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Old
05-20-2009, 08:11 PM
  #76
FlyingKostitsyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
bahahaha
Why is that so funny? Plekanec had 2 less goals and 10 less points, but has a higher career high in points (69 vs 49) and he has outscored Staal in goals in the last 3 years (20, 29 and 20 goals vs 29, 12 and 22 goals). Staal's average time on ice has been similar (+/- 1min) to Plekanec's in the last 3 seasons, so don't come up with "but Staal is a 3rd line center behind Malkin and Crosby!". Staal might end up having a better career than Plekanec since he's younger, but RIGHT NOW Plekanec is the more proven player, we can't dismiss him altogether because he had a bad year.

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05-20-2009, 08:32 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
All the stats are true. Go read behindthenet.ca. It's a fascinating site that more people should be aware of -- he was doing the "new stats" before la Presse ever thought of publishing them and he has them expanded to the nth degree. Like all stats, it doesn't tell the whole story, but it tells a heck of a lot more than the mere addition of total goals and assists.

Koivu would clearly be ahead of Staal in the depth chart at this point. Staal may become a better player in the long run, but that's all it is right now -- potential.

Plekanec would start ahead of Staal as well, given his experience and overall better results, though if he plays more like this year and less like last that would most likely change in a hurry. Of course, it's also predicated on Staal not having the same kind of season he had last year.

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05-21-2009, 01:17 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
All the stats are true. Go read behindthenet.ca. It's a fascinating site that more people should be aware of -- he was doing the "new stats" before la Presse ever thought of publishing them and he has them expanded to the nth degree. Like all stats, it doesn't tell the whole story, but it tells a heck of a lot more than the mere addition of total goals and assists.

Koivu would clearly be ahead of Staal in the depth chart at this point. Staal may become a better player in the long run, but that's all it is right now -- potential.

Plekanec would start ahead of Staal as well, given his experience and overall better results, though if he plays more like this year and less like last that would most likely change in a hurry. Of course, it's also predicated on Staal not having the same kind of season he had last year.
Well that s in age only cause he may go to the finnals once again

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05-21-2009, 05:26 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Why is that so funny? Plekanec had 2 less goals and 10 less points, but has a higher career high in points (69 vs 49) and he has outscored Staal in goals in the last 3 years (20, 29 and 20 goals vs 29, 12 and 22 goals). Staal's average time on ice has been similar (+/- 1min) to Plekanec's in the last 3 seasons, so don't come up with "but Staal is a 3rd line center behind Malkin and Crosby!". Staal might end up having a better career than Plekanec since he's younger, but RIGHT NOW Plekanec is the more proven player, we can't dismiss him altogether because he had a bad year.
Plekanec has that kind of career year only because he was playing with hot Kovalev, much of it on powerplay.

Without that.... just look at this years production.

Just saying.

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05-21-2009, 06:12 AM
  #80
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'Interesting' reads about Malkin's potential availability....
Staal's is rather a lot more plausible to be honest, and you do have the prospects to make that work out.
Unlike some of my fellow Pens fans, I don't want a readymade, capable scoring winger in return, but rather high end talent on entry level contracts. After all, if we're trading Staal it will be because of wanting to shed salary.

At the same time, if you were to end up offering a package, that would likely also mean that your first choice "win now" strategies do not pan out. And you're unlikely to win now with Staal as a top6 center. He will be a stud down the line though, and I think much closer to Eric than people think.

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05-21-2009, 07:18 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Marksman View Post
Plekanec has that kind of career year only because he was playing with hot Kovalev, much of it on powerplay.
Wrong.

Plekanec got most of his points at even-strength, and that's when he and Kostitsyn carried Kovalev and not the other way around. (Well, "carry" is a strong word, but they both outproduced him significantly).

The "hot" Kovy was mostly hot on the power play, otherwise he was about as good as he was this year. Pleky and AKost were dominant at 5-on-5.

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05-21-2009, 10:38 AM
  #82
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Did you even watch hockey this year??

Did you see Plekanecs play?

Now have you seen J. Staal NOW deep in playoffs?

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05-21-2009, 10:41 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Did you even watch hockey this year??
Did you watch any hockey last year?

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05-21-2009, 10:49 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Did you watch any hockey last year?
Yeah I saw a couple of Afinoganov types having their big year, now they've come down to earth and people have figured out their soft, gutless perimeter play.

Won't stop the fanboys coming here suggesting we hold onto them forever incase they become the next Zetterberg on their 28th bdays. Same guys who suggest we take Afinoganov himself from the Sabres because he's gonna breakout anytime soon.

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05-21-2009, 11:03 AM
  #85
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1) Trade for a big centerman like Vinny or Jason Arnott
2) Re-sign Lang for 1yr/$2million
3) Let Koivu walk

1st center Vinny or Arnott
2nd center Lang
3rd center Lapierre
4th center Chipchura or Metro

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05-21-2009, 11:27 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marksman View Post
Plekanec has that kind of career year only because he was playing with hot Kovalev, much of it on powerplay.

Without that.... just look at this years production.

Just saying.
Staal played on Malkin's wing in his first season, when he scored 29 goals.

Just saying.

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Old
05-21-2009, 12:46 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Yeah I saw a couple of Afinoganov types having their big year, now they've come down to earth and people have figured out their soft, gutless perimeter play.
Classic style-over-substance response.

Me, I'm interested in effectiveness, not in style points. Because, let's face it -- attacking effective players because they are "soft, gutless perimeter players" is exactly that: rating players on style points. It's wanting players who play a certain way rather than players who win you hockey games.

The bottom line is still that Plekanec and Staal have had one good and one bad season over the last two years, and that Pleky's good season was better than Staal's good season and Pleky's bad season was better than Staal's bad season.

Plekanec would be ahead of Staal on the Montreal depth chart. He's more experienced and has been better over the last two years.

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05-21-2009, 01:15 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Classic style-over-substance response.

Me, I'm interested in effectiveness, not in style points. Because, let's face it -- attacking effective players because they are "soft, gutless perimeter players" is exactly that: rating players on style points. It's wanting players who play a certain way rather than players who win you hockey games.

The bottom line is still that Plekanec and Staal have had one good and one bad season over the last two years, and that Pleky's good season was better than Staal's good season and Pleky's bad season was better than Staal's bad season.

Plekanec would be ahead of Staal on the Montreal depth chart. He's more experienced and has been better over the last two years.
I like Staal a lot because he plays a fundamentally sound game, can be counted on in different situations, just a style of player that I like. Going forward, his #'s will be hard to evaluate as he'll play on a team that will be winger poor, due to the $ invested at C.

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05-21-2009, 02:40 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Plekanec would be ahead of Staal on the Montreal depth chart. He's more experienced and has been better over the last two years.
Classic look at stats only and not actual games. If Lang didn't get injured, Plekanec would've been getting 4th line minutes (if not pressbox minutes) down the stretch and against Boston, with his what 3 points in the last 30 games and being a turnover machine. The only reason he was playing is because the habs had no one else.

Staal is getting 17-20 TOI deep in the playoffs, on a team that has 2 of the top centres in the world.

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05-21-2009, 03:21 PM
  #90
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Last year Staal was terrible and Plekanec was great. This year, the roles are reversed. Only, Pleks was better last year than Staal is this year and Pleks was better this year than Staal was last year. So taking a bit of a longer view than what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, it's clear Plekanec would still be ahead.

Pleks had an off-year, but his career performance is still above Staal's at this point. He'd still likely be ahead on the depth chart. Down the road it may no longer be the case -- it may in fact not be the case next year if Pleky doesn't bounce back and Staal doesn't slip, but I'm fairly certain Plekanec will bounce back and Plekanec's best is currently better than Staal's best.

I stand by my statement: if Staal is a team's #1 center next year, that team has depth issues at center. He can probably be a decent enough #2 at this point, but in Montreal he'd need to beat Plekanec out and that's far from a foregone conclusion. He can help with size issues, but he's not a first-liner yet.

Heck, even with Plekanec's off year, Staal would have been third on this year's Habs roster, behind Koivu and Lang.

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05-21-2009, 03:28 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Last year Staal was terrible and Plekanec was great. This year, the roles are reversed. Only, Pleks was better last year than Staal is this year and Pleks was better this year than Staal was last year. So taking a bit of a longer view than what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, it's clear Plekanec would still be ahead.

Pleks had an off-year, but his career performance is still above Staal's at this point. He'd still likely be ahead on the depth chart. Down the road it may no longer be the case -- it may in fact not be the case next year if Pleky doesn't bounce back and Staal doesn't slip, but I'm fairly certain Plekanec will bounce back and Plekanec's best is currently better than Staal's best.

I stand by my statement: if Staal is a team's #1 center next year, that team has depth issues at center. He can probably be a decent enough #2 at this point, but in Montreal he'd need to beat Plekanec out and that's far from a foregone conclusion. He can help with size issues, but he's not a first-liner yet.

Heck, even with Plekanec's off year, Staal would have been third on this year's Habs roster, behind Koivu and Lang.
While many here underrate Plekanec, age has to be a huge consideration here. Plek is probably not going to get too much better at this point, while many of Staal's draft class are just starting their NHL careers. Because he made the big leagues so young, folks forget that he is the same age as Brassard, Okposo and Giroux. Staal has tons of room to get better.

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05-21-2009, 03:36 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Classic look at stats only and not actual games. If Lang didn't get injured, Plekanec would've been getting 4th line minutes (if not pressbox minutes) down the stretch and against Boston, with his what 3 points in the last 30 games and being a turnover machine. The only reason he was playing is because the habs had no one else.

Staal is getting 17-20 TOI deep in the playoffs, on a team that has 2 of the top centres in the world.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Plekanec would have been delegated to 3rd line duties and could have formed a great checking duo along with Higgins and Kosto.
Our 4th line would have been Lats/Laps/Laraque.

Metropolit would probably not even be on our team, or maybe we still would have gone for him as an insurance type for POs.

I'm not gonna argue that I want Plek over Staal, of course I'd chose Jordan.
But if Plekanec comes back focused and puts on a little more muscles, he can have many other great seasons like last year.

Both of them are great two way centers.

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05-21-2009, 03:38 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Last year Staal was terrible and Plekanec was great. This year, the roles are reversed. Only, Pleks was better last year than Staal is this year and Pleks was better this year than Staal was last year. So taking a bit of a longer view than what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, it's clear Plekanec would still be ahead.

Pleks had an off-year, but his career performance is still above Staal's at this point. He'd still likely be ahead on the depth chart. Down the road it may no longer be the case -- it may in fact not be the case next year if Pleky doesn't bounce back and Staal doesn't slip, but I'm fairly certain Plekanec will bounce back and Plekanec's best is currently better than Staal's best.

I stand by my statement: if Staal is a team's #1 center next year, that team has depth issues at center. He can probably be a decent enough #2 at this point, but in Montreal he'd need to beat Plekanec out and that's far from a foregone conclusion. He can help with size issues, but he's not a first-liner yet.

Heck, even with Plekanec's off year, Staal would have been third on this year's Habs roster, behind Koivu and Lang.
Wasn't Staal mostly used with Kennedy and Cooke? Shouldn't it be a factor? Or can we also believe that Staal might have transformed Kennedy into a much dangerous offensive player than he was looked at before? And could we say that Cooke revived a little because of him?

If you can say statistically that Plekanec is a little better 'cause of the stats you're talking about, can you also say that Staal's size, how he starts to use it, his defensive awareness and his overall package makes him a better package to have? I'm not saying that having him as our #1 centerman resolves all of our problems. But I really don't see how we would become weaker, on the contrary.

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05-21-2009, 05:03 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
While many here underrate Plekanec, age has to be a huge consideration here. Plek is probably not going to get too much better at this point, while many of Staal's draft class are just starting their NHL careers. Because he made the big leagues so young, folks forget that he is the same age as Brassard, Okposo and Giroux. Staal has tons of room to get better.
That's not my point. If you're building for the future, you take Staal over Plekanec every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He's overpaid right now, but the upside is much, much better.

If you're finding a center to be your #1 centerman next year, Staal isn't your guy. He's being treated as if he's this elite big #1 center guy, and he's not. Not yet, at least.

Either way, the hype and the last name means he's likely going to command too much return in a trade.

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05-21-2009, 05:11 PM
  #95
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That's not my point. If you're building for the future, you take Staal over Plekanec every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He's overpaid right now, but the upside is much, much better.

If you're finding a center to be your #1 centerman next year, Staal isn't your guy. He's being treated as if he's this elite big #1 center guy, and he's not. Not yet, at least.

Either way, the hype and the last name means he's likely going to command too much return in a trade.

Stop harping on this. I don't think it has as much truth as you think. He won't get NEAR what guys like Thornton, his brother, Crosby, Lecavalier, even Stastny, would get you in a trade.

Also, if you are doing this, the Pens will be looking for a guy to replace him, at a lesser cost, so why not trade Plekanec, and already you have a good headway done on the Habs part for the trade.

Remember, if the Pens want to trade him, its because they are looking to shed salary on the center line, to bolster up other aspects, or just simply be under the cap.

(I don't know what Shero foresees as his needs in the upcoming seasons, so I'm only speculating).

Plekanec, Weber, and two firsts would probably land you Staal. JMO.

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05-21-2009, 05:14 PM
  #96
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Wasn't Staal mostly used with Kennedy and Cooke? Shouldn't it be a factor? Or can we also believe that Staal might have transformed Kennedy into a much dangerous offensive player than he was looked at before? And could we say that Cooke revived a little because of him?
Or we could readily argue it was the other way around.

This year is the first year Staal is truly productive offensively -- a career year for him, in fact. Since it's not backed with any kind of historical information (and he has been rather inconsistent year-to-year to this point), for all we know he could go right back to his previous year's level next year, go on like this, or improve.

He's gonna be great in five years, sure, but that doesn't say much about what he'll be like next year.

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If you can say statistically that Plekanec is a little better 'cause of the stats you're talking about, can you also say that Staal's size, how he starts to use it, his defensive awareness and his overall package makes him a better package to have?
"Packages" are all well and nice and help with matchups, sure, but I'm more interested in results. If Plekanec gets better results than Staal (as he did last year), then Staal's size, defensive awareness, and overall package are secondary to the fact that Plekanec is a better hockey player. "Overall packages" are what you use to get results, but results (ie. helping the team win hockey games) is what's most important.

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I'm not saying that having him as our #1 centerman resolves all of our problems. But I really don't see how we would become weaker, on the contrary.
It depends on if Plekanec goes back to being 07-08 Pleky or stays 08-09 Pleky. If he goes back to the former and you replace 07-08 Pleky with 08-09 Staal, well, you have in fact become weaker.

At any rate, regardless of the Plekanec comparison, Staal as #1 center means the Habs' center line is weaker than it was this year because the Habs this year had at least two centers (Koivu and Lang) who did better than Staal. Unless, of course, Staal breaks out in a big way next year, but I don't think you can plan for this to happen on such a such timeframe for such a young player.

Acquiring Staal is a long-term move, not a next-year-we're-better move.

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05-21-2009, 05:19 PM
  #97
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Stop harping on this. I don't think it has as much truth as you think. He won't get NEAR what guys like Thornton, his brother, Crosby, Lecavalier, even Stastny, would get you in a trade.
I'm not sure about Lecavalier, given his albatross contract.

At any rate, not getting what Crosby gets in a trade doesn't necessarily imply he won't get significantly more than he is worth.

I mean, people here are ready to cast him as a first-line center next year, when he's clearly not (yet). That's the kind of thinking I am worried about. We'd be trading for upside and upside is inherently less valuable than the same amount of proven NHL performance.

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Plekanec, Weber, and two firsts would probably land you Staal. JMO.
See what I mean? That's too much.

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05-21-2009, 05:23 PM
  #98
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Or we could readily argue it was the other way around.

This year is the first year Staal is truly productive offensively -- a career year for him, in fact. Since it's not backed with any kind of historical information (and he has been rather inconsistent year-to-year to this point), for all we know he could go right back to his previous year's level next year, go on like this, or improve.

He's gonna be great in five years, sure, but that doesn't say much about what he'll be like next year.



"Packages" are all well and nice and help with matchups, sure, but I'm more interested in results. If Plekanec gets better results than Staal (as he did last year), then Staal's size, defensive awareness, and overall package are secondary to the fact that Plekanec is a better hockey player. "Overall packages" are what you use to get results, but results (ie. helping the team win hockey games) is what's most important.



It depends on if Plekanec goes back to being 07-08 Pleky or stays 08-09 Pleky. If he goes back to the former and you replace 07-08 Pleky with 08-09 Staal, well, you have in fact become weaker.

At any rate, regardless of the Plekanec comparison, Staal as #1 center means the Habs' center line is weaker than it was this year because the Habs this year had at least two centers (Koivu and Lang) who did better than Staal. Unless, of course, Staal breaks out in a big way next year, but I don't think you can plan for this to happen on such a such timeframe for such a young player.

Acquiring Staal is a long-term move, not a next-year-we're-better move.

Well, I for one prioritize the long-term, as I'm sure Whitesnake does, we might have our differences but I'm sure he agrees with me on this.

we have many who haven't even come up yet and will in the next few seasons join the club. That's why I would much prefer to get Staal than a Thornton or Marleau or Lecavalier.

He would be part of the transition, instead of being very old when the other players reach their prime.

And if getting Staal means we'll drop in the standings in the next two seasons, I wouldn't mind, it would just mean higher draft picks and a more solid base for when our youth have grown.

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05-21-2009, 05:30 PM
  #99
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And if getting Staal means we'll drop in the standings in the next two seasons, I wouldn't mind, it would just mean higher draft picks and a more solid base for when our youth have grown.
That's fine if that's the plan and you don't trade way over value for Staal. But the proposal was for Staal to center Montreal's top line next year as a way to solve our center depth issues, and I believe it's nigh-impossible to not badly overpay a player as hyped-up as Staal is.

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05-21-2009, 05:31 PM
  #100
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I'm not sure about Lecavalier, given his albatross contract.

At any rate, not getting what Crosby gets in a trade doesn't necessarily imply he won't get significantly more than he is worth.

I mean, people here are ready to cast him as a first-line center next year, when he's clearly not (yet). That's the kind of thinking I am worried about. We'd be trading for upside and upside is inherently less valuable than the same amount of proven NHL performance.



See what I mean? That's too much.
Well to me it isn't.

Because firstly, Staal replaces Pleks (who I like very much, and I would feel lousy about it, but its for the better, IMO), then, Weber is not a rare commodity for the Habs, as we have Subban and Korneev who are both small, right handed and offensively minded, so we need to get rid of at least one of them before we have two or three small guys on the right side on defense.

And then the two first picks... well I just guessed, it might cost less, but if its what it takes, I wouldn't mind.

There aren't many centermen with Staal's untapped potential, besides the ones who have proven their potential yet would cost much more.

Staal has all the necessary tools to make a first line center and we need to get bigger there, so to me, its a move forward, as we will have a big center capable of producing and to boot he is still very young and would grow with all the other young players we have.

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