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Thrashers 1st round pick

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Old
05-23-2009, 11:14 PM
  #51
CertifiedPublicGuin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
To Boston
4th overall

To Atlanta
Bergeron
2009 1st round pick (25th overall)

If people say that this is not enough value from the Bruins, then I will go back to ignoring the trade rumor and free agent talk section of hfboards.

This deal makes a lot of sense for Atlanta because it gives them more scoring and toughness, and a decent 1-2 punch at center with Little and Bergeron. The only way it does not make sense for Atlanta is if they are in complete rebuilding mode and hoping to be a bottom 3 team next year. I don't think that is the case, however.

I'm not sure this works for Boston. If they were to trade Bergeron, it would make more sense for them to trade him in the 7-10 range and target Kulikov (Boston is always after a puck moving defenseman). If they traded for a pick in this range, they could probably keep their first.

In that case, just so you'll go away..... "this is not enough value from the bruins."

Simply put, Bergeron has not shown that he's the same player that he was before the injury and didn't show signs of righting the ship in the playoffs. The 25th pick isn't enticing enough to take on a player who has shown (quite unfortunately) to have been significantly affected by injury.

I'm not here to tell Atlanta fans what they should think, but if this were a deal that I had been presented, I'd have to say not a chance.

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Old
05-24-2009, 01:26 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
To Boston
4th overall

To Atlanta
Bergeron
2009 1st round pick (25th overall)

If people say that this is not enough value from the Bruins, then I will go back to ignoring the trade rumor and free agent talk section of hfboards.

This deal makes a lot of sense for Atlanta because it gives them more scoring and toughness, and a decent 1-2 punch at center with Little and Bergeron. The only way it does not make sense for Atlanta is if they are in complete rebuilding mode and hoping to be a bottom 3 team next year. I don't think that is the case, however.

I'm not sure this works for Boston. If they were to trade Bergeron, it would make more sense for them to trade him in the 7-10 range and target Kulikov (Boston is always after a puck moving defenseman). If they traded for a pick in this range, they could probably keep their first.
Not enough value. I'd much rather have Kane or MPS. One more hit and Bergeron's career is done. I feel for the guy, but I'm not giving up the #4 for him plus a later-rounder. I hope Dealin' Donnie keeps the pick and drafts a star player we'll see for years to come.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:40 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
But he wasn't right.
He was right. With what you've proposed, Carter would definitely be involved.

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Old
05-24-2009, 02:59 AM
  #54
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Ah for the fun of it.

To Atlanta:
Spezza

Atlanta gets a center to play with Kovolchuk.

To Ottawa:
Carter
Atlanta's 2009 1st
Esposito
Phillie's 2010 3rd

Ottawa gets Carter to replace Spezza and some pieces for the future. Ottawa gains 2million in cap space.

To Phillie
Lehtonen
Kelly

Phillie gets the goalie they need and a PK specialist who can fill the void on the forward ranks. Allowing Briere to center the 1st line and Richards to center the 2. Phillie also doesn't have to give up JVR to get Lehtonen.

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Old
05-24-2009, 03:04 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfire View Post
Ah for the fun of it.

To Atlanta:
Spezza

Atlanta gets a center to play with Kovolchuk.

To Ottawa:
Carter
Atlanta's 2009 1st
Esposito
Phillie's 2010 3rd

Ottawa gets Carter to replace Spezza and some pieces for the future. Ottawa gains 2million in cap space.

To Phillie
Lehtonen
Kelly

Phillie gets the goalie they need and a PK specialist who can fill the void on the forward ranks. Allowing Briere to center the 1st line and Richards to center the 2. Phillie also doesn't have to give up JVR to get Lehtonen.
We're giving up Lehtonen, Esposito, and a 4th overall and all we get in return is Spezza? The guy is good, but there better be something else added on to that.

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Old
05-24-2009, 07:41 AM
  #56
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4th overall is pretty much MPS, so I'd say;

Top Pairing Defenceman or Top Line Foward

+ 1st in 09

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Old
05-24-2009, 07:47 AM
  #57
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I think Lecavalier and Mike Smith for the 4th Pick and Lehtonen works pretty well for both teams.

Vinny and Kovalchuck become a lethal duo. Lightning add Hedman and MSP or Kane to Stamkos and are as deep in young talent as anyone.

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Old
05-24-2009, 09:46 AM
  #58
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To Atl: Gomez, 1st, mid level prospect

To NY: 4th overall + salary dump/bad contract?

Atl gets a center for Kovy, a 1st round (i think 19th) and a mid level prospect (d-man or forward)

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Old
05-24-2009, 09:46 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankspace6 View Post
We're giving up Lehtonen, Esposito, and a 4th overall and all we get in return is Spezza? The guy is good, but there better be something else added on to that.
philly gets bent. ottawa gets a huge steal. no way spezza gets all that.

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Old
05-24-2009, 09:51 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
To Boston
4th overall

To Atlanta
Bergeron
2009 1st round pick (25th overall)

If people say that this is not enough value from the Bruins, then I will go back to ignoring the trade rumor and free agent talk section of hfboards.

This deal makes a lot of sense for Atlanta because it gives them more scoring and toughness, and a decent 1-2 punch at center with Little and Bergeron. The only way it does not make sense for Atlanta is if they are in complete rebuilding mode and hoping to be a bottom 3 team next year. I don't think that is the case, however.

I'm not sure this works for Boston. If they were to trade Bergeron, it would make more sense for them to trade him in the 7-10 range and target Kulikov (Boston is always after a puck moving defenseman). If they traded for a pick in this range, they could probably keep their first.
Then basically Lupul + 1st should get us around 4th overall...and he certainly won't.


Lupul: 79 GP - 25 G - 25 A - 50 P - 0.63 PPG - 0.32 GPG
Staal: 82 GP - 22 G - 27 A - 49 P - 0.60 PPG - 0.27 GPG
Bergeron: 64 GP - 8 G - 31 A - 39 P - 0.61 PPG - 0.13 GPG

Lupul may have looked lazy this year, but he played on a line with puck hogs in Carter and Hartnell. That's hardly the perfect environment for a sniper. Despite that he still managed 50 points.

I'm not defending his contract, but:

Bergeron: $4.75m
Lupul: $4.25m
Staal: $4.00m

Everyone is clearly going to claim that Bergeron and Staal are obviously more valuable...why? Well likely because both have been around that 70 point block years ago. Staal got 68 in his rookie season, and Bergeron got 73 and 70 before getting injured.

The case on Bergeron is that he got a concussion and his points dropped off drastically, but he's apparently still a very good third line center on the Bruins who plays both ways. Staal's claim to fame is that he's on the third line focusing on defense and physicality so he can't possibly put up as many points as other players.

Lupul is playing on the Flyers top line, usually against other teams' top lines, with two linemates who aren't exactly going to do him any favors. And people say that Lupul is someone carried by his teammates?

Besides if you want to claim that Bergeron was injured why can't you say that about Lupul last year? He was injured most of this season and is coming back. His wasn't a concussion so I have to say he has at least as much a chance of getting back to his pre-injury form as Bergeron.

Lupul 06-07: 50 GP - 20 G - 26 A - 46 P - 0.82 PPG - 0.40 GPG

That's when he was playing with Richards on pace for 33~ goals and 67~ points.

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Old
05-24-2009, 09:56 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfire View Post
Ah for the fun of it.

To Atlanta:
Spezza

Atlanta gets a center to play with Kovolchuk.

To Ottawa:
Carter
Atlanta's 2009 1st
Esposito
Phillie's 2010 3rd

Ottawa gets Carter to replace Spezza and some pieces for the future. Ottawa gains 2million in cap space.

To Phillie
Lehtonen
Kelly

Phillie gets the goalie they need and a PK specialist who can fill the void on the forward ranks. Allowing Briere to center the 1st line and Richards to center the 2. Phillie also doesn't have to give up JVR to get Lehtonen.
............no we just give up ****ing Jeff Carter.......

Hell why don't we just skip you and trade Carter to Atlanta for everything you get for Spezza + more because Carter's more valuable?

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:16 AM
  #62
The Pucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
Then basically Lupul + 1st should get us around 4th overall...and he certainly won't.


Lupul: 79 GP - 25 G - 25 A - 50 P - 0.63 PPG - 0.32 GPG
Staal: 82 GP - 22 G - 27 A - 49 P - 0.60 PPG - 0.27 GPG
Bergeron: 64 GP - 8 G - 31 A - 39 P - 0.61 PPG - 0.13 GPG

Lupul may have looked lazy this year, but he played on a line with puck hogs in Carter and Hartnell. That's hardly the perfect environment for a sniper. Despite that he still managed 50 points.

I'm not defending his contract, but:

Bergeron: $4.75m
Lupul: $4.25m
Staal: $4.00m

Everyone is clearly going to claim that Bergeron and Staal are obviously more valuable...why? Well likely because both have been around that 70 point block years ago. Staal got 68 in his rookie season, and Bergeron got 73 and 70 before getting injured.

The case on Bergeron is that he got a concussion and his points dropped off drastically, but he's apparently still a very good third line center on the Bruins who plays both ways. Staal's claim to fame is that he's on the third line focusing on defense and physicality so he can't possibly put up as many points as other players.

Lupul is playing on the Flyers top line, usually against other teams' top lines, with two linemates who aren't exactly going to do him any favors. And people say that Lupul is someone carried by his teammates?

Besides if you want to claim that Bergeron was injured why can't you say that about Lupul last year? He was injured most of this season and is coming back. His wasn't a concussion so I have to say he has at least as much a chance of getting back to his pre-injury form as Bergeron.

Lupul 06-07: 50 GP - 20 G - 26 A - 46 P - 0.82 PPG - 0.40 GPG

That's when he was playing with Richards on pace for 33~ goals and 67~ points.
This is an excellent example of why stats do not prove the value of players.

There are 2 main differances between the players you mentions, the 1st, age, the 2nd the game on the ice.

Staal has never had a 68 point NHL season, that was his last season in junior.

Jordan Staal still has not had his 21st birthday, yet he has 3 seasons in the NHL 2 of which he has scored 20 plus goals despite seldom beeing put in an offensive situation. The reason you hear his name in so many rumors is he is the kind of player every team going for a cup wants. He is a big, very young center who already has an acomplished defensive game and a tonne of playoff experience. His offensive upside is much higher than he has shown mainly for 2 reasons, Crosby and Malkin. He doesnt get the quality offensive icetime.

Patrice Bergeron is only 23 years old despite the length of time he has been in the NHL. When it comes to pure skill he is far and away the class of the 3 players mentioned. If it was not for his concussion problems there is no way he is in this conversation, rather we are talking about whether he or Savard should be the 1st line center in Boston.

Joffrey Lupul is 25, going to be 26 before the next season starts. He has already been on 3 NHL teams and is in the thick of the rumors to be heading for this 4th. Ask fans of Edmonton if they want him back? He has skill, but he also has cemented his reputation as being lazy. Can he shake that, maybe, but so far he has show no indication of it. You claim that being on Phillys 1st line hurt him, thats ironic, usually being on a line that scores 100 goals would build your value. That alone says something when you look at it. He has been a constant underachiever.

Based on trade values, Lupul has the least of the 3 players mentioned by far.

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:18 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
............no we just give up ****ing Jeff Carter.......

Hell why don't we just skip you and trade Carter to Atlanta for everything you get for Spezza + more because Carter's more valuable?

Yeah, your right on this one, a serious overvale on Spezza, undervalue on Carter, not a good deal for anybody except Ottawa.

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:26 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
To Boston
4th overall

To Atlanta
Bergeron
2009 1st round pick (25th overall)

If people say that this is not enough value from the Bruins, then I will go back to ignoring the trade rumor and free agent talk section of hfboards.

This deal makes a lot of sense for Atlanta because it gives them more scoring and toughness, and a decent 1-2 punch at center with Little and Bergeron. The only way it does not make sense for Atlanta is if they are in complete rebuilding mode and hoping to be a bottom 3 team next year. I don't think that is the case, however.

I'm not sure this works for Boston. If they were to trade Bergeron, it would make more sense for them to trade him in the 7-10 range and target Kulikov (Boston is always after a puck moving defenseman). If they traded for a pick in this range, they could probably keep their first.
Bergeron is too much of an injury risk for Atlanta to send away a future cornerstone for.

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:30 AM
  #65
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Bergeron is too much of an injury risk for Atlanta to send away a future cornerstone for.
Thats pretty much the whole story right there, otherwise they would be stiching his name on a jersey as we speak. Of course if Bergeron didnt have the injury questions, he wouldnt be offered either, a lose-lose for both sides.

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:33 AM
  #66
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Callahan, Girardi and the 19th for the 4th pick.

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:33 AM
  #67
Chandrashekhar Limit
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4th + mid porpect

for

Lecavalier


4th

for

toronto 7th + Kuemin

please be kind on the critisism

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:38 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
Based on trade values, Lupul has the least of the 3 players mentioned by far.
That wasn't the point. Lupul has less value than Staal or Bergeron but the proposal was for Bergeron + 1st for 4th overall.

ATL wouldn't even come close to considering that from Philly so why would they take a risk on Bergeron?

Bergeron costs $4.75m and though he's young you can sit there and hope his production will increase there still leaves the obvious possibility that he will never recover his production and you could be stuck with a solid two-way forward with 40 or so points a year.

Like Lupul, if Bergeron is moved this offseason it will be for cap reasons so I really don't understand the double standard. While Lupul certainly doesn't have much value there are obviously arguments you could make as to why he'd be at least as valuable on the open market as Bergeron.

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:41 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
You claim that being on Phillys 1st line hurt him, thats ironic, usually being on a line that scores 100 goals would build your value. That alone says something when you look at it. He has been a constant underachiever.

Based on trade values, Lupul has the least of the 3 players mentioned by far.
Not really. Being on a first line is usually means getting more minutes than he got. That is due to Philly's depth at forward and the ridiculous amount of time they spent on the PK. He was a 50 point player in 15 minutes a game, as a shooter on a line with two other guys who shoot first. Towards the end of the year there was a visible shift in the way he played. He stopped waiting to be fed and actually asserted himself to create his own opportunities, and he looked really sharp and not nearly the lazy player he is made out to be. I think he is maturing into the type of forward who can play with anyone, not just finish plays which is a valuable skill.

Is Lupul nailing your old girlfriend from high school or something? You seem intent to go into every thread and sell people on his worthlessness.

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:45 AM
  #70
Chapin Landvogt
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To TOR:
4th overall

To ATL:
Kaberle and Stajan

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Old
05-24-2009, 11:56 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
To TOR:
4th overall

To ATL:
Kaberle and Stajan
I'd do that. DW has said that he's open to trading out of the draft entirely. I could see my way to adding a second round pick to that package if necessary.

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Old
05-24-2009, 12:06 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
To TOR:
4th overall

To ATL:
Kaberle and Stajan
atlanta says no to this, and pretty much everything else in this thread

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Old
05-24-2009, 12:09 PM
  #73
The Pucks
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post

Is Lupul nailing your old girlfriend from high school or something? You seem intent to go into every thread and sell people on his worthlessness.

Where have I said anything about Lupul which isnt true? I dont have a problem with Lupul, I have a problem with a segment of fans who keep trying to pimp him up to be more than he is.

Lupul last year at 2.3 million had solid trade value, Lupul at 4.25 million has little trade value. To compare him with a Jordan Staal is just not right, Bergeron because of the injury can be in a similar catagory, and that catagory is "very hard to trade"

Frankly your comment is uncalled for. By the way, my old girlfreinds from highschool are almost old enough to now be Lupuls mother. That wouldnt look too good on him now would it.


Last edited by The Pucks: 05-24-2009 at 12:17 PM.
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Old
05-24-2009, 12:30 PM
  #74
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
Frankly your comment is uncalled for. By the way, my old girlfreinds from highschool are almost old enough to now be Lupuls mother. That wouldnt look too good on him now would it.
Were your post in this thread about Lupul your only post, or one of few, then my comment might be uncalled for. But the dogged determination with which you pursue the denouncement of his trade value is comical at best, a nuisance at worst.

Also, it would depend if your girlfriends from high school are still hot.

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Old
05-24-2009, 12:43 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Were your post in this thread about Lupul your only post, or one of few, then my comment might be uncalled for. But the dogged determination with which you pursue the denouncement of his trade value is comical at best, a nuisance at worst.

Also, it would depend if your girlfriends from high school are still hot.
And I can counter that with the amount of times this board had been inundated with Lupul proposals is beyond ridiculas. Virtually every thread which a goaile, dman or forward of any value is proposed, Lupul, Jones or Briere get brought up by the same people then they swarm the thread turning it into a debacle.

If I choose to aproach these threads that is up to me, if you choose to read them that is up to you.

By the way, I cant tell you if they are still hot, my wife keeps me away.

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