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Luongo to Flyers?

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Old
05-19-2009, 01:34 PM
  #126
supa scoop
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It would be nice to get a guy like Giguere who can give us a good 3 or 4 years and allow us to get a guy in the system who can step in afterwards. Another thing I like about Giguere is that he seems to be completely attached to Francois Allaire, which hopefully would lead to Lemelin finding his way out.

Not to say I wouldn't be thrilled with Luongo... but it's not a realistic option I wouldn't think.

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05-19-2009, 10:56 PM
  #127
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Really think that the flyers would go more for a cheaper version of a premier goalie.

Schneider for Gagne stright up................you give up a great player that has had injury proplems........for a goalie for now and your future.You get under the salary cap .986 for 5.25....................Arent the flyers sitting at 50 mil with 5 players to fill in the roster-incl two goalies.

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05-19-2009, 10:58 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyforhockey View Post
Really think that the flyers would go more for a cheaper version of a premier goalie.

Schneider for Gagne stright up................you give up a great player that has had injury proplems........for a goalie for now and your future.You get under the salary cap .986 for 5.25....................Arent the flyers sitting at 50 mil with 5 players to fill in the roster-incl two goalies.
But you have no idea if Schneider can play at the NHL level....why would you trade an All-Star LW at a decent contract for a prospect goalie?

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05-20-2009, 04:38 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Why not just draft your own goalie?

The Canucks are not going to trade Schneider because they'll never get market value for him.
Well there is an opportunity cost to keeping him if they resign Luongo. If they can fill a need and improve the team by trading him, I doubt they would hold off just on the principle that they need to get "fair" value. "Market" value is whatever the market will give you, so by definition they will get that. The question is whether they'd get enough value to make them want to do it. I personally would do JVR for him and a pick with out any hesitation, which I think Vancouver would entertain.

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05-20-2009, 05:05 AM
  #130
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I still say resign Biron if its around 4.5. I don't think we'd be able to go much higher though.

Gagne for Schneider would be a travesty.

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05-21-2009, 03:23 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post

You have no cap issues because Sundin, Sedins, Ohlund, Taylor are unsigned UFAs. Sign Sedins and then we will talk about your cap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I'm inundated with their salary information on a daily basis, so I'm familiar with the situation. They may be in a salary cap pickle in 10/11 but they should be fine for next season.

Luongo comes in at $6.75M; Schneider will probably begin the season with the Moose but, for the sake of the argument, I'll include his $1.1M.

2 Goalies: $7.85M

As you mentioned, Mitchell, Salo, Edler and Bieksa are signed for $14M. O'Brien will probably re-sign for a 50%ish raise to $1.5M.

5 Defensemen: $15.5M

Guaranteed signed forwards for 09/10 are Burrows ($2M), Kesler ($1.75M), Demitra ($4M), Bernier ($2M), Johnson ($1.1M), Raymond ($0.885M) and Hordichuk ($0.775M). In all likelihood, Cody Hodgson will be in the line-up next season for $1.75M.

8 Forwards: $14.25M

Total before free agents: $37.6M

Vancouver's defense will be weaker next season if they pursue a top six forward (on the condition that the twins re-sign). If the Sedins are back in Vancouver, it'll be for around $11M, as you suggested. I doubt Ohlund and Sundin will be back and they'll replace Ohlund with a cheap alternative as their #6 guy.

They won't be able to make a play at Gaborik or Hossa, but they're fine. They have ~ $18M to re-sign the Sedins, add a scrub to the 4th line, sign a mid-pair/bottom-pair defenseman and sign a 2nd/3rd line winger.
I'm not sure if you guys really care for information from a Canuck fan on this, but the Canucks do not have any cap issues... and don't take Gillis' word for it either (or Gillman who's the team's capologist)... just breakdown the numbers... even with the Sedins getting raises, there are no cap concerns on the team.

I also quoted the other post here because of the inaccuracies there... such as Hodgson's cap hit - which is actually $875K, not $1.75mill - which is his total cap hit with bonuses... but as we've already been told by both the NHL and NHLPA, bonuses will not automatically count again the cap next season, and this season was an anomaly for that due to the NHLPA needing to extend the CBA... next season will be like every other year, where bonuses will not count against the cap, and only those earned bonuses will, which can be deflected to the following year (when the Canucks will again have salary coming off the books - and thus aren't in a "pickle" in 2010/2011 either, unless the cap drops big-time, which will effect every team in the league)... The cap hits you've detailed above include rookie bonuses... Raymond's cap hit is $677K, with bonuses that take it to $883K... Schneider is at $984K...

As of now though, the majority of their roster is in place, other than the Sedins and finding a bottom pairing dman. Pyatt is not going to be back... his $1.575mill cap hit will go to Hansen, who's qualifier won't take him any higher than $600K... and Pyatt didn't do all that much anyways to be missed... Ohlund fell to #5 on the Canucks depth chart by the end of the season... you don't need to replace him with a $3.5mill dman.

Other than that, what the Canucks already have signed:

Top 6: Demitra, Kesler, Burrows ($7.75mill)
Bottom 6: Raymond, Bernier, Johnson, Hordichuk ($4.66mill)
Defense: Mitchell, Bieksa, Salo, Edler ($14mill)
Goal: Luongo, Schneider ($7.734mill)

Total - $34.144mill for 13 players.

UFAs: Sedins ($12mill - worst case considering these seem to be the starting point from their agent).

Total: $46.144mill for 15 players.

RFAs (3): Hansen (qualifier is $550K - so let's say $600K, considering he was a healthy scratch down the stretch); O'Brien (qualifier $998K - so let's say $1.2mill, considering he was a #6 dman, stats are very low, icetime was low, and was a healthy scratch at times); Wellwood (qualifier at $1.09mill... let's say $1.2mill, playing the 3rd line, limited stats and icetime).... adds up to another $2.95mill.

total: $49.094mill for 18 players.

That leaves the team with needing to find one forward (either a 2nd line guy, or a 4th line guy, moving Raymond/Bernier up to the top 6, or using Grabner with his $793K cap hit), plus another extra forward (such as re-signing Rypien, who shouldn't cost anymore than $600K). And then finding a #6 and #7 dman ... shouldn't cost more than $1.5mill (likely bringing back Davison - $560K; or promoting McIver to the #7 spot - $500K).

Again, unless the cap drops big time next season, the Canucks should still have a good $3-4mill to add another forward, $1mill to add a #6 dman, and $1.2mill or so for 2 extra players, leaving them with about $1.5mill in cap space assuming the cap stays were it's at this season.

The following season, Demitra is a UFA ($4mill), as is Mitchell ($3.5mill) and Johnson and Hordichuk ($1.9mill combined)... that's $9.4mill coming off the books, where Grabner is still the most likely option to replace Demitra (and still on contract at $793K cap hit)... and Luongo's cap increase is going to be negligible, considering he's already taking $6.75mill cap hit, while his new contract isn't going to pay him much more than Lundqvist is making now ($6.875).

Break it all down, and there are no cap problems with the Canucks... compared to other teams in the league, they have tons of flexibility, and will still have room with the Sedins each locked up at $6mill, if that's what it takes.



Sorry to go through the details, but you guys seem to be under the impression that the Canucks have some kind of cap problem moving forward, which just isn't the case.

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Old
05-21-2009, 03:33 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I'm not sure if you guys really care for information from a Canuck fan on this, but the Canucks do not have any cap issues... and don't take Gillis' word for it either (or Gillman who's the team's capologist)... just breakdown the numbers... even with the Sedins getting raises, there are no cap concerns on the team.

I also quoted the other post here because of the inaccuracies there... such as Hodgson's cap hit - which is actually $875K, not $1.75mill - which is his total cap hit with bonuses... but as we've already been told by both the NHL and NHLPA, bonuses will not automatically count again the cap next season, and this season was an anomaly for that due to the NHLPA needing to extend the CBA... next season will be like every other year, where bonuses will not count against the cap, and only those earned bonuses will, which can be deflected to the following year (when the Canucks will again have salary coming off the books - and thus aren't in a "pickle" in 2010/2011 either, unless the cap drops big-time, which will effect every team in the league)... The cap hits you've detailed above include rookie bonuses... Raymond's cap hit is $677K, with bonuses that take it to $883K... Schneider is at $984K...

As of now though, the majority of their roster is in place, other than the Sedins and finding a bottom pairing dman. Pyatt is not going to be back... his $1.575mill cap hit will go to Hansen, who's qualifier won't take him any higher than $600K... and Pyatt didn't do all that much anyways to be missed... Ohlund fell to #5 on the Canucks depth chart by the end of the season... you don't need to replace him with a $3.5mill dman.

Other than that, what the Canucks already have signed:

Top 6: Demitra, Kesler, Burrows ($7.75mill)
Bottom 6: Raymond, Bernier, Johnson, Hordichuk ($4.66mill)
Defense: Mitchell, Bieksa, Salo, Edler ($14mill)
Goal: Luongo, Schneider ($7.734mill)

Total - $34.144mill for 13 players.

UFAs: Sedins ($12mill - worst case considering these seem to be the starting point from their agent).

Total: $46.144mill for 15 players.

RFAs (3): Hansen (qualifier is $550K - so let's say $600K, considering he was a healthy scratch down the stretch); O'Brien (qualifier $998K - so let's say $1.2mill, considering he was a #6 dman, stats are very low, icetime was low, and was a healthy scratch at times); Wellwood (qualifier at $1.09mill... let's say $1.2mill, playing the 3rd line, limited stats and icetime).... adds up to another $2.95mill.

total: $49.094mill for 18 players.

That leaves the team with needing to find one forward (either a 2nd line guy, or a 4th line guy, moving Raymond/Bernier up to the top 6, or using Grabner with his $793K cap hit), plus another extra forward (such as re-signing Rypien, who shouldn't cost anymore than $600K). And then finding a #6 and #7 dman ... shouldn't cost more than $1.5mill (likely bringing back Davison - $560K; or promoting McIver to the #7 spot - $500K).

Again, unless the cap drops big time next season, the Canucks should still have a good $3-4mill to add another forward, $1mill to add a #6 dman, and $1.2mill or so for 2 extra players, leaving them with about $1.5mill in cap space assuming the cap stays were it's at this season.

The following season, Demitra is a UFA ($4mill), as is Mitchell ($3.5mill) and Johnson and Hordichuk ($1.9mill combined)... that's $9.4mill coming off the books, where Grabner is still the most likely option to replace Demitra (and still on contract at $793K cap hit)... and Luongo's cap increase is going to be negligible, considering he's already taking $6.75mill cap hit, while his new contract isn't going to pay him much more than Lundqvist is making now ($6.875).

Break it all down, and there are no cap problems with the Canucks... compared to other teams in the league, they have tons of flexibility, and will still have room with the Sedins each locked up at $6mill, if that's what it takes.



Sorry to go through the details, but you guys seem to be under the impression that the Canucks have some kind of cap problem moving forward, which just isn't the case.
The Canucks main problem is that they have very few forwards signed longterm at all. They have no deals. They have to pay market value or close to it for every player. Which sucks. It will bite them, especially with Kesler.

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Old
05-21-2009, 03:47 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
The Canucks main problem is that they have very few forwards signed longterm at all. They have no deals. They have to pay market value or close to it for every player. Which sucks. It will bite them, especially with Kesler.
It could bite them, but wait and see how things unfold before predicting the worst... they have been re-signing players to good contracts recently (and actually have been doing so since Nonis was around), including Burrows, who signed at $2mill/yr for 4yrs, after which he publicly stated that players know they need to take less on contracts to fit everyone into a cap structure to be a competitive team... Kesler said the same thing right after Burrows signed (which prompted his agent to go on damage control)... so really there's no guarantees that Kesler will look for every penny on his next deal.

He also managed to lock up Bernier for $500K less than he was making last year...

and as far as longterm deals, that's really up to the GM and their philosophy of building a team... you say that it's a problem that they don't have players signed to longterm deals, but Gillis has gone on record saying that he doesn't want to have that on this team... he wants the flexibility to be able to add players when they need it, instead of locking up players to longterm deals, especially with an unpredictable cap situation that go down down as much as 10% in a couple years.

This is one of the sticking points with Sedins negotiations, who want a longterm deal in Vancouver and have said so on numerous occasions, while Gillis has consistently said he doesn't want to give any player a longterm deal (more than the 4yrs they have committed to Burrows).

Basically it comes down to how you want to manage the cap... having players on short-term deals won't hurt a team if they can create enough flexibility to add players - especially in a market where most of the teams have committed longterm contracts and don't have that cap flexibility.

The Canucks, since the salary cap was put in place, have put a lot of resources and effort into managing the cap - including hiring a capologist who according to Gillis, works with the cap numbers on a regular basis to find the best options. They haven't had any cap problems to date - and even had a ton of room last year, which allowed them to offer Sundin that $10mill contract - and still had enough cap space to add a $6mill player at the deadline! They've also had several players since the cap was in place, that took below market value offers to sign in Vancouver, including Mitchell (who confirmed he was offered $4.5mill from the Blues), Salo, who signed early instead of going to FA, and Ohlund. Kesler, and now Bernier, took less on their next deals after getting offer sheets... and now the Sedins have publicly stated they aren't looking for every dollar (even though, knowing JP Barry, he is), and will leave money on the table if they can get that longterm deal in Vancouver (Daniel Sedin stated this a month or so ago).

So given all that, I won't worry too much about their cap situation moving forward... maybe the worst happens, but as of now, the Canucks have more cap flexibility moving forward than most teams in the league.

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Old
05-21-2009, 03:52 PM
  #134
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While I'm not familiar with the individual contracts and the likelihood that players will achieve there bonuses, I figured it would be prudent to use the upper limit of their cap hit to agree with you, nuckfan in TO.

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