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NO Lecavalier for me ;(

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Old
05-21-2009, 10:03 AM
  #76
Mad Habber
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Wow i want some of that ish you are on!

You have got to be kidding. The habs aren't the only team that want this guy and he is going to cost a lot.
Well until someone other than Eklund and Garrioch actually confirms who is also interested, I won't believe that there are too many teams in play here.

Not very many teams actually have the cap space. If TB trades him, it isn't to take on a big crappy contract back. It's to dump him.

You can claim LA is interested, which is fine, but I don't see them or anyone else willing to offer much in exchange. LA has the young cheap stars to trade, but those cheap stars are not going to remain cheap for very long. I don't see anyone wanting to overpay to get that contract of his.

Vinny also supposedely has a say as to where he goes. Does he want to go to LA, I don't know. From the last article I saw on RDS a couple of days ago, I get the impression that Vinny wants to be part of a winner now. But that's just my impression.

Either way, I'm okay with it. But I don't want him if the price tag is too steep. I'd rather try and get the Sedins, or look at other options from teams in cap trouble.

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05-21-2009, 11:08 AM
  #77
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I believe Los Angeles can easily outbid us for Vinny. Their young talent is better than ours and they have something that Tampa wants and needs...a potential # 1 defensemen in Jack Johnson.
They'd be absolutely crazy to give up young talent for Vinny. They have no chance at the cup and Vinny's contract would set them back for years. It would be the worst thing they could possibly do to their club.
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Los Angeles is rumored to want Vinny and they are able to offer their 4th overall pick along with Johnson and Mollar and it wouldn't affect their team that much. This trade easily beats anything we can offer tampa.
Good. Let them have him then.

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05-21-2009, 11:36 AM
  #78
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Let them have Vinny, we'll take Anze Kopitar for our #1 center.

And sign Ales Kotalik.

I like K names.

InBobwetrust

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05-21-2009, 12:06 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
...I'd rather give him 8 million and hope for the best, then trade for a guy who will be costing 10 million a season and be locked up for 10 years. Last I checked Gab wasn't looking for a 10 year deal, maybe 7-8 million, but not 10 years. Furthermore, what would we also need to give up in order to get Vinny? Subban? McDonaugh? Throw in some picks? Maybe even a roster player?

I agree with you on a lot of points. I think Gaborik is underrated a lot here for habs' fans. When healthy, he's an incredible player, Faster that Lecavalier, better scorer than Lecavalier, Younger than Lecavalier, and will come cheaper that Lecavalier while not costing us any prospects (which is a very important point of the equation since it means the GM could also do a significant trade to add to the Gaborik signing)

But I admit there are some aspects to Lecavalier that are hardly rationnal but that count in the mix.

Of course, the most important thing is that he's a centerman, something habs need more than a Winger like Gaborik. And he's big and can play tough, something the habs at least as much as they would need a Gaborik. He has won in the past. And yes, like it or not, he's francophone, and I think that would ease the job of some anglo on the team...

So all in all, I would say trade for Lecavalier, and sign Gaborik. Work the youngsters elsewhere in the line up and hope for the best. It's 2009, it's time the Habs try a new way of building a team

But you know what? I'm not even sure of what I'm saying...

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05-21-2009, 02:20 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post
Vinny also supposedely has a say as to where he goes. Does he want to go to LA, I don't know. From the last article I saw on RDS a couple of days ago, I get the impression that Vinny wants to be part of a winner now. But that's just my impression.
vinny's no trade clause kicks in july 1st (when his new contract begins). it generally goes that franchise players have a say in where they want to go before a blockbuster trade, but knowing tampa's history, they might show up one day and say "vinny, you're going to l.a..."

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05-21-2009, 04:08 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by inBobwetrust View Post
Let them have Vinny, we'll take Anze Kopitar for our #1 center.

And sign Ales Kotalik.

I like K names.

InBobwetrust
I'd much rather have Kopitar actually.

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Old
05-21-2009, 05:26 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'd much rather have Kopitar actually.
Unproven 22 year old who's signed for just as much as Lecavalier. Thanks.

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05-21-2009, 06:10 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by MaxLapierre View Post
Unproven 22 year old who's signed for just as much as Lecavalier. Thanks.
Solid point.

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05-21-2009, 06:26 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MaxLapierre View Post
Unproven 22 year old who's signed for just as much as Lecavalier. Thanks.
Not quite..

Lecavalier's salary is at 10M and his cap hit 7.7, he's signed for 11years. His salary only will drop significantly in the 17-18 season.
Kopitar's salary is the same as his cap hit at 6.8M, signed for 7years.

Contracts are not similar at all, and 1M more of cap space can be very useful.

His career scoring average is at 71pts/82gp. Not saying he proved anything, but I'd have to think long and hard on who to chose between Vinny and Anze.

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Old
05-21-2009, 07:04 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by MaxLapierre View Post
Unproven 22 year old who's signed for just as much as Lecavalier. Thanks.
The key being "22 year old". You buy low and sell high.

Why invest in a guy who's best years are behind him? Seriously dude, think about it.

Kopitar is probably a point per game center in waiting. No, he's never going to be Crosby but over the long haul he's a much better choice. Vinny is barely a point per game player at this stage. Do you think anyone would have a problem with Vinny's contract if he were 25? Of course not. The problem is that he's 30 and at the half life of his careerr. Kopitar's is just getting started.

You're welcome.

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Old
05-21-2009, 07:06 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not quite..

Lecavalier's salary is at 10M and his cap hit 7.7, he's signed for 11years. His salary only will drop significantly in the 17-18 season.
Kopitar's salary is the same as his cap hit at 6.8M, signed for 7years.

Contracts are not similar at all, and 1M more of cap space can be very useful.

His career scoring average is at 71pts/82gp. Not saying he proved anything, but I'd have to think long and hard on who to chose between Vinny and Anze.
I'd much rather be paying 6.8 to a guy in the prime of his career vs. being stuck with a player who's sucking up 7.5 mil into his 40s.

Vinny probably isn't good enough to put us over the top with the team we have now anyway. Kopitar would be with us as most of our players develop. I'd much rather have him.

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05-21-2009, 10:06 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'd much rather be paying 6.8 to a guy in the prime of his career vs. being stuck with a player who's sucking up 7.5 mil into his 40s.

Vinny probably isn't good enough to put us over the top with the team we have now anyway. Kopitar would be with us as most of our players develop. I'd much rather have him.
a) He won't be in his 40's

b) The difference here is that the Buy Low/Sell High strategy works if you had any clue what you're talking about:

GM's pay a premium for potential. Kopitar is going to cost Carey Price+PK Subban+(More Stuff) at the very least. Besides that, LA does not want to trade him not at all.

Lecavalier's price is not only lower, he's a proven winner. Kopitar has never been in the playoffs and he could easily turn out a Thomas Plekanec in the playoffs. He's playing in a stress-free environment in terms of demanded results and the fanbase. Lecavalier has Le Gros Bill written all over him, he's a calm, cool leader-type. I'd rather have Lecavalier on my team than 99.9% of all the players in the NHL.

He's THAT good. He's exactly what this team needs AND he's a homeboy. He grew up idolizing the Montreal Canadiens (not the Nordiques) and he wears #4 to honour one of the greatest players ever.

He scores goals, he makes plays, he crushes his opponents (ask Plekanec), he fights and he leads.

He'll do so until he's 37 at the least. Rolston got signed to a 5m+ contract (to NJD, a well-managed team) and he's half the player Lecavalier is.

Enough with "potential", our team has "potential" written all over it and it's failing.

The only perenially good teams are the ones that have an amazing core and a favourable mix of solid, dedicated veterans to unproven youth. Look at the New England Patriots, Manchester United, Barcelona, Detroit Red Wings, New Jersey Devils, and every single cup winner in the past two decades.

Every single one of those teams has at least one superstar player. We don't and haven't since Roy in '93.

I think our team has an offense of three 2nd lines. It doesn't work. We don't have the player that will step on the ice, look you in the eye and make you want to give up before the puck drops. Lecavalier is PROVEN to be that player. We can get him for essentially spare parts.

Socialist teams don't win cups. "oh but Higgins is a good team player", "plekanec has speed tho", "gorges is really good on his line"

That kinda stuff is a waste of time. Detroit has Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hossa and Lindstrom as their actual core. Pittsburgh has two young phenoms and Fleury. Every other team has a similar build except us. I'm sick of it.

I'm sick of using the "potential" card as well. We need that core, that experienced core, more than anything.

I'd turn down Kopitar if I could get Lecavalier.

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05-22-2009, 12:19 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
They'd be absolutely crazy to give up young talent for Vinny. They have no chance at the cup and Vinny's contract would set them back for years.
Says who.... I think they are closer then we are...

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Old
05-22-2009, 01:46 AM
  #89
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Says who.... I think they are closer then we are...
Far from it. Montreal has more depth, more revenues to sustain a high cap, and many youth coming up. Proof is the last three seasons. When the Habs have a bad season, they finish 8th or 10th, but finish first in the conference when they have a good season, whereas Tampa finishes 8th when they have a good season, and finish at the bottom when they have a bad season.

If you think Montreal has trouble with its defense, you haven't seen Tampa play.

I see much more positives with the Habs's situation.

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Old
05-22-2009, 07:37 AM
  #90
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by MaxLapierre View Post
a) He won't be in his 40's
He'll be 40 years old with a 7.5 cap hit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxLapierre View Post
b) The difference here is that the Buy Low/Sell High strategy works if you had any clue what you're talking about:

GM's pay a premium for potential. Kopitar is going to cost Carey Price+PK Subban+(More Stuff) at the very least. Besides that, LA does not want to trade him not at all.

Lecavalier's price is not only lower, he's a proven winner. Kopitar has never been in the playoffs and he could easily turn out a Thomas Plekanec in the playoffs. He's playing in a stress-free environment in terms of demanded results and the fanbase. Lecavalier has Le Gros Bill written all over him, he's a calm, cool leader-type. I'd rather have Lecavalier on my team than 99.9% of all the players in the NHL.

He's THAT good. He's exactly what this team needs AND he's a homeboy. He grew up idolizing the Montreal Canadiens (not the Nordiques) and he wears #4 to honour one of the greatest players ever.

He scores goals, he makes plays, he crushes his opponents (ask Plekanec), he fights and he leads.

He'll do so until he's 37 at the least. Rolston got signed to a 5m+ contract (to NJD, a well-managed team) and he's half the player Lecavalier is.

Enough with "potential", our team has "potential" written all over it and it's failing.

The only perenially good teams are the ones that have an amazing core and a favourable mix of solid, dedicated veterans to unproven youth. Look at the New England Patriots, Manchester United, Barcelona, Detroit Red Wings, New Jersey Devils, and every single cup winner in the past two decades.

Every single one of those teams has at least one superstar player. We don't and haven't since Roy in '93.

I think our team has an offense of three 2nd lines. It doesn't work. We don't have the player that will step on the ice, look you in the eye and make you want to give up before the puck drops. Lecavalier is PROVEN to be that player. We can get him for essentially spare parts.

Socialist teams don't win cups. "oh but Higgins is a good team player", "plekanec has speed tho", "gorges is really good on his line"

That kinda stuff is a waste of time. Detroit has Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hossa and Lindstrom as their actual core. Pittsburgh has two young phenoms and Fleury. Every other team has a similar build except us. I'm sick of it.

I'm sick of using the "potential" card as well. We need that core, that experienced core, more than anything.

I'd turn down Kopitar if I could get Lecavalier.
I realize we have no chance at Kopitar. I never said we did.

I said that we'd be better off with him than Vinny.

A few years ago, Bobby Ryan probably could've been had from the Ducks. They were competing for the cup and if we'd have made a serious enough offer we probably could've snagged him. I made several posts saying that that's the kind of player we should go after and that we weren't going anywhere anyways. But guys like you came back and screamed that he was unproven and that we'd be crazy to deal away players like Koivu and Souray for him.

Fast forward two years later, we missed the playoffs that year, the Ducks won the cup and we lost Souray for nothing. Meanwhile Koivu is well past his best before date and good old 'unproven' Bobby Ryan put up more goals per minute played than almost any player in the league. Do you think the Ducks would give him up now for anything? No. Why? Because once the guy hits his stride no team will part with him.

What do you think made Sam Pollock so successful dude? He invested in potential, dealing away vets for picks and prospects. It paid off in spades for him. You get rid of players with diminishing returns you don't go after them.

As for us getting Vinny? If we were cup favourites and he'd put us over the top I'd be all for it. As it is though he might give us a shot but I'm not so sure its worth going after him with that contract of his. And if I had to pay through the nose in terms of players to give up it would make ZERO sense to go after him rather than a potential star player who's 22 and about to hit his prime while making less money. You trade for what the guy WILL do for you, not what he HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

As for Kopitar being uproven, he had one less point than Vinny this year. And he's only one season removed from putting up 77 points. He could easliy outpoint Vinny this year and is almost sure to do so in the next few seasons. And the real kicker? He's cheaper than Vinny is! So what the hell are you talking about man? You can yell and scream for a star player all you want but Vinny's best days are probably behind him. A smart GM grabs guys with star potential and then reaps the rewards. He doesn't go after over the hill guys... that's the NY Rangers/Toronto way of doing things.

Again, if TB want us to eat the contract fine. Vinny is probably worthi ti if we don't have to give up any substantial players or prospects. But if we have to pay through the nose on that end we should tell them to take a hike and go after younger players with better contracts.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 05-22-2009 at 07:50 AM.
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Old
05-22-2009, 07:42 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
Says who.... I think they are closer then we are...
Not in the short term. (Assuming of course we re-sign our guys, otherwise you could be right and all bets are off)

They've got a lot of good young players though. They've already made a few boneheaded moves for short term gains though. If they're stupid enough to deal away Kopitar for Vinny, it won't be long before they regret it.

They were pretty much even statistically last season and it wouldn't be a shock if Kopitar outproduces him as early as this year.

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05-22-2009, 07:50 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by inBobwetrust View Post
Let them have Vinny, we'll take Anze Kopitar for our #1 center.
Of course we'd take Kopitar, but he ain't up for the taking!

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05-22-2009, 07:51 AM
  #93
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Of course we'd take Kopitar, but he ain't up for the taking!
Sadly.

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05-22-2009, 08:50 AM
  #94
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I don't think there is any denying though that Kopitar could turn out to be a guy who doesn't show up in the playoffs or play well under pressure. (could be, not is)

Where as with Vinny you know what you're getting, a declining 1st line C who likely will only be worth his contract for the next 3 years at best.

Why do you guys want to take on a 7.7 cap hit contract for a guy whose best days are behind him, seriously? That's what I don't get, it's not like there isn't any other choice out there, it's called patience. If you honestly think we have a chance to win the cup next year you're naive. We need to wait for a good C to become available via UFA, or a more realistic trade to surface.

Dallas owes us somebody good right about now

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