered? If Burke can't do better than that, he would probably just hold on to Kaberle. There isn't much reason to believe that he would lower his asking price so drastically from the deadline (1st, top prospect, young player) to the draft (1st, mid prospect - as determined by your proposal).

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05-13-2009, 04:00 PM
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I think that Kaberle is staying in TO. Kubina is on his way out.

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05-13-2009, 04:01 PM
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embracedbias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelle31 View Post
Thanks but no thanks, Toronto can look elsewhere. Besides if any Toronto defenseman is going to get traded it will be Kubina instead of Kaberle.
Why do you say that?

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05-13-2009, 04:05 PM
  #19
weems
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Philly's is a mid 1st this year and in a very good draft year.

If it's going to be Carle and a 1st then the Flyers might just wait until after the draft and make it a 2010 1st rnd pick.


I know fans won't like it but I still think it's fair. Carle isn't just a salary dump, he's a quality 2nd pairing dman, NOT a bottom pairing guy. I just have a feeling this is just about a done deal.
What in the world would make you think this?

No thanks to Carle, hes HORRIBLE defensively.

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Old
05-13-2009, 04:15 PM
  #20
Pelle31
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Why do you say that?
Maybe it's due to the fact that Kaberle is signed to a cap-friendly contract for the next 2 years and Kubina is in the final year of his contract and can't dictate as to where he wants to go [if I'm not mistaken he lost his no-trade clause from draft day or July 1st to Aug.15th of this year because the Leafs didn't make the playoffs this past season]. So if Burke can get another 1st rounder in this year's draft plus a mid-level prospect, I think he'd consider moving Kubina.

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Old
05-13-2009, 04:15 PM
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ELab2
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What in the world would make you think this?

No thanks to Carle, hes HORRIBLE defensively.
No he's not. He's average. Generally speaking when in his own zone he's pretty damn solid, the problem for him this year was making a lot of poor decisions at the point leading to turnovers and rushes the other way

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Old
05-13-2009, 04:18 PM
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Norm MacDonald
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If Philly goes for a Toronto defenseman, I think it will be Kubina. He is more physical (something that they need to add to their D corp) and won't cost nearly as much.

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Old
05-13-2009, 04:22 PM
  #23
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Pretty good offer, maybe change the Toronto 2nd to a future 3rd.

Even if Burke doesn't want Carle, he still has value.

Burke could just flip him for something else - perhaps a late 1st or more of a two-way defenseman like Hamhuis.

And it's not like Kaberle has ever been considered great defensively. Carle can still be a PP QB with 45+ potential.



But I'm wondering if Philly will have the cap room?

Plus they shouldn't do this before seeing if they have a crack at J-Bo.

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Old
05-13-2009, 04:25 PM
  #24
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
If Philly goes for a Toronto defenseman, I think it will be Kubina. He is more physical (something that they need to add to their D corp) and won't cost nearly as much.
I disagree. Kaberle commands more on the open market, but Kubina is problably more valuable long term to the leafs.

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Old
05-13-2009, 04:25 PM
  #25
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I think Carle's best years are in front of him. He is overpaid, so I don't think we could get much for him in a trade and I like his upside, so I wouldn't mind keeping him on the team.

I like Randy Jones, but I don't think the Flyers can afford to keep him on next year, nor do I think his play last season made a very compelling argument in his favor. He should be waived/traded before Carle IMO. His contract is much further away from his value IMO. I also don't think Kaberle is really what our team needs.

I'd like to see:

Timonen - Coburn
Carle - Parent
Sbisa - Montador?

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