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Old
05-16-2009, 09:02 PM
  #76
Shadow Flyer
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
I'll give you one. Brad Richards & Johan Holmqvist for Mike Smith, Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and a 4th. Take away the minor pieces and we get something like Richards for Smith, Jokinen, 4th. Equivalent from the Ducks would be Hiller, Christensen, 4th. I'll give you those pieces even while Richards is more proven and arguably better than Gagne.
Totally different situation, as Dallas was trying to shed Richards' contract. The Flyers don't have any problem with Gagnes' cap hit. So, going by that logic, we'll give you Briere (ridding a cap hit like Richards) and Niittymaki for Hiller, Ott, Barch and a 4th.

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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Funny how that works both ways isn't it?
Funny how you tried to spin, isn't it?

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Let's make a compromise. Hartnell for Hiller, 2nd -10
No thanks.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Totally different situation, as Dallas was trying to shed Richards' contract.
Source? I find this very interesting because Dallas was infact acquiring Richards.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Funny how you tried to spin, isn't it?
My statement holds true none the less. Do me a favor, find a deal where a star player nets anywhere near the amount people on HF thought he'd be worth. I think you'll have a harder time finding it than i had finding an example for you.

I don't think trading for Ott and Barch in order to use them as trade bait is a viable option for Anaheim at this time.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:14 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Source?
You really need a source to understand that the Lightning were strapped by the contracts of the "Big 3" (especially with their internal budget), and that Richards had (and still has) one of the worst contracts in the league? Sorry, I'm not gonna do something for you that you can use google to do yourself.

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My statement holds true none the less. Do me a favor, find a deal where a star player nets anywhere the amount people on HF thought he'd be worth. I think you'll have a harder time finding it than i had finding an example for you.
That may be true, which only further validates my point that you aren't getting a Gagne calibre player for Hiller, unless you are taking someone's bad contract in return.

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05-16-2009, 09:21 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Sorry, I'm not gonna do something for you that you can use google to do yourself.
So you got nothing. Okey.

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That may be true, which only further validates my point that you aren't getting a Gagne calibre player for Hiller, unless you are taking someone's bad contract in return.
Actually no. The point it validates is Gagne won't fetch as much as you think.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:24 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
He would have a well known personal reason for *not* waiving his NTC for Philly. It's nothing against the team/city but rather he'd likely only go to a west coast team if he as asked to waive it because of that reason.
honestly if a deal was set up the flyers are a pretty class organisation id think theyd try and set him up with a similar specialist in the area. philly has 4 medical schools and some of the nations top doctors. oddly enough for exactly that reason chicago has the best eye specialists in the country which might faicilitate an easier transition.

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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
I'll give you one. Brad Richards & Johan Holmqvist for Mike Smith, Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and a 4th. Take away the minor pieces and we get something like Richards for Smith, Jokinen, 4th. Equivalent from the Ducks would be Hiller, Christensen, 4th. I'll give you those pieces even while Richards is more proven and arguably better than Gagne.
tampa was actively trying to trade richards due to a real cap crunch and his near 8 million dollar cap hit you wanna put a package together for briere?


Let's make a compromise. Hartnell for Hiller, 2nd -10[/QUOTE]

first gagne now hartnell. if you want a fair deal how about asking for someone we may even be looking to trade and not guys your gonna have to overpay to get.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:27 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
I'll give you one. Brad Richards & Johan Holmqvist for Mike Smith, Jussi Jokinen, Jeff Halpern and a 4th. Take away the minor pieces and we get something like Richards for Smith, Jokinen, 4th. Equivalent from the Ducks would be Hiller, Christensen, 4th. I'll give you those pieces even while Richards is more proven and arguably better than Gagne.

Funny how that works both ways isn't it?

--------------------

Let's make a compromise. Hartnell for Hiller, 2nd -10


Oh I love this one, let me jump in here. See, you've one FATAL mistake here and that in saying that Richards = Gagne. TB couldn't realistically carry the 7+ mil salaries of both Richards and Vinny and they had to part with one. If you want a very good center (actually, Richards had ONE really good year and then has been average the rest of his career) one a realatively BAD contract then you are talking about Briere from the Flyers. So if you want to trade us Hiller + for Briere then that's fine with me. That's a MUCH closer comparison to the Richards deal that you are waving as your banner.

I'll wait for the "Richards has accomplished much more than Briere" and "Richards >>>> Briere" comments that are sure to come for you. I'm going to the bar now but I'll check back later. PS - I'd be very very careful in your bashing Brier for not having acclomplished anything. If you actually WATCHED the games then you'd know that the year that the Canes won the cup that the Buffalo team was the better team but losing 3 of your top 4 starting dmen, and then 1 of the guys you had as one of their replacements, really does have a SIGNIFICANT impact on a teams ability to win. Be carefu here, you may just put your foot in your mouth.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:28 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Source? I find this very interesting because Dallas was infact acquiring Richards.

My statement holds true none the less. Do me a favor, find a deal where a star player nets anywhere near the amount people on HF thought he'd be worth. I think you'll have a harder time finding it than i had finding an example for you.

I don't think trading for Ott and Barch in order to use them as trade bait is a viable option for Anaheim at this time.
Remembr, BRIERE, not Gagne, fits into your Richards type deal.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:28 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
wanna put a package together for briere?

if you want a fair deal how about asking for someone we may even be looking to trade and not guys your gonna have to overpay to get.
Briere, JVR, Giroux, 1st -09, 1st -10 for Drew Miller

You can't get a quality netminder with your scraps. It's as simple as that, Lupul, Jones, whatever will not get it done.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:29 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
So you got nothing. Okey.


Actually no. The point it validates is Gagne won't fetch as much as you think.
Actuall all you did was say that Hiller + can get you an over paid Briere. Naughty naughty, I've got you on this one. Be careful what you ask for, it might not turn out the we you expected.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:31 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Briere, JVR, Giroux, 1st -09, 1st -10 for Drew Miller

You can't get a quality netminder with your scraps. It's as simple as that, Lupul, Jones, whatever will not get it done.

And you have absolutely no clue what youare talking about. By your won example, Hiller + can be had for you taking on a burdonsome contract.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:32 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
So you got nothing. Okey.
You don't know how to use Google and do a little research? Sorry, but I'm not your assistant. You're intelligent enough to look it up for yourself, just as I did.

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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Actually no. The point it validates is Gagne won't fetch as much as you think.
Well, we aren't trying to get rid of Gagne, so we aren't trying to "fetch" anything for him.

Look, my stance is that in no way should Gagne be traded for Hiller straight up. Its my opinion that its absolutely a brutal price to pay for a relative unproven goaltender (or any goaltender). You don't have to agree with my opinion, as that's your right.

I have only really argued that the market has never dictated paying that much for a goalie. If you believe that is somehow just flat out wrong, then take it up with the actual GMs who have set the market value. They're the ones you have a disagreement with, not me.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:33 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Remembr, BRIERE, not Gagne, fits into your Richards type deal.
Briere is 32 with 6 years left on his deal.

Richards at the time of the trade was 27 with 4 years left. Plus a Conn Smythe and a Cup Ring.

Yeah right.

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05-16-2009, 09:34 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
You don't know how to use Google and do a little research? Sorry, but I'm not your assistant. You're intelligent enough to look it up for yourself, just as I did.


Well, we aren't trying to get rid of Gagne, so we aren't trying to "fetch" anything for him.

Look, my stance is that in no way should Gagne be traded for Hiller straight up. Its my opinion that its absolutely a brutal price to pay for a relative unproven goaltender (or any goaltender). You don't have to agree with my opinion, as that's your right.

I have only really argued that the market has never dictated paying that much for a goalie. If you believe that is somehow just flat out wrong, then take it up with the actual GMs who have set the market value. They're the ones you have a disagreement with, not me.
Don't worry, his example only proved that THEY would have to give up Hiller + to get Briere, not Gagne. Take this and run with it, I have to go. Honestly, Briere is comparable to Brad Richards in the other deal.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:36 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
You don't know how to use Google and do a little research? Sorry, but I'm not your assistant.
You asked for a favor to find a deal where a young backup was traded for a star player. I did and now you are pulling this crap. All i can do is assume you're just talking and can't back it up with facts.

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05-16-2009, 09:37 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Briere, JVR, Giroux, 1st -09, 1st -10 for Drew Miller

You can't get a quality netminder with your scraps. It's as simple as that, Lupul, Jones, whatever will not get it done.
I'm going to take that little group and not bother reading the rest of this thread real quick.

So you guys are sending us Getzlaf, Ryan, Hiller, and Gardiner right?

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:40 PM
  #91
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I'm going to take that little group and not bother reading the rest of this thread real quick.
Always an intelligent approach.

Obviously that is way overboard. Briere has negative value and there needs to be something to make taking him worth it.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:41 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
You asked for a favor to find a deal where a young backup was traded for a star player. I did and now you are pulling this crap. All i can do is assume you're just talking and can't back it up with facts.
Dude, do you even watch hockey?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3265543

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Tampa Bay is last in the Eastern Conference and looking to clear salary cap space two years after signing Richards to a five-year contract that averages $7.8 million per season.

The trade breaks up Tampa Bay's "big three" of Richards and prolific forwards Vincent Lecavalier and Martin St. Louis, two of the top 10 scorers in the league.

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Old
05-16-2009, 09:45 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
You asked for a favor to find a deal where a young backup was traded for a star player. I did and now you are pulling this crap. All i can do is assume you're just talking and can't back it up with facts.
Here's a fact for you...

If your asking price is a player the calibre of Gagne for Hiller, then you can go and try to get that value somewhere else, because the Flyers certainly aren't going to it.

Here's another fact....

Richards' cap hit is $7.8M. That's horrible with todays cap ceiling of $56M, and the cap was much lower back when he was traded. Add that to the fact that the Lightning operated (and still do) under an internal budget that is lower than the cap ceiling, and it isn't too hard to figure out what Tampa Bay was trying to achieve in that deal (rid themselves of Richards cap hit).

But hey, I'm just talking here. I'm sure all smart and knowledgeable hockey fans realize it was because the Lightning really coveted Mike Smith and Jussi Jokinen (not to mention that awesome 4th round pick), and had nothing to do with the salary cap

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05-16-2009, 09:47 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Note the difference in "trying to clear salary cap space" and "trying to shed Richards' contract".

Is Philly not itself "trying to clear salary cap space" this offseason to address their weaknesses?

And yes, i do watch hockey on occasion.

Edit. Shadowflyer, read that carefully. You said Tampa was trying to shed Richards, which would obviously lessen his value a bit. Now get a source for that.

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05-16-2009, 09:51 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Note the difference in "trying to clear salary cap space" and "trying to shed Richards' contract".
Are you really going to argue semantics? Are you really going to argue that Richards' contract was, and still is horrible? C'mon dude, that's just common sense, and you're looking rather foolish in trying to pretend otherwise.

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Is Philly not itself "trying to clear salary cap space" this offseason to address their weaknesses?
We're not trying to do it by dealing Gagne (who isn't a problem contract unlike Richards), nor are we trying to do it by paying well over market value for Hiller.

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05-16-2009, 09:55 PM
  #96
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You guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You say the fact Tampa was looking to shed salary made Richards lose value while at the same time when Philly is looking to shed salary that has no bearing on your players value.

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05-16-2009, 10:00 PM
  #97
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Toss in the rights to Beauchemin (sp) and you can consider me on board.

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Old
05-16-2009, 10:00 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
You guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You say the fact Tampa was looking to shed salary made Richards lose value while at the same time when Philly is looking to shed salary that has no bearing on your players value.
Fine, as I said before, we can center a deal around Briere for Hiller. That's the equivalent of the Richards trade.

I'm not going to go round and round with you all night, but there is no way in hell the Flyers give up Gagne for Hiller without something significant being added from Anaheim. If you think you can get that kind of value somewhere else for Hiller, then go for it. You don't have to move him for less than you think he's worth, so good luck getting the value you're looking for, as the Flyers certainly aren't going to pay that asking price.

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05-16-2009, 10:11 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Fine, as I said before, we can center a deal around Briere for Hiller. That's the equivalent of the Richards trade.
It's not considering the length of the contract and age of said players.

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I'm not going to go round and round with you all night, but there is no way in hell the Flyers give up Gagne for Hiller without something significant being added from Anaheim. If you think you can get that kind of value somewhere else for Hiller, then go for it. You don't have to move him for less than you think he's worth, so good luck getting the value you're looking for, as the Flyers certainly aren't going to pay that asking price.
That's fair. At the same token the Flyers can look for cheap quality goaltending without giving up anything of value. Should be easy to find.

Edit. Just to clarify, not once in this thread have i proposed Hiller straight up for Gagne.


Last edited by Talentless Practise*: 05-16-2009 at 10:19 PM.
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Old
05-16-2009, 10:32 PM
  #100
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It's not considering the length of the contract and age of said players.
Fair point, but I still believe that Briere is still far closer to the Richards deal than Gagne is. We can agree to disagree. I'm not trying to be personal here, and I see no need to go back and forth with it. We obviously aren't going to see eye to eye, and my goal on these boards isn't to make as many enemies as possible. We see things differently, so be it.

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That's fair. At the same token the Flyers can look for cheap quality goaltending without giving up anything of value. Should be easy to find.
Its not easy to find, obviously. And maybe we won't find, that's a distinct possibility. I just know that the Flyers aren't going to give up the value of Gagne for Hiller. It would take another nice piece for Philly to consider moving on it. Just my opinion, based on past returns in the goalie market.

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Edit. Just to clarify, not once in this thread have i proposed Hiller straight up for Gagne.
No, but that was the basis for the start of this thread. Someone a few posts back mentioned Beauchemin. While I can't say how Philly management feels about him, or what his asking price will be salary-wise, I could see the possibility of Gagne for Hiller and Beauchemin (I don't have a strong opinion of Beauchemin one way or the other). Not sure what my stance would be on that one, but its alot more realistic in terms of value, IMO.

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