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Old
05-16-2009, 10:53 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I could see the possibility of Gagne for Hiller and Beauchemin (I don't have a strong opinion of Beauchemin one way or the other). Not sure what my stance would be on that one, but its alot more realistic in terms of value, IMO.
Well, Beauch doesn't have a contract for next season so i can't see him being a "nice piece" in a deal from the Ducks perspective. If Philly likes him then sure, make any deal conditional on Beauch signing with the Flyers before free agency. He likely won't stay here anyway so it's a win-win.

Philly 6th -09 for future considerations (allowed to negotiate with Beauchemin

Gagne for Hiller, rights to Beauchemin, 2nd -10 (we don't have one -09 and the 15th this year is too much)

Philly signs Beauch.

Profit.

Good game, boys and girls.

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Old
05-16-2009, 10:56 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Well, Beauch doesn't have a contract for next season so i can't see him being a "nice piece" in a deal from the Ducks perspective. If Philly likes him then sure, make any deal conditional on Beauch signing with the Flyers before free agency. He likely won't stay here anyway so it's a win-win.

Philly 6th -09 for future considerations (allowed to negotiate with Beauchemin

Gagne for Hiller, rights to Beauchemin, 2nd -10 (we don't have one -09 and the 15th this year is too much)

Philly signs Beauch.

Profit.

Good game, boys and girls.
No.

It's Gagne for Hiller, and a 1st or forward prospect equal to a first, and the rights to Beauchemin.

Gagne for Hiller basically isn't anywhere near enough and a 2nd doesn't do Gagne justice.

Otherwise no deal. We don't have to deal with Anaheim. We could get better deals for Gagne from other teams.

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Old
05-16-2009, 11:15 PM
  #103
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Seems many flyers fans are content with mediocre goaltending

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Old
05-16-2009, 11:17 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Randall Graves View Post
Seems many flyers fans are content with mediocre goaltending
Want to give us Neids and Pronger so we can find out just how mediocre our goaltending is?

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05-16-2009, 11:22 PM
  #105
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Want to give us Neids and Pronger so we can find out just how mediocre our goaltending is?
But I thought the Flyers had a top flight defense?

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05-16-2009, 11:29 PM
  #106
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But I thought the Flyers had A top flight defense?
There's no question that Timonen is good. Coburn is young, but solid. Parent is GOING to be a stud, but can still make rookie mistakes...

As for the rest of our defense. Carle is awesome offensively, but has mental lapses in his own end.

Jones and Alberts are...um...

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Old
05-16-2009, 11:36 PM
  #107
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I know Hiller can't carry Gagne's jock strap, but there is a huge cap difference between the two.

You can go after a "quality" free agent goalie, but it will cost 3-4x more.

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Old
05-16-2009, 11:48 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
Well, Beauch doesn't have a contract for next season so i can't see him being a "nice piece" in a deal from the Ducks perspective. If Philly likes him then sure, make any deal conditional on Beauch signing with the Flyers before free agency. He likely won't stay here anyway so it's a win-win.

Philly 6th -09 for future considerations (allowed to negotiate with Beauchemin

Gagne for Hiller, rights to Beauchemin, 2nd -10 (we don't have one -09 and the 15th this year is too much)

Philly signs Beauch.

Profit.

Good game, boys and girls.
I think it would have a chance if that 2010 2nd was a 2009 1st. From the Ducks perspective, Beauchemin walks anyway, so its essentially Gagne for Hiller and a 1st, as far as Anaheim is concerned.

From a Flyers perspective, losing Gagne would be tough, but we get a starting goalie, a top-4 defenseman and a 1st rounder. Of course, we'd have to be able to sign Beauchemin to a reasonable contract, and we'd likely still have to unload someone (Jones) for it to make sense.

To Ducks:
Gagne
2009 6th (for rights to Beauchemin)

To Flyers:
Hiller
Rights to Beauchemin
2009 1st Rounder

Our backend would be something like the following, however you want to make the pairings.....

Timonen - Coburn
Beauchemin - Carle
Parent - (Free Agent)

Hiller - (Free Agent)

Really, this would all come down to how Flyers management views Beauchemin and Hiller, and how much they feel losing Gagne would affect us up front. I'm not a pro scout or GM, so I will leave that assessment to the experts, but in terms of value, it seems relatively close.

From a Ducks perspective, it would probably come down to whether or not it makes sense to keep Giguere and his cap hit, and whether or not they really want to lose a 1st rounder.

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Old
05-16-2009, 11:55 PM
  #109
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I'm pretty sure Anaheim would like to keep Hiller

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:23 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I think it would have a chance if that 2010 2nd was a 2009 1st. From the Ducks perspective, Beauchemin walks anyway, so its essentially Gagne for Hiller and a 1st, as far as Anaheim is concerned.
As soon as someone expresses interest in acquiring Beauchemins rights, a pricetag will be put on them, that's for sure.

Think Timonen&Hartnell. Ellison for permission to talk to them, 1st rounder for the rights. In B's case, junk minorleaguer/late pick for permission to talk, maybe a 3rd rounder for the rights.

As for the 1st, i'd have to know what our scouts think about the talent there and if there's someone they really like. Even then i'd probably want Philly's 1st this year coming back. I'd estimate the difference in value from #15 to #21 to be a late 1st rounder.

I honestly think there is a deal to be made between these two clubs with Hiller going one way and a forward the other. Happy to let the GM's finalise it for me, though.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:36 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
As soon as someone expresses interest in acquiring Beauchemins rights, a pricetag will be put on them, that's for sure.

Think Timonen&Hartnell. Ellison for permission to talk to them, 1st rounder for the rights. In B's case, junk minorleaguer/late pick for permission to talk, maybe a 3rd rounder for the rights.

As for the 1st, i'd have to know what our scouts think about the talent there and if there's someone they really like. Even then i'd probably want Philly's 1st this year coming back. I'd estimate the difference in value from #15 to #21 to be a late 1st rounder.

I honestly think there is a deal to be made between these two clubs with Hiller going one way and a forward the other. Happy to let the GM's finalise it for me, though.
You won't be getting it. You're not getting Gagne AND a 1st. It's just not happening. Us giving back our first nearly negates the point of getting a 1st in the deal.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:40 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
As for the 1st, i'd have to know what our scouts think about the talent there and if there's someone they really like. Even then i'd probably want Philly's 1st this year coming back. I'd estimate the difference in value from #15 to #21 to be a late 1st rounder.
Depends on the depth of the draft class. This year is supposed to be very deep, so I would lean towards disagreement with you here. Maybe the jump from #11 to #5 is worth a late first.

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:44 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
As soon as someone expresses interest in acquiring Beauchemins rights, a pricetag will be put on them, that's for sure.

Think Timonen&Hartnell. Ellison for permission to talk to them, 1st rounder for the rights. In B's case, junk minorleaguer/late pick for permission to talk, maybe a 3rd rounder for the rights.

As for the 1st, i'd have to know what our scouts think about the talent there and if there's someone they really like. Even then i'd probably want Philly's 1st this year coming back. I'd estimate the difference in value from #15 to #21 to be a late 1st rounder.

I honestly think there is a deal to be made between these two clubs with Hiller going one way and a forward the other. Happy to let the GM's finalise it for me, though.
Yeppers, I totally understand where you're coming from. I think there is a possible deal between the two teams as well. Maybe nothing close to what we came up with, but whatever. We're just posters on a message board, and the GMs get paid to figure it all out, so let them argue about it

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Old
05-17-2009, 12:53 AM
  #114
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To Anaheim:

Simon Gagne
2009 1st rounder (21st overall)

To Philadelphia:

Jonas Hiller
Ryan Carter
2009 1st rounder (15th overall)
Rights to Francois Beauchemin

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:03 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
To Anaheim:

Simon Gagne
2009 1st rounder (21st overall)

To Philadelphia:

Jonas Hiller
Ryan Carter
2009 1st rounder (15th overall)
Rights to Francois Beauchemin
Why? No deal from the Flyers unless those two pieces get taken out.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:06 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
To Anaheim:

Simon Gagne
2009 1st rounder (21st overall)

To Philadelphia:

Jonas Hiller
Ryan Carter
2009 1st rounder (15th overall)
Rights to Francois Beauchemin
I thought you guys had a lot of serviceable bottom-6ers coming up. Nodl, Powe, Kalinski.. I'd like to hold on to Carter but if it's what makes or breaks this deal i'd do it. He's nothing too special.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:19 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
To Anaheim:

Simon Gagne
2009 1st rounder (21st overall)

To Philadelphia:

Jonas Hiller
Ryan Carter
2009 1st rounder (15th overall)
Rights to Francois Beauchemin

To Anaheim:

Simon Gagne
2009 3rd round pick

To Philadelphia:

Jonas Hiller
2009 2nd round pick
Rights to Francois Beauchemin

Everybody has got to give a little right? I forget where I heard it but someone once told me the best negotiations are when everyone gets up from the table feeling like they got just a little bit screwed. So mercury and practise, does this deal make you feel mroe than a little screwed?

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:21 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
To Anaheim:

Simon Gagne
2009 3rd round pick

To Philadelphia:

Jonas Hiller
2009 2nd round pick
Rights to Francois Beauchemin

Everybody has got to give a little right? I forget where I heard it but someone once told me the best negotiations are when everyone gets up from the table feeling like they got just a little bit screwed. So mercury and practise, does this deal make you feel mroe than a little screwed?
No reason to give up Gagne for a deal like that. Flyers get more than a little bit screwed.

What makes us pick this deal over a deal perhaps Montreal or Minnesota would give us with their goaltending situations and their need for offensive wingers?

Personally I think we're nearly getting screwed with Hiller, 1st, and rights to Beauchemin for Gagne.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:28 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
So mercury and practise, does this deal make you feel mroe than a little screwed?
That doesn't hurt too bad, i think you made it worse for Philly and better for Anaheim and i don't think Philly would accept.

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05-17-2009, 01:32 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
No reason to give up Gagne for a deal like that. Flyers get more than a little bit screwed.

What makes us pick this deal over a deal perhaps Montreal or Minnesota would give us with their goaltending situations and their need for offensive wingers?

Personally I think we're nearly getting screwed with Hiller, 1st, and rights to Beauchemin for Gagne.
I wouldn't move him myself. I don't think it is currently possible to improve the team as a whole over the next two years by moving him, so I wouldn't do it. Outside of some miracle trade where Jiggy and Briere both agree and get traded straight up, these teams aren't good trading partners IMO. I was just trying to facilitate the search for some middle ground between those two sides.

Am I the only person here who thinks Hiller on a team with an average defense would look significantly more average? I honestly think a Lupul for Harding trade (straight up) offers the Flyers a goaltender of very similar capability (though I'll concede less proven) for much less coming from the Flyers. Harding probably represents more of a gamble, but I like their chances with him.

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05-17-2009, 01:35 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I wouldn't move him myself. I don't think it is currently possible to improve the team as a whole over the next two years by moving him, so I wouldn't do it. Outside of some miracle trade where Jiggy and Briere both agree and get traded straight up, these teams aren't good trading partners IMO. I was just trying to facilitate the search for some middle ground between those two sides.

Am I the only person here who thinks Hiller on a team with an average defense would look significantly more average? I honestly think a Lupul for Harding trade (straight up) offers the Flyers a goaltender of very similar capability (though I'll concede less proven) for much less coming from the Flyers. Harding probably represents more of a gamble, but I like their chances with him.
This.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:35 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
That doesn't hurt too bad, i think you made it worse for Philly and better for Anaheim and i don't think Philly would accept.
Really? I thought Ryan Carter was not really what we need for our team, and we don't want to give up our first. So I just modified the trade to make it simpler by meeting those two wishes from each side. The simpler the better I think, as each side's assessment of value of every asset is different, so more assets = more disagreement. I looked it over and I still think Philly could/should do a little better. By placing a condition on the third for the signing of Beauchemin, I think I'm getting warmer. Obviously in a real negotiation I couldn't make one offer then make a worse one after it got accepted, but since this isn't a real negotiation, is the trade below still palatable for you?



Gagne + 3rd 09 conditional on signing of Beauchemin.

FOR

Hiller + 2nd 09 + Beauchemin's rights


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 05-17-2009 at 01:41 AM.
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05-17-2009, 01:42 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Really? I thought Ryan Carter was not really what we need for our team, and we don't want to give up our first. So I just modified the trade to make it simpler by meeting those two wishes from each side. The simpler the better I think, as each side's assessment of value of every asset is different, so more assets = more disagreement. I looked it over and I still think Philly could/should do a little better. By placing a condition on the third for the signing of Beauchemin, I think I'm getting warmer. Obviously in a real negotiation I couldn't make one offer then make a worse one after it got accepted, but since this isn't a real negotiation, is the trade below still palatable for you?



Gagne + 3rd 09 conditional on signing of Beauchemin.

FOR

Hiller + 2nd 09 + Beauchemin's rights
For the last time, NO.

Gagne

FOR

Hiller + 1st 09 + Beauchemin's rights

And even that's a stretch from Philadelphia.

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Old
05-17-2009, 01:52 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Am I the only person here who thinks Hiller on a team with an average defense would look significantly more average?
What you saw in the playoffs is Hiller behind a great defense. What you saw in the regular season was Hiller behind an average defense. Beauchemin was injured most of the year and Whitney&Wisniewski were brought in at the deadline. During most of the season the Ducks defense looked something like this:

Pronger-McIver/Mikkelson
Festerling-Niedermayer
Montador-Hedican/Brookbank

Hardly world beaters there apart from Pronger/Nieds

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I looked it over and I still think Philly could/should do a little better. By placing a condition on the third for the signing of Beauchemin, I think I'm getting warmer. Obviously in a real negotiation I couldn't make one offer then make a worse one after it got accepted, but since this isn't a real negotiation, is the trade below still palatable for you?
I think ShadowFlyer and i already agreed any trade would be made on condition that the Flyers and Beauchemin already had a deal in place to be signed after the trade. That eliminates the need for conditional picks.

So while the Ducks are only trading away Beauchemins rights, the Flyers receive, in essence, a signed Beauchemin.

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05-17-2009, 01:53 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Talentless Practise View Post
As soon as someone expresses interest in acquiring Beauchemins rights, a pricetag will be put on them, that's for sure.

Think Timonen&Hartnell. Ellison for permission to talk to them, 1st rounder for the rights. In B's case, junk minorleaguer/late pick for permission to talk, maybe a 3rd rounder for the rights.

As for the 1st, i'd have to know what our scouts think about the talent there and if there's someone they really like. Even then i'd probably want Philly's 1st this year coming back. I'd estimate the difference in value from #15 to #21 to be a late 1st rounder.

I honestly think there is a deal to be made between these two clubs with Hiller going one way and a forward the other. Happy to let the GM's finalise it for me, though.
So, you're happy with Hiller + Duck 2nd + rights to Beauchemin for Briere because that's what you are looking at.

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