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Old
05-22-2009, 01:00 PM
  #26
GoneFullHextall
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not saying I want Lemaire at all but firewagon hockey isnt going to win squat in todays NHL.

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05-22-2009, 01:13 PM
  #27
Haute Couturier
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I'm not a fan of the trap, but it would certainly minimize our goaltending woes. I wonder what Lemaire would do with an offensively talented team as this one. Unfortunately Stevens isn't going anywhere.

Maybe Lemaire can come into the fold as an assistant or a front office job? He wants to be on the East coast.

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05-22-2009, 01:33 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I'm not a fan of the trap, but it would certainly minimize our goaltending woes. I wonder what Lemaire would do with an offensively talented team as this one. Unfortunately Stevens isn't going anywhere.
Same thing he always does...our talent put into that type of system could be rather dynamic, but it would require great attention to detail. The key to the offense created by trapping teams is counter-attack offense off of your opponents mistakes.

Our guys can finish with pretty much anyone.

Quote:
Maybe Lemaire can come into the fold as an assistant or a front office job? He wants to be on the East coast.
I very much doubt at this point in his career he would have any interest in being an assistant to anyone on a bench, and it isn't as if a front office job would really have the desired impact on the ice.

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Old
05-22-2009, 01:47 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Same thing he always does...our talent put into that type of system could be rather dynamic, but it would require great attention to detail. The key to the offense created by trapping teams is counter-attack offense off of your opponents mistakes.

Our guys can finish with pretty much anyone.
That's another reason I believe a more defensive minded system would benefit the Flyers. Many of the chances the Flyers create at even strength are from a counter-attack anyway; they very rarely have a shift where they pin the opposition for any length of time.

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Old
05-22-2009, 02:05 PM
  #30
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i'd take him, but it looks like stevens is here for the duration of his contract. lemaire would certainly help coburn and parent develop, not to mention all the other young defensemen we have. hell, maybe he can make carle and jones live up to their contracts. wouldn't that be a treat?

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Old
05-22-2009, 02:16 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
His style of play not leading to offense is one of the worst non-truths that has existed in the NHL discourse for some time. The really good Devils teams were REALLY good offensive teams...not just defensive teams.
Exactly what I was thinking. The great teams play a tight defensive game and then absolutely pounce on the offensive opportunities that creates. It's what the Devils did, it's what Richards does so well on the PK, we could be seeing that at ES as well with the right system. This team, with very few changes, is already custom built for this. They just need to be shown that it works.

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Old
05-22-2009, 02:54 PM
  #32
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Look at Lemaire's record in Minnesota - missed the playoffs in five of eight years, lost in the first round in two others.

He won't have a Martin Brodeur to man the pipes here, and he can't implement his erstwhile trademark clutch-and-grab "system" in the new NHL. Absent those, he's just another retread. His record in Minnesota shows that.

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Old
05-22-2009, 03:22 PM
  #33
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Uh, you know the Wild were an expansion team right? They made the playoffs in their 3rd year and went to the conference finals with Dwyane Roloson and Manny Fernandez. Hardly All-Star goaltending.

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Old
05-22-2009, 03:29 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Look at Lemaire's record in Minnesota - missed the playoffs in five of eight years, lost in the first round in two others.

He won't have a Martin Brodeur to man the pipes here, and he can't implement his erstwhile trademark clutch-and-grab "system" in the new NHL. Absent those, he's just another retread. His record in Minnesota shows that.
It was practically a miracle they even made the playoffs in 2 of the 3 years the Wild actually qualified. When they actually had expectations of success (and Gaborik played a full season), Lemaire took the most talented roster he's had in Minnesota to a Northwest Division crown in the most competitive division in the league in 2008.

Given that the talent level on the Wild roster during Lemaire's tenure has been anything but enviable, I think he's done a commendable job.

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Old
05-22-2009, 03:39 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Look at Lemaire's record in Minnesota - missed the playoffs in five of eight years, lost in the first round in two others.

He won't have a Martin Brodeur to man the pipes here, and he can't implement his erstwhile trademark clutch-and-grab "system" in the new NHL. Absent those, he's just another retread. His record in Minnesota shows that.
You are too much fun.

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Old
05-22-2009, 04:02 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Look at Lemaire's record in Minnesota - missed the playoffs in five of eight years, lost in the first round in two others.

He won't have a Martin Brodeur to man the pipes here, and he can't implement his erstwhile trademark clutch-and-grab "system" in the new NHL. Absent those, he's just another retread. His record in Minnesota shows that.

If you bring me coal and I make gold out of it, even if i've tried 10 times, I still made ****ing gold out of coal.

Stevens made a goddamned cake by reading the directions on the back.

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Old
05-22-2009, 04:04 PM
  #37
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Orgazional policy

[QUOTE=IrishSniper87;19652692]So? Maybe Holmgrem gets fired soon.[/QUOTE

Change is an inside job. Let's start with a franchise goaltender.

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Old
05-22-2009, 04:13 PM
  #38
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You people are amazing.

== You name a coach who causes you to drench the fronts of your shirts with saliva, then

== I point out that their accomplishments aren't worth salivating over, then

== You claim they didn't have good players to help them accomplish what they would have accomplished if they only had had the players to help them accomplish it, because they're great coaches. The record doesn't matter - you just know they are.

Ted Nolan

Brent Sutter

Jacques Lemaire

Pat Burns

Same old story, same old mantra, played out over and over ad nauseum like an endless run of Les Mis.

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Old
05-22-2009, 04:55 PM
  #39
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I doubt he wants to coach again. Stevens is here to stay! I don't care, as long as our defense improves this summer lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Uh, you know the Wild were an expansion team right? They made the playoffs in their 3rd year and went to the conference finals with Dwyane Roloson and Manny Fernandez. Hardly All-Star goaltending.
Yeah that was crazy
I remember this time last year Columbus fans were *****ing about how Minnesota keeps making the playoffs, and they weren't. (since they entered the league the same year blah blah). Lemaire helped the wild become pretty successful right out of the gate

This year they only missed the playoffs by 1 point, and had a really crappy line-up all year

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Old
05-22-2009, 05:44 PM
  #40
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If record is so important to you JXC, why do you stand up for Stevens?

He's won 107 out of 238 career games, and when he didn't finish dead last by a country mile, he's 11-12 in the playoffs.

You're telling me we can't do better than that?

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Old
05-22-2009, 05:45 PM
  #41
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You are too much fun.
It's Mr. Negative. We all love it . It keeps us all going on this board.

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Old
05-22-2009, 05:48 PM
  #42
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Keenan was just fired in Calgary today (as per tsn.ca). I'd love to see Mike come back here.

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Old
05-22-2009, 05:48 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
You people are amazing.

== You name a coach who causes you to drench the fronts of your shirts with saliva, then

== I point out that their accomplishments aren't worth salivating over, then

== You claim they didn't have good players to help them accomplish what they would have accomplished if they only had had the players to help them accomplish it, because they're great coaches. The record doesn't matter - you just know they are.

Ted Nolan

Brent Sutter

Jacques Lemaire

Pat Burns

Same old story, same old mantra, played out over and over ad nauseum like an endless run of Les Mis.
Jacques Lemaire (15 seasons): 1 Stanley Cup, 4 trips to the Conference Finals, 4 Division Championships

Pat Burns (14 seasons): 1 Stanley Cup, 1 other Stanley Cup Finals appearance, 4 trips to the Conference Finals, 3 Division Championships

Brent Sutter (2 seasons): 1 Division Championship

Ted Nolan (4 seasons): 1 Division Championship

John Stevens (3 seasons): 1 trip to the Conference Finals

Players carry the ultimate responsibility, because they're the ones on the ice, but coaches make a difference. The high turnover of coaches in the NHL is proof enough that, once the message goes stale, it's time to try a new motivator.

As for the coaches you listed, Lemaire and Nolan have motivated teams to produce extraordinary results with ordinary or inferior talent. Sutter came into the NHL coaching ranks with a lot of hype after great success in the junior ranks, most notably back-to-back undefeated records at the World Junior Championships; he has since led the Devils in two successful regular seasons but playoff disappointments. Pat Burns is the only coach on the list who has taken two teams to the Stanley Cup Finals. These accomplishments aren't impressive? Only Sutter's two seasons look unimpressive on the surface. I give him a lot of credit for bailing on the first system he implemented in New Jersey and switching to a more conventional defensive system when it was clear his original idea wouldn't work with his players.

You say some of us argue that these coaches get results with inferior players and the credit belongs to the coaches alone. I say these coaches deserve praise because they helped bad teams achieve good results, good teams achieve great results, helped great teams reach the pinnacle of success, or some combination. You don't win championships with bad players; you don't normally make the playoffs with bad players, either. Conversely, the axe usually falls on the coach's head if a team composed of 'good' players misses the playoffs... rightfully so.

I've relaxed my opinion that Stevens is currently unfit to get the Flyers to the next level because I think there are other issues to address before looking to fire the coach. If coaches are so irrelevant, though, why even bother having a head coach at all?

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Old
05-22-2009, 06:13 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
You people are amazing.

== You name a coach who causes you to drench the fronts of your shirts with saliva, then

== I point out that their accomplishments aren't worth salivating over, then

== You claim they didn't have good players to help them accomplish what they would have accomplished if they only had had the players to help them accomplish it, because they're great coaches. The record doesn't matter - you just know they are.

Ted Nolan

Brent Sutter

Jacques Lemaire

Pat Burns

Same old story, same old mantra, played out over and over ad nauseum like an endless run of Les Mis.
How many SC does he have as a player?
How many as head coach?
How many as assistant?
How many Adams trophies?

What is it that you are trying to say? no idea, like always..

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Old
05-22-2009, 07:36 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Keenan was just fired in Calgary today (as per tsn.ca). I'd love to see Mike come back here.
I wouldn't

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Old
05-22-2009, 08:56 PM
  #46
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I wouldn't
Why not? The guy has a reputation for getting the best out of young players and helping players who haven't achieved their potential reach their potential. Not only that, look at the list of who's who and see who has career years with Keenan as coach. I could see him working magic with Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR, Coburn, Carle, Sbisa, etc.....The guy just has 'it' with regards to working with young talent.

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Old
05-22-2009, 10:22 PM
  #47
JXC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The high turnover of coaches in the NHL is proof enough that, once the message goes stale, it's time to try a new motivator.
Every year, teams try new motivators. Do they ever really succeed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
You say some of us argue that these coaches get results with inferior players and the credit belongs to the coaches alone.
No, I say that many people here have such hatred for John Stevens that any name, ANY NAME, that pops up as available is seen as a potential Godsend. Then I point out those coaches' records and the haters go scurrying for Old Reliable : "He got results with a mediocre roster!!!". As if there's anyone on this site who could give you chapter and verse on the Minnesota Wild's blueline corps.

A few months back, there were fellas here saying Nolan > Stevens because Nolan almost took the Isles to a playoff berth one year.

"AHL roster," they said, "And he had them competing!"

It's surreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Conversely, the axe usually falls on the coach's head if a team composed of 'good' players misses the playoffs... rightfully so.
"Rightfully so" is in the eyes of the beholder.

Remember when Otttawa fired Paddock and everyone here said: "We should do that too!"

How'd it work out for Ottawa? I wonder what their record is since they brought in new motivation.

Seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I think there are other issues to address before looking to fire the coach.
I agree. Fans oftentimes lambast coaches because they are fearful of confronting realities about their favorite players.


Last edited by JXC: 05-22-2009 at 10:28 PM.
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Old
05-22-2009, 10:24 PM
  #48
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Why not? The guy has a reputation for getting the best out of young players and helping players who haven't achieved their potential reach their potential.
Why is he being shown the door in Calgary then?

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Old
05-22-2009, 11:17 PM
  #49
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Why is he being shown the door in Calgary then?
I don't know. Why are you a Randy "I can't skate without tripping over my own two feet" Jones fan?

***And for the record, there's a lot more youth in Philadelphia than there is in Calgary.

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Old
05-23-2009, 09:23 AM
  #50
Ex Storm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I agree. Fans oftentimes lambast coaches because they are fearful of confronting realities about their favorite players.
No. Fans oftentimes lambast coaches for the same reason coaches get fired - it's easier to blame one person than turn over an entire roster of players.

One could look at this roster of Flyers and try to turn over at least a dozen of them to improve the team in many areas. But, that's not possible right now. So, find a new coach and see how that works.

If the coach has so little impact, why are you against a new one? What difference does it make to you? Is it the underdog thing? Same reason you like Jonesy?

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