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Old
05-16-2009, 04:03 PM
  #51
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Ah, yes, the future. The future where all players develop into great players and where they are still cheap.

There is no 1st pairing stud potential in Coburn, Parent or Sbisa.
ROFL @ you.

I'm not even going to bother discussing this with you because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are acting like to have intimate knowledge of how these guys played this year when you've seen what, maybe 3 of their games this season??? You are useless.

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05-16-2009, 04:05 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Bobby Smash View Post
hiller for giroux.
Hiller for Nodl is more like it.

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Old
05-16-2009, 04:07 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
ROFL @ you.

I'm not even going to bother discussing this with you because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are acting like to have intimate knowledge of how these guys played this year when you've seen what, maybe 3 of their games this season??? You are useless.
I now have enough material to build my "phlocky post generator". It's not even difficult to be honest. Just start every message with "ROFL" and then add random noise with no substance.

PS. I've seen plenty of Flyers games.

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05-16-2009, 04:09 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
ROFL @ you.

I'm not even going to bother discussing this with you because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are acting like to have intimate knowledge of how these guys played this year when you've seen what, maybe 3 of their games this season??? You are useless.
phlocky, you'd do a better job getting your point across if you didn't insult everyone and have a "holier than thou" attitude.

Parent and Coburn may not turn into "stud" first pairing guys but they will be good first pairing guys. There are very few studs.

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Old
05-16-2009, 04:15 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
Roy or Luongo caliber goalies don't become available often, and typically under unique circumstances. That could be a long wait until the next one. Major tiff with the organization and/or impending UFA status and stuck negotiations ... it'll happen again with SOME elite goalie in his prime somewhere down the road, but those two events happened 10 years apart. Most of the other name goalies that have been moved over the years had issues (declining play, salaries, etc.).

Developing a goalie through the draft typically takes several years, and the hit rate is low. If a team doesn't seem to have much of an eye for developing goalies ... well, there's a reason some teams haven't had a star goalie in decades.

Still, if you're patient enough, those are certainly legitimate low-cost options.

The less patient low-cost option would be trading a pick for someone's reject ... but for every 2nd rounder that nabs a Giguere or Kipper, there's a lot more 2nd-5th round picks that land a Cechmanek or Lalime or something worse, where the guy ends up failing in the playoffs (which is the goal here, correct me if I'm wrong).

If you step up a bit you can indeed land a Vokoun type for picks as a surplus goalie ... but again the availability of that caliber of goalie is less frequent, and it took multiple picks (including one in the top 10). Not sure there's anything like that on tap this offseason unless Giguere is willing to move.

Of course, I'm not really disagreeing with you, as I'm almost certain that if it were Hiller for Gagne there'd have to be a bit more from the Ducks' side of things, and not just chump change.
This is a great post, and I'm pretty much in total agreement with you.

I am by no means saying that the Flyers should or should not do a Gagne for Hiller trade, at least as the base of a deal. All I have been saying is that no goalie in recent history, regardless of how proven or good they were, has ever brought back a player such as Gagne in return. That can't be disputed, regardless of what some on these boards think goalies should be worth.

You bring up a very good point about the reasons elite goalies don't bring about a very large return. More often than not, they just aren't available, and if they are, there are usually factors involved that drive down their value.

On the flip side, semi-proven goalies or prospects bring a very, very limited return value-wise because the nature of the goalie position is so volatile. For every 10 guys who "breakout", 8 are just as likely to never reach such heights again as they are to become the next Patrick Roy. This is why they don't have very high value, not because I don't think they're worth a gamble, or because of someone's opinion on HF Boards. Its not about my opinion, or anyone elses' for that matter. Its about the history of market value as it pertains to goalies, which most posters on here choose to ignore, or just can't wrap their brains around the comprehension of the concept (and I'm not referring to you, because you clearly get it).

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Old
05-16-2009, 07:16 PM
  #56
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I think Hiller can be compared to Leclaire when you are talking about trade value. Both had 1 good year (sub 2.3 GAA, .919 sv %), both had good defensive systems in front of them, around the same age, and both could be traded around the same time.

The Leclaire trade was Leclaire + 2nd for Vermette.

So the question is...What do the Flyers have, that Anaheim wants, that is about equal in value to Vermette minus a 2nd round pick?

Vermette (26 years old) will give you about 50-60 points a year, 15-25 goals, good defense, and great faceoffs...however, he is only signed for 1 more year.

Lupul (25 years old) will give you about 50-60 points, 20-30 goals, average defense, size and some physicality on the wing, and is signed for 4 more years.

IMO, Lupul + 2nd is about equal in value to Vermette, and for all of you that can't do algebra, that means Lupul=Hiller.

Now the dreaded question is does Anaheim want Lupul back? Which ofcourse none of us have a clue. If they don't, and it is Gagne who they are after...then clearly, after looking at the Leclaire deal, atleast a 1st round pick would have to be included with Hiller for Gagne. Gagne is much better than Vermette, and Hiller hasn't done anything more than Leclaire.

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05-16-2009, 07:24 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
I think Hiller can be compared to Leclaire when you are talking about trade value. Both had 1 good year (sub 2.3 GAA, .919 sv %), both had good defensive systems in front of them, around the same age, and both could be traded around the same time.

The Leclaire trade was Leclaire + 2nd for Vermette.

So the question is...What do the Flyers have, that Anaheim wants, that is about equal in value to Vermette minus a 2nd round pick?

Vermette (26 years old) will give you about 50-60 points a year, 15-25 goals, good defense, and great faceoffs...however, he is only signed for 1 more year.

Lupul (25 years old) will give you about 50-60 points, 20-30 goals, average defense, size and some physicality on the wing, and is signed for 4 more years.

IMO, Lupul + 2nd is about equal in value to Vermette, and for all of you that can't do algebra, that means Lupul=Hiller.

Now the dreaded question is does Anaheim want Lupul back? Which ofcourse none of us have a clue. If they don't, and it is Gagne who they are after...then clearly, after looking at the Leclaire deal, atleast a 1st round pick would have to be included with Hiller for Gagne. Gagne is much better than Vermette, and Hiller hasn't done anything more than Leclaire.
Reasonable logic, but I doubt you get any Ducks fan to see it this way. They will all tell you that Hiller is ten billion times better than LeClair and that Hiller should return Gagne + OUR 1st. However, you actually based your proposal on similar deals from the recent past.

One change I'd probably have to suggest is that because Lupul is already signed to a pay raise for next year (not bad like some say but not very cap frindly either) that the Flyers may have to include a pick to make it worth while to the Ducks, probably one of the 3rds we have this year.

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Old
05-16-2009, 07:26 PM
  #58
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I think Giguere would waive his no trade clause if he knows he will be number one in Philly. Hiller did give up weak goals during the playoffs, but I think Allaire will work with him in the off season to improve his game.

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05-16-2009, 07:30 PM
  #59
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I'd trade Hiller for Gagne

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Old
05-16-2009, 07:31 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
I think Hiller can be compared to Leclaire when you are talking about trade value. Both had 1 good year (sub 2.3 GAA, .919 sv %), both had good defensive systems in front of them, around the same age, and both could be traded around the same time.

The Leclaire trade was Leclaire + 2nd for Vermette.
Leclaire in his 12 games played this season recorded 0.867 saves percentage and 3.83 GAA.

That's not exactly going to raise anyones trade value is it? Whether he can get healthy and back in form is still up in the air but you're not going to get full value for a player in his situation.

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05-16-2009, 07:36 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by jiggsawpuzzle35 View Post
I think Giguere would waive his no trade clause if he knows he will be number one in Philly
He would have a well known personal reason for *not* waiving his NTC for Philly. It's nothing against the team/city but rather he'd likely only go to a west coast team if he as asked to waive it because of that reason.

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05-16-2009, 07:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
I'd trade Hiller for Gagne


So would anyone from the Ana POV, but you get laughed at from Philly. The FAIR deal is Hiller + An 1st in 09 for Gagne.

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05-16-2009, 07:42 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
He would have a well known personal reason for *not* waiving his NTC for Philly. It's nothing against the team/city but rather he'd likely only go to a west coast team if he as asked to waive it because of that reason.

Exactly why talks of JSG to Philly are just plain silly (yes, I did that on purpose).

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05-16-2009, 07:44 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Leclaire in his 12 games played this season recorded 0.867 saves percentage and 3.83 GAA.

That's not exactly going to raise anyones trade value is it? Whether he can get healthy and back in form is still up in the air but you're not going to get full value for a player in his situation.
I'm not completely familiar with Leclaire this year, but wasn't he playing injured when he did play this season? I can't see there being a significant effect on the value, perhaps thats why the 2nd round pick was added? Or maybe it was a lower pick? The point is, Vermette was the main piece of the deal, so I think you guys would get similar value for Hiller if you trade him.

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05-16-2009, 07:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Now the dreaded question is does Anaheim want Lupul back? Which ofcourse none of us have a clue.
I would guess probably not. Lupul seemed an imperfect fit in Carlyle's system. The talent level is about right, but he's just the wrong kind of player, who plays the wrong forward position for Anaheim's needs. This is where a 3 way deal might come in handy.

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If they don't, and it is Gagne who they are after...then clearly, after looking at the Leclaire deal, atleast a 1st round pick would have to be included with Hiller for Gagne. Gagne is much better than Vermette, and Hiller hasn't done anything more than Leclaire.
I agree with your general premise, but I wouldn't say he hasn't done ANYTHING more than Leclaire. Leclaire's had a bit more regular season success, but has yet to even play a single game in the NHL playoffs, nevermind steal a series against a #1 seed and give his team a shot to win against Detroit.

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05-16-2009, 08:04 PM
  #66
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I'm not completely familiar with Leclaire this year, but wasn't he playing injured when he did play this season? I can't see there being a significant effect on the value
He played seven games to start the season before his ankle injury. He was sub .900 and 3.5+ GAA then too.

Can't see a season missed due to injury having an effect on trade value even when he was playing terrible before the injury? Seriously?

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05-16-2009, 08:05 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
Hiller was in his 2nd pro season, and this was his breakout one clearly. He's only 26 years old, and proved he can handle playoff pressures. He'll likely only get better each year.
Will Hiller play like he did with out Pronger or Niedermayer in front of him?

I know Gagne will score 35-40 goals playing with out Forsberg.

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05-16-2009, 08:09 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by mmbt View Post
I would guess probably not. Lupul seemed an imperfect fit in Carlyle's system. The talent level is about right, but he's just the wrong kind of player, who plays the wrong forward position for Anaheim's needs. This is where a 3 way deal might come in handy.
I could see Burke going after Lupul since he wants to make the playoffs next season. Perhaps a 3-way with Toronto where they get Lupul, Philly gets Hiller and you guys get Stajan? I'm not really sure what your needs are though.

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I agree with your general premise, but I wouldn't say he hasn't done ANYTHING more than Leclaire. Leclaire's had a bit more regular season success, but has yet to even play a single game in the NHL playoffs, nevermind steal a series against a #1 seed and give his team a shot to win against Detroit.
True, he does have that over Leclaire. Although Biron carried us to the ECF's last season, and it doesn't appear to be helping his cause...not that that really has anything to do with this.

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05-16-2009, 08:15 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
He played seven games to start the season before his ankle injury. He was sub .900 and 3.5+ GAA then too.

Can't see a season missed due to injury having an effect on trade value even when he was playing terrible before the injury? Seriously?
You are looking at a 12 game sample size, where he was injured. And he put up amazing numbers the season before. So no, I don't think that Columbus would of gotten very much more than Vermette even if he wasn't injured.

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05-16-2009, 08:17 PM
  #70
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You are looking at a 12 game sample size, where he was injured. And he put up amazing numbers the season before. So no, I don't think that Columbus would of gotten very much more than Vermette even if he wasn't injured.
LOL, yeah, he CERTAINLY wouldn't have returned Gagne or a player like him, something that many Ana fans apparently believe that Hiller is worth.

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05-16-2009, 08:42 PM
  #71
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You are looking at a 12 game sample size, where he was injured. And he put up amazing numbers the season before. So no, I don't think that Columbus would of gotten very much more than Vermette even if he wasn't injured.
Regardless, a goalie with no playoff experience, coming off a missed season with no certainty of ever getting fully healthy, with a cap hit of 3.8 and a 2nd rounder got a good player in Vermette.

A better goalie, with playoff experience, coming off an amazing season with stellar playoffs, with a cap hit of 1.3 plus a 2nd rounder equals what? Maybe a 30 goal scorer like Gagne?

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05-16-2009, 09:06 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Regardless, a goalie with no playoff experience, coming off a missed season with no certainty of ever getting fully healthy, with a cap hit of 3.8 and a 2nd rounder got a good player in Vermette.

A better goalie, with playoff experience, coming off an amazing season with stellar playoffs, with a cap hit of 1.3 plus a 2nd rounder equals what? Maybe a 30 goal scorer like Gagne?
Gagne scored 47 goals in 72 games a couple years ago when he played with Forsberg. Now I know Getzlaf isn't Forsberg, but he is definitely a more creative offensive player than Richards. There is no doubt in my mind that if Gagne played with Getzlaf, he would top 40 goals yet again. When Gagne played on a line with Giroux this season, he looked like he was with Forsberg again...he has a great feel for where to go with creative linemates, and he can finish.

Even if he doesn't hit 40, he has pretty much been a PPG player the past 4 years, and scored 34 goals this past season. The point is you aren't just getting a 30 goal scorer, you are getting a guy who can finish with the best of them, has scored 40+ goals twice already (once with Forsberg playing 40 games), a great defender and a very good playmaker.

Gagne is a HUGE step up from Vermette, and Hiller is not a HUGE step up from Leclaire + 2nd, so something significant would have to be added along with Hiller.

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05-16-2009, 09:10 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Regardless, a goalie with no playoff experience, coming off a missed season with no certainty of ever getting fully healthy, with a cap hit of 3.8 and a 2nd rounder got a good player in Vermette.

A better goalie, with playoff experience, coming off an amazing season with stellar playoffs, with a cap hit of 1.3 plus a 2nd rounder equals what? Maybe a 30 goal scorer like Gagne?
Do me a favor and post a past trade where a goalie returned a player the calibre of Gagne. Oh, nevermind. I always ask for the same thing, and I always get the same thing, which is nothing. The Vermette swap is about the best you'll be able to come up with, and make no mistake, Vermette isn't even in the same stratosphere as Gagne.

If you want to believe Hiller is worth Gagne, then be my guest. If you do end up trading him, you are bound to be disappointed when the return is much, much less than that.

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05-16-2009, 09:13 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Regardless, a goalie with no playoff experience, coming off a missed season with no certainty of ever getting fully healthy, with a cap hit of 3.8 and a 2nd rounder got a good player in Vermette.

A better goalie, with playoff experience, coming off an amazing season with stellar playoffs, with a cap hit of 1.3 plus a 2nd rounder equals what? Maybe a 30 goal scorer like Gagne?
Who's to say he's better. He had one good year, that was it. He could EASILY be the next Jim Cary, oh wait, didn't he actually carry his team to the cup finals before losing in the playoffs??? I'll give you that he has mor trade value than LeClair but not even close to a Gagne type player. Keep dreaming.

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05-16-2009, 09:33 PM
  #75
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Do me a favor and post a past trade where a goalie returned a player the calibre of Gagne. Oh, nevermind. I always ask for the same thing, and I always get the same thing, which is nothing.
I'll give you one. Brad Richards & Johan Holmqvist for Mike Smith, Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and a 4th. Take away the minor pieces and we get something like Richards for Smith, Jokinen, 4th. Equivalent from the Ducks would be Hiller, Christensen, 4th. I'll give you those pieces even while Richards is more proven and arguably better than Gagne.

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If you do end up trading him, you are bound to be disappointed when the return is much, much less than that.
Funny how that works both ways isn't it?

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Let's make a compromise. Hartnell for Hiller, 2nd -10


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