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Kaberle to NYR

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Old
05-18-2009, 04:47 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Gomez for 5 more years at 7.3 mill is atrocious. Id rather keep Blake. The leafs do need a #1 centre, and I think Gomez would be able to handle that, but his contract is just too big.
would drury work better?

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05-18-2009, 04:48 PM
  #77
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How about no? I'd like to give the younger D a chance at having some spots on the roster. Unless you want Redden for Kaberle

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05-18-2009, 05:13 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by dreadsweat View Post
I proposed this in the other thread-gomez,sanguinetti,and 1st for kaberle, and blake
It could use some adjusting but how is it?
I could possibly deal with that, but I don't believe many Ranger fans would because it doesn't really address the Rangers cap-issues.

Gomez @~7m (for 5 more seasons after this one)
Sanguinetti @<= 1m (and may not be NHL-ready yet)
1st rnd pick (let's assume it's for '09)
(Total = ~8m for next season)

for

Kaberle @ 4.25m (for 2 more seasons after this one)
Blake @ 4m (for 3 more seasons after this one)
(Total = 8.25m for next season)

Suffice it to say there is simply not enough cap-hit leaving NYR to make your proposal worthwhile to most Ranger fans on these boards. NYR cannot afford to simply swap their cap-hit package for another of a similar cap-hit value because they're already cap-committed to far too much on far too few players.

Now, unless the Rangers are willing to bury a contract (or two) like Redden's in the minors, then I just can't see too much player-movement on the Rangers front this off-season.

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05-18-2009, 05:17 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by dreadsweat View Post
I proposed this in the other thread-gomez,sanguinetti,and 1st for kaberle, and blake
It could use some adjusting but how is it?
Are you nuts?!?!

You're talking about trading our #1 defenceman for Sanguinetti, a first, and a MASSIVE salary dump. Gomez isn't good enough to be our #1 centre at his current cap hit.

Btw, there's no incentive for Drury either; he's a 2nd line centre who problably has a worse contract.

I'm not sure why this thread was started; the rangers can't afford to give up Staal and don't have any other talent which isn't grossly overpaid. Plus, they can't afford to take on Kaberle without dumping one of those contracts.

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05-18-2009, 05:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Are you nuts?!?!

You're talking about trading our #1 defenceman for Sanguinetti, a first, and a MASSIVE salary dump. Gomez isn't good enough to be our #1 centre at his current cap hit.

Btw, there's no incentive for Drury either; he's a 2nd line centre who problably has a worse contract.

I'm not sure why this thread was started; the rangers can't afford to give up Staal and don't have any other talent which isn't grossly overpaid. Plus, they can't afford to take on Kaberle without dumping one of those contracts.
Id rather not get a salary dump when we trade kaberle,but if its gets rid of blake it would consider it. There is no way we get rid of blake without trading a good player with him. You would have to look around the league first, see the offers, and go from there.

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05-18-2009, 05:32 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by dreadsweat View Post
would drury work better?
no itd be worse

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05-18-2009, 05:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by dreadsweat View Post
Id rather not get a salary dump when we trade kaberle,but if its gets rid of blake it would consider it. There is no way we get rid of blake without trading a good player with him. You would have to look around the league first, see the offers, and go from there.
Blake has 3 years, $10.5 million, and a $4million cap hit left on his contract. He's gotta be close to retirement and if not you can bury that kind of salary in the minors if need be.

Gomez has 5 years, $33.5million and a $7.3 million cap hit left on his contract. He's 28 years old so nowhere close to retirement, and you realistically can't bury that kind of salary adn that kind of player in hte minors.

You don't accomplish a salary dump by taking on an overpaid player with greater salary. While Gomez is better, we can't afford to keep either on the cap if we want to be winning any cups; so might aswell keep the cheaper guy.

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05-18-2009, 05:34 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by dreadsweat View Post
Id rather not get a salary dump when we trade kaberle,but if its gets rid of blake it would consider it. There is no way we get rid of blake without trading a good player with him. You would have to look around the league first, see the offers, and go from there.
Why do you want to get rid of Blake?

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05-18-2009, 05:40 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Blake has 3 years, $10.5 million, and a $4million cap hit left on his contract. He's gotta be close to retirement and if not you can bury that kind of salary in the minors if need be.

Gomez has 5 years, $33.5million and a $7.3 million cap hit left on his contract. He's 28 years old so nowhere close to retirement, and you realistically can't bury that kind of salary adn that kind of player in hte minors.

You don't accomplish a salary dump by taking on an overpaid player with greater salary. While Gomez is better, we can't afford to keep either on the cap if we want to be winning any cups; so might aswell keep the cheaper guy.
good point, and if i had a choice i would just offer blake and finger for Gomez, but i would be flamed to death. I have always liked Gomez but your right he is extremely over paid.

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05-18-2009, 05:41 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Why do you want to get rid of Blake?
Just never liked him, nearly died when we signed him, and would rather have a young person like stalberg playing in his spot.

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05-18-2009, 05:54 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by dreadsweat View Post
Just never liked him, nearly died when we signed him, and would rather have a young person like stalberg playing in his spot.
We cant ice a team of all rookies. Blake has been around a while and can score. If young guys want to make the team they should earn it, not be handed the spot. We cant give up a spot on the top 2 lines to a rookie, it may ruin his development. Stalberg and others are going to have to wait.

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05-18-2009, 05:59 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
We cant ice a team of all rookies. Blake has been around a while and can score. If young guys want to make the team they should earn it, not be handed the spot. We cant give up a spot on the top 2 lines to a rookie, it may ruin his development. Stalberg and others are going to have to wait.
understood, but there are younger cheaper people that can do his job, or if we trade him (for a late pick), it Free's up cap space for the sedins. I would rather have the sedins for 5.5-6 mill each than blake for 4 mill.

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05-18-2009, 05:59 PM
  #88
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No one on the leafs is worth talking about. Antropov is the highest point producer on the rangers stats board. Poni and Blake had more points then any Ranger but Blake is considered overpaid and is paid 3 million less a year then the likes of Drury or Gomez. Matt Stajan had one less point then Drury and he played third line minutes for more then half the season. Grabovski had more points then Dubinsky, Naslund and Callahan. Kaberle in his widely agreed upon bad season had more points then any Rangers defenceman all while only playing in 57 games. The same goes for Kubina. Ian White had the same point production as Redden for last season hell Finger only had 3 less points then Redden. So really if we're comparing the two teams I'm not at all concerned about the leafs. Kaberle is instantly the number one dman on the Rangers.
You have done a wonderful job of elaborating on one-half of the game of hockey.

No mention whatsoever about the defensive side of the game.

With all of that seeming offensive prowess, the Leafs still managed to finish 14 points behind the Rangers in the standings. Do you think that the 75 fewer goals against that the Rangers allowed might have had something to do with that?

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05-18-2009, 06:04 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by projexns View Post
You have done a wonderful job of elaborating on one-half of the game of hockey.

No mention whatsoever about the defensive side of the game.

With all of that seeming offensive prowess, the Leafs still managed to finish 14 points behind the Rangers in the standings. Do you think that the 75 fewer goals against that the Rangers allowed might have had something to do with that?
You are right. I think his argument was aimed at all of the Leaf haters saying we have nothing to offer in terms of trade value. But you are right and I dont think looking at mere points in comparing players on the Rangers is the best way. Toronto has always been able to socre goals, its amazing that they can, when looking at the team on paper youd think they would have troubles. The trouble for the leafs is keeping the puck out of the net, and that is because we have suspect goaltending.

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05-18-2009, 06:05 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
gomez isnt a goal scorer....id be more than willing to bet that blake comes no where near his past point total if he was playing for the rangers.
Antropov actually improved his numbers quite a bit when he went to the Rangers... scoring isn't really a strong point in NY.

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05-18-2009, 06:07 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by My Sweet Shadow View Post
Antropov actually improved his numbers quite a bit when he went to the Rangers... scoring isn't really a strong point in NY.
i think torterella will open their game up a bit and rangers numbers will increase next year

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05-18-2009, 06:08 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by dreadsweat View Post
understood, but there are younger cheaper people that can do his job, or if we trade him (for a late pick), it Free's up cap space for the sedins. I would rather have the sedins for 5.5-6 mill each than blake for 4 mill.
Wow... this thread is basically about ridiculous contracts (Gomez, Drury, Redden, Rosival, Blake), yet he we go again for another round.

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05-18-2009, 06:09 PM
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i think torterella will open their game up a bit and rangers numbers will increase next year
I would hope so... even Ottawa outscored the Rangers.

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05-18-2009, 06:36 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by projexns View Post
You have done a wonderful job of elaborating on one-half of the game of hockey.

No mention whatsoever about the defensive side of the game.

With all of that seeming offensive prowess, the Leafs still managed to finish 14 points behind the Rangers in the standings. Do you think that the 75 fewer goals against that the Rangers allowed might have had something to do with that?
Sorry hockey god I didn't realize that Kaberle was also our goalie all of our forwards and d. My bad. He's also an offensive dman not a shut down dman. O.K so now I'll work on your argument. Kaberle was -8 last season on what was clearly the worse team. Redden was a -5 and Rozsival was a -7. Not to mention that Girardi was -14. The difference is that we had the worst goalie tandem in the NHL last year and you guys didn't. So yeah my argument still stands. Kaberle isn't great defensively and I never claimed him to be but offensively he's hands down better then ANY ranger dman. What our teams standings have to do with Kaberle's play makes no sense and is an absolutely useless argument.

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05-18-2009, 07:01 PM
  #95
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Sorry hockey god I didn't realize that Kaberle was also our goalie all of our forwards and d. My bad. He's also an offensive dman not a shut down dman. O.K so now I'll work on your argument. Kaberle was -8 last season on what was clearly the worse team. Redden was a -5 and Rozsival was a -7. Not to mention that Girardi was -14. The difference is that we had the worst goalie tandem in the NHL last year and you guys didn't. So yeah my argument still stands. Kaberle isn't great defensively and I never claimed him to be but offensively he's hands down better then ANY ranger dman. What our teams standings have to do with Kaberle's play makes no sense and is an absolutely useless argument.
I'm not a Rangers fan, I'm in Toronto. And I don't think you understand my argument at all. It gets tiresome to read Leaf fans post offensive numbers all of the time when the team is terrible defensively and loses a lot of hockey games because of it.

Toskala was brutal this year. He was much better the previous season but the Leafs were still bad defensively as a team. And a lot of it has to do with the forwards.

The Leafs blue-line was bad in their own end two years ago because everyone with the exception of Hal Gill was an offence-first d-man. Kaberle, McCabe, Kubina, White, Coliacovo, Stralman, none of these guys react instinctively to defence the way a pure defensive d-man would.

Which places the onus on the forwards to help out. Not every shift is going to be about scoring goals. Sometimes you're going to have to come back deep in your own end to help out your d-men, and otherwise try to keep the play to the perimeter and the shots on goal from long distances or bad angles.

As a group I would say that the Rangers blue-line is less than the Leafs blue-line.

But at least their forwards are willing to do some grunt work in the defensive zone, whereas too many Leafs just go through the motions. They go to a spot where "they're supposed to go" but don't go there with any conviction or purpose.

Gomez has played his entire career in defensive systems and has been successful in them. He is substantially better than any Leaf forward at this time, as are Drury and Dubinsky, regardless of any purely offensive statistics that may be cited.

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05-18-2009, 07:09 PM
  #96
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Gomez is the most overrated player in hockey. Lets see if anyone out there is going to touch that contract.

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05-18-2009, 07:29 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by projexns View Post
I'm not a Rangers fan, I'm in Toronto. And I don't think you understand my argument at all. It gets tiresome to read Leaf fans post offensive numbers all of the time when the team is terrible defensively and loses a lot of hockey games because of it.

Toskala was brutal this year. He was much better the previous season but the Leafs were still bad defensively as a team. And a lot of it has to do with the forwards.

The Leafs blue-line was bad in their own end two years ago because everyone with the exception of Hal Gill was an offence-first d-man. Kaberle, McCabe, Kubina, White, Coliacovo, Stralman, none of these guys react instinctively to defence the way a pure defensive d-man would.

Which places the onus on the forwards to help out. Not every shift is going to be about scoring goals. Sometimes you're going to have to come back deep in your own end to help out your d-men, and otherwise try to keep the play to the perimeter and the shots on goal from long distances or bad angles.

As a group I would say that the Rangers blue-line is less than the Leafs blue-line.

But at least their forwards are willing to do some grunt work in the defensive zone, whereas too many Leafs just go through the motions. They go to a spot where "they're supposed to go" but don't go there with any conviction or purpose.

Gomez has played his entire career in defensive systems and has been successful in them. He is substantially better than any Leaf forward at this time, as are Drury and Dubinsky, regardless of any purely offensive statistics that may be cited.
Sorry to obset you but I was discussing offensive numbers. You brought up the defensive part in which I showed you there isn't much difference in his play compared to the Rangers top end guys. His defensive game doesn't change the fact the offensively he'd be their best dman. Yes I agree that we've had to much in the way of offensive dmen and not enough shut down guys which I'm sure Burke will be addressing. But your equating all the leafs problems onto Kaberle. As I've said he's not great defensively but that's not were his value is. What does the forwards not back checking have to do with Kaberle? It only supports my argument. Gomez is a good hockey player that is worth half his contract. Kaberle is a good player that is worth more then his contract. If given the choice I'd gladly keep Kaberle.

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05-18-2009, 10:57 PM
  #98
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No one on the leafs is worth talking about. Antropov is the highest point producer on the rangers stats board. Poni and Blake had more points then any Ranger but Blake is considered overpaid and is paid 3 million less a year then the likes of Drury or Gomez. Matt Stajan had one less point then Drury and he played third line minutes for more then half the season. Grabovski had more points then Dubinsky, Naslund and Callahan. Kaberle in his widely agreed upon bad season had more points then any Rangers defenceman all while only playing in 57 games. The same goes for Kubina. Ian White had the same point production as Redden for last season hell Finger only had 3 less points then Redden. So really if we're comparing the two teams I'm not at all concerned about the leafs. Kaberle is instantly the number one dman on the Rangers.
You've done nothing to prove that Kaberle is not overrated, besides compare him to a mediocre Rangers defense unit. Why are you comparing other Leaf players to Rangers players? Where in my comments did you see me compare Ranger players to Leaf ones? The only thing I said was Kaberle is over rated in the Leaf community. There was no mention of Ranger fans placing their players on a pedestal, yet you went out of you way to try and prove that somehow the "talent" on our team was superior based on points. I would take Gomez over Stajan in an instant if it were not for that contract, and Dubinsky would instantly be a better player than Poni or Stajan. Also, I would take him over Grabovski because he is a team player that will do anything to win. The fact remains that Leaf fans worship Kaberle too highly because other than Schenn, there is nothing to worship. Not once did I say Rangers players like Gomez, Naslund, Callahan or Redden were worthy of putting on a pedestal.


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05-18-2009, 11:02 PM
  #99
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you know he has a 7 mill contract right? why would the leaf's even consider a straight up deal with that much salary coming back??
Yeah the Gomez for Kaberle was misguided because I really enjoyed watching Gomez when he was a devil. I also did not realize he had 5 years left on his contract, as I did not expand the contract years on nhl numbers. The Leafs getting a number one centre is my main concern, and the thought of getting one deluded my common sense.

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05-19-2009, 04:43 AM
  #100
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You've done nothing to prove that Kaberle is not overrated, besides compare him to a mediocre Rangers defense unit. Why are you comparing other Leaf players to Rangers players? Where in my comments did you see me compare Ranger players to Leaf ones? The only thing I said was Kaberle is over rated in the Leaf community. There was no mention of Ranger fans placing their players on a pedestal, yet you went out of you way to try and prove that somehow the "talent" on our team was superior based on points. I would take Gomez over Stajan in an instant if it were not for that contract, and Dubinsky would instantly be a better player than Poni or Stajan. Also, I would take him over Grabovski because he is a team player that will do anything to win. The fact remains that Leaf fans worship Kaberle too highly because other than Schenn, there is nothing to worship. Not once did I say Rangers players like Gomez, Naslund, Callahan or Redden were worthy of putting on a pedestal.
The reason I compare him and other players to the rangers is because this is a forum discussing a trade between the two teams. So while you like saying the leafs having nothing to be excited about execpt for Schenn I showed you why we absolutely do have things to be excited about. Why exactly is Grabo not a team player? Because he's a flashy player? What exactly makes Gomez a number one center? Just because he's paid like one doesn't make it so. Considering your post after this one you talk about trading Kaberle for Gomez straight up and that you lost your head in thinking about it yeah you've mentioned him in previous posts and again in this one.

Stajan 1.75 million UFA at year end 76Gp 15g 40a 55pts
Gomez 7.357 million cap hit 6 more years 77gp 16g 42a 58pts

I think I'll stick with Stajan thanks

As for Kaberle I'll show a few examples or comparissons

30 Kaberle career numbers 738gp 73g 360a 433pts cap hit 4.25
29 Campbell career numbers 493gp 42g 205a 247pts cap hit 7.14
28 Hainsey career numbers 326gp 26g 98a 124ptd cap hit 4.5
35 Rafalski career numbers 692gp 67g 358a 425pts cap hit 6
30 Markov career numbers 571gp 74g 255a 329pts cap hit 5.75
35 Hamrlik career numbers 1,157gp 142g 422a 564pts cap hit 5.5
31 Streit career numbers 279gp 41g 124a 165pts cap hit 4.1 more of a shooter though
30 Rozcival career numbers 555gp 54g 149a 203pts cap hit 5
30 Morris career numbers 793gp 76g 264a 340pts cap hit 3.95 UFA
34 Timmonen career numbers 730gp 90g 298a 388pts cap hit 6.333
32 Boyle career numbers 600gp 92g 257a 349pts cap hit 6.667

I don't see how any of these guys are hands down any better then Kaberle as I feel they all play a similar style game IMO and these guys are considered among the best in the game. How do they differ from Kaberle. I'm not overating Kaberle in any way. You my friend under value him. I tried to use guys in his same age range to make it as balanced stats wise as possible even though some of the guys simply haven't played as much. Feel free to show me why he's overated in any way.

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