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Old
05-15-2009, 09:57 AM
  #126
the overrated
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Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
What did they pay Sturm for his 50-60 points?
A little more than he deserved, IMHO, especially when the NMC is factored in.

Not sure how relevant that is to this conversation, though.

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05-15-2009, 10:08 AM
  #127
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A little more than he deserved, IMHO, especially when the NMC is factored in.

Not sure how relevant that is to this conversation, though.
They gave Marco Sturm who was in his peak years and maxing out around 59 points 3.5 million. Bergeron's 5 million was for a developing 21 year old who had scored 70 and 73 points way before his probable peak years. He's been derailed by 2 major head injuries which will probably cost him 2 years on his development trend. I'm saying he gets back on the trend line for 90 point seasons when he reaches his peak years of 24-29 years old. They paid upfront for those numbers while for Sturm they paid for present numbers. If you say Bergeron will now be a Sturm type producer then he is overpaid. But if he's a Sturm type producer at 23-24 then by 28 he should be far more than that. Bergeron producing like Sturm is regression but he's better than Sturm even now.

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05-15-2009, 10:10 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by the overrated View Post
A little more than he deserved, IMHO, especially when the NMC is factored in.

Not sure how relevant that is to this conversation, though.
Yeah, using one mistake as an excuse for another is never a good idea.

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05-15-2009, 10:15 AM
  #129
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I hear ya - feel almost the same about Ryder most nights...

But - honestly - HABFACTOR aside - Komisarek is a very good player.

But then again - you are right he is a stinking HAB.
Ryder Vs Komisarek isn't even comparable.

Ryder was a guy that didn't fit in there. He didn't dive, he didn't whine, he didn't hide behind the refs and he wasn't a dirty player.

Komisarek is all of the above, and frankly, as shown this season, a ****** defenseman. He's hits and blocks shots, that's it, he was made to look far better defensively by Markov and Hammer... with Markov gone his weaknesses were exposed.

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05-15-2009, 10:25 AM
  #130
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For those saying trade Bergeron for a puck moving D, what do you forsee for this club down the middle the year after next.

Get this, after next season we are losing Marc Savard. I can guarantee it.

We will be up against the cap next year, whether you trade Bergy or not, and the next season we will need to sign Lucic, Wheeler and Savard.

Lucic is a lock to be signed. Wheeler will likely be as well.

Savard... take a guess at what his contract demands will be. He signed he for 5 mill when many said he was dependant upon top end wingers, had zero defense, and had no playoff experience. Now he's proven himself to be one of the best playmakers in the league, reliable defensively and can turn coal into diamonds.

You think he'll resign for 5mill?

So would you rather Savard and Krejci as our centers next season, then Krejci holding down the fort after wards? Or would you rather Bergeron, Krejci as this teams #1 and 2 going forward?

You put Bergeron between Sturm and Ryder, give him PP time at the forward position, while Krejci moves up to point between Kessel and Lucic and Bergeron puts up 70-80 points easy.

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05-15-2009, 10:28 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
They gave Marco Sturm who was in his peak years and maxing out around 59 points 3.5 million. Bergeron's 5 million was for a developing 21 year old who had scored 70 and 73 points way before his probable peak years. He's been derailed by 2 major head injuries which will probably cost him 2 years on his development trend. I'm saying he gets back on the trend line for 90 point seasons when he reaches his peak years of 24-29 years old. They paid upfront for those numbers while for Sturm they paid for present numbers. If you say Bergeron will now be a Sturm type producer then he is overpaid. But if he's a Sturm type producer at 23-24 then by 28 he should be far more than that. Bergeron producing like Sturm is regression but he's better than Sturm even now.
I think we're just going in circles at this point.

You think that he's destined to be a 90 point player, and thus he'll justify the cap hit.

I don't think that he was going reach that level even before the Jones hit, and after the concussions I'm not certain that he'll even reach the 70s with consistency.

I can't see either of us changing each other's minds on this one.

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05-15-2009, 10:43 AM
  #132
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I think Savard stays...he loves the passion of being a Bruin too much.

He will take $6M.

I think that is fair.

It would be a mistake to let him go. Extend him now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
For those saying trade Bergeron for a puck moving D, what do you forsee for this club down the middle the year after next.

Get this, after next season we are losing Marc Savard. I can guarantee it.

We will be up against the cap next year, whether you trade Bergy or not, and the next season we will need to sign Lucic, Wheeler and Savard.

Lucic is a lock to be signed. Wheeler will likely be as well.

Savard... take a guess at what his contract demands will be. He signed he for 5 mill when many said he was dependant upon top end wingers, had zero defense, and had no playoff experience. Now he's proven himself to be one of the best playmakers in the league, reliable defensively and can turn coal into diamonds.

You think he'll resign for 5mill?

So would you rather Savard and Krejci as our centers next season, then Krejci holding down the fort after wards? Or would you rather Bergeron, Krejci as this teams #1 and 2 going forward?

You put Bergeron between Sturm and Ryder, give him PP time at the forward position, while Krejci moves up to point between Kessel and Lucic and Bergeron puts up 70-80 points easy.

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05-15-2009, 10:45 AM
  #133
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[QUOTE=corpfan1;19581849]I think Savard stays...he loves the passion of being a Bruin too much.

He will take $6M.

I think that is fair.

It would be a mistake to let him go. Extend him now.[/
QUOTE]

I totally agree with this. What an excellent player Savard is. We sit next to the B's bench and Savvy was hurtin last night but was playing anyway.

There is not a more passionate player on the team.

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05-15-2009, 10:55 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
For those saying trade Bergeron for a puck moving D, what do you forsee for this club down the middle the year after next.

Get this, after next season we are losing Marc Savard. I can guarantee it.

We will be up against the cap next year, whether you trade Bergy or not, and the next season we will need to sign Lucic, Wheeler and Savard.

Lucic is a lock to be signed. Wheeler will likely be as well.

Savard... take a guess at what his contract demands will be. He signed he for 5 mill when many said he was dependant upon top end wingers, had zero defense, and had no playoff experience. Now he's proven himself to be one of the best playmakers in the league, reliable defensively and can turn coal into diamonds.

You think he'll resign for 5mill?

So would you rather Savard and Krejci as our centers next season, then Krejci holding down the fort after wards? Or would you rather Bergeron, Krejci as this teams #1 and 2 going forward?

You put Bergeron between Sturm and Ryder, give him PP time at the forward position, while Krejci moves up to point between Kessel and Lucic and Bergeron puts up 70-80 points easy.
With you on this one.

Savard will get the better return now that will help us more in the short & long term. PLus Bergy is, what, 10 years younger?

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05-15-2009, 11:06 AM
  #135
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I don't know if Bergeron will ever be a 90+ point center, but if you can get 60-75 points and selke caliber defense out of him, he's well worth the $4.75 M. If healthy, I think he's fully capable of being that player next season.

I agree we Kaoz, we should probably be preparing ourselves for life without Savard after next season.

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05-15-2009, 11:07 AM
  #136
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There's a good # of Bruins I'd want to trade before Bergeron. The return for Bergy isn't going to be that great anyway.

Bergeron really stepped up last night.

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05-15-2009, 11:08 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flannelman View Post
With you on this one.

Savard will get the better return now that will help us more in the short & long term. PLus Bergy is, what, 10 years younger?
10 years younger, far better defensively, and his ceiling isn't that off Savard offensively.

Also, people are right. One of these centers will eventually have to go. Krejci is staying, that much is certain, so who is the better complimentary #2... Bergeron or Savard? I take Bergeron... he's a bigger center, more physical, younger, our best faceoff man, and our best two way player.

For those using his offensive numbers this season... do you not remember what he was like when he was leaned on offensively and was surrounded by our best offensive players? He was a consistent offensive presence on this club.

He'll be back to that very, very soon.

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05-15-2009, 11:12 AM
  #138
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Don't be so sure about Savard returning. I hope he does, but am hearing things about him wanting to be closer to his kids. That could all change, but something to keep in mind.

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05-15-2009, 11:28 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by the overrated View Post
I think we're just going in circles at this point.

You think that he's destined to be a 90 point player, and thus he'll justify the cap hit.

I don't think that he was going reach that level even before the Jones hit, and after the concussions I'm not certain that he'll even reach the 70s with consistency.

I can't see either of us changing each other's minds on this one.
OK. Age is paramount or should be when signing players. The vast majority of players peak between years 6 and 9 and so I'm convinced we have not seen the best of Bergeron,headache or not. I understand your post concussion concerns but not your pre-concussion projections.

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05-15-2009, 11:32 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
They gave Marco Sturm who was in his peak years and maxing out around 59 points 3.5 million. Bergeron's 5 million was for a developing 21 year old who had scored 70 and 73 points way before his probable peak years. He's been derailed by 2 major head injuries which will probably cost him 2 years on his development trend. I'm saying he gets back on the trend line for 90 point seasons when he reaches his peak years of 24-29 years old. They paid upfront for those numbers while for Sturm they paid for present numbers. If you say Bergeron will now be a Sturm type producer then he is overpaid. But if he's a Sturm type producer at 23-24 then by 28 he should be far more than that. Bergeron producing like Sturm is regression but he's better than Sturm even now.
I respect PB, but I just can't see him scoring 90 points. That will put him in the top 15-20 in scoring right?

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05-15-2009, 11:36 AM
  #141
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You're talking about a 5% chance at best that a player's performance peaks before his body and mind.
Brain injuries have a way of affecting those chances.

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05-15-2009, 11:38 AM
  #142
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Bergeron probably does not have the point total in him that Savard does, but:

1) He's better on the PK

2) He's a better faceoff guy

3) Even post-concussion, he's more physical

4) He's a lot younger

4) He's capable of 75 pts with the right linemates.

One of the centers probably has to go, given that BOS is the deepest there with Sobotka, Hamill, Arniel in the pipeline.

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05-15-2009, 11:40 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post

One of the centers probably has to go, given that BOS is the deepest there with Sobotka, Hamill, Arniel in the pipeline.
I think the one glaring thing with our centers, current and prospect, we don't have any immediate big center... Colbourne is, but it would see he's got a few more years of seasoning....

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Old
05-15-2009, 11:42 AM
  #144
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I respect PB, but I just can't see him scoring 90 points. That will put him in the top 15-20 in scoring right?
If a player knocks down consecutive seasons of 73 and 70 points at 20 and 21 years old and fails to improve upon that then that's the exception. 39 out of 42 20 year olds that have scored 70 points in hockey history eclipsed those earlier numbers regularly later in their careers. None after severe head injuries that I know of.

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05-15-2009, 11:43 AM
  #145
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Brain injuries have a way of affecting those chances.
No data?

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