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Old
05-26-2009, 12:45 AM
  #1
lancer247
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Phi-Clb

PHI - lupul ($4.25MM) and Carle ($3.4MM) = $7.65MM

CLB - commodore ($3.75MM) and torres ($2.25MM) = $6MM

flyers get a big physical dman they need and a grinder that has trouble staying healthy and scoring but would play a nice role on an energy line.

jackets get a young 25+ goal scorer to improve their offensive depth and a 24 y/o puck carrying dman that blocks a lot of shots to compliment their big physical d.

jackets take on some more salary but get players with much higher ceilings.
flyers get players to fill specific roles while freeing up minutes for players like giroux, sbisa, and JVR.

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05-26-2009, 12:52 AM
  #2
ELab2
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hmm... not too bad. But the slight decrease in cap hit isn't really worth the hit in talent and upside considering where the cap will be and where the Flyers are at. If they could move Briere or another high salary this would make more sense but isolated I don't think I would do it.

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05-26-2009, 12:57 AM
  #3
The Puck
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Oh c'mon!

Lupul > Torres
Carle > Commodore

So what if Torres and Commodore "fill specific roles"? Does that mean Lupul and Carle don't have roles on Philly or something?

There's a reason why Lupul and Carle have "much higher celings" ... it's because they're much better.

"Freeing up minutes" doesn't mean giving guys away.

Philly has plenty of LW's, and big oafs like Commodore are a dime a dozen.

The 1.65M cap saving doesn't make up the difference.

The Flyers are taking a jumbo jet up the bum on this one.

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Old
05-26-2009, 01:09 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
The Flyers are taking a jumbo jet up the bum on this one.
That about sums it up.

The Flyers aren't about to give up assets for crap when we don't have to. We'd like to move certain pieces because they don't fit well with what we already have.

Dropping them for far less value would mean we'd be clearing up a large chunk of cap space. $1.65m isn't exactly a large amount of cap space.

It could make sense in the fact that their contracts are for 1-2 years so we can re-sign other players, but that's not entirely the case. Commodore is signed to a longer deal at a higher cap hit than Carle, and while Torres only has one more year at $2.25m, I'd rather have Lupul for 4 more years at $2m a year more with much more production even if he never reaches his full potential.

Philly doesn't do this.

We might have interest in RJ Umberger though.

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Old
05-26-2009, 11:13 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
PHI - lupul ($4.25MM) and Carle ($3.4MM) = $7.65MM

CLB - commodore ($3.75MM) and torres ($2.25MM) = $6MM

flyers get a big physical dman they need and a grinder that has trouble staying healthy and scoring but would play a nice role on an energy line.

jackets get a young 25+ goal scorer to improve their offensive depth and a 24 y/o puck carrying dman that blocks a lot of shots to compliment their big physical d.

jackets take on some more salary but get players with much higher ceilings.
flyers get players to fill specific roles while freeing up minutes for players like giroux, sbisa, and JVR.
I would like to see Carle with the CBJ but there is no need for Lupul in Columbus. I also don't think you'll see Commodore going anywhere. He had a horrible playoff in my opinion but had an outstanding regular season. Torres has only 1 year left and really picked up his play the last 1/4 of the season (coming off major surgery). I could see him moved to a team, like philly?, that wants a 1 year stop gap and some future cap relief while letting their younger players develop.

I'm not sure a Torres + ?? for Carle coudl be worked out but may be a good fit for both teams.

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Old
05-26-2009, 12:15 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
I would like to see Carle with the CBJ but there is no need for Lupul in Columbus. I also don't think you'll see Commodore going anywhere. He had a horrible playoff in my opinion but had an outstanding regular season. Torres has only 1 year left and really picked up his play the last 1/4 of the season (coming off major surgery). I could see him moved to a team, like philly?, that wants a 1 year stop gap and some future cap relief while letting their younger players develop.

I'm not sure a Torres + ?? for Carle coudl be worked out but may be a good fit for both teams.
flyers are looking to add a physical defensive presence to their blueline, which is the point of trying to acquire commodore. without that player, the main aim of the proposal is lost.

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Old
05-26-2009, 01:00 PM
  #7
lancer247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
Lupul > Torres
Carle > Commodore

So what if Torres and Commodore "fill specific roles"? Does that mean Lupul and Carle don't have roles on Philly or something?

There's a reason why Lupul and Carle have "much higher celings" ... it's because they're much better.

"Freeing up minutes" doesn't mean giving guys away.

Philly has plenty of LW's, and big oafs like Commodore are a dime a dozen.

The 1.65M cap saving doesn't make up the difference.

The Flyers are taking a jumbo jet up the bum on this one.
in my defense it was late and i also was not trying to look like a homer flyers fan.

would replacing torres with vermette ($2.75MM) + a 2nd or 3rd make it a closer deal?


Last edited by lancer247: 05-26-2009 at 01:05 PM.
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Old
05-26-2009, 01:04 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
flyers are looking to add a physical defensive presence to their blueline, which is the point of trying to acquire commodore. without that player, the main aim of the proposal is lost.
yeah, adding another forward and subtracting a dman wouldn't make sense unless the flyers were losing a lot of salary.

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Old
05-26-2009, 01:21 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
in my defense it was late and i also was not trying to look like a homer flyers fan.

would replacing torres with vermette ($2.75MM) + a 2nd or 3rd make it a closer deal?
Howson's not going to trade Vermette, I don't think.

Is people's issue with the original deal the salary or the players? What about Gagne coming the other way instead of Lupul. Yeah, it's a shorter contract and CBJ would likely have to add a prospect/pick, but just wondering. What about Marc Methot instead of Commodore? He's younger and presumably (RFA) cheaper.

Meh - just tossing some stuff out there.

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Old
05-26-2009, 01:37 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
Howson's not going to trade Vermette, I don't think.

Is people's issue with the original deal the salary or the players? What about Gagne coming the other way instead of Lupul. Yeah, it's a shorter contract and CBJ would likely have to add a prospect/pick, but just wondering. What about Marc Methot instead of Commodore? He's younger and presumably (RFA) cheaper.

Meh - just tossing some stuff out there.
Gagne is certainly a no-go in this type of deal if we're not even willing to give up Lupul in this kind of horrific downgrade. I can't think of any prospects that might incline us to put Gagne in this deal, and a 1st rounder is not enough.

Methot is an option, but I don't know really anything about him. I assume he's not worth all that much if that's the case, but definitely explain what he brings to the table for me.

What the Flyers need:

Goaltending now and future options

To change top six wingers (Briere, Lupul) into cheaper serviceable third liners

To upgrade Carle defensively to either a young physical talent that's better right now or a veteran who is better right now on a short term contract while our deep prospect pool on the blueline becomes NHL ready


Last edited by twenty2: 05-26-2009 at 01:46 PM.
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Old
05-26-2009, 01:43 PM
  #11
lancer247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
Howson's not going to trade Vermette, I don't think.

Is people's issue with the original deal the salary or the players? What about Gagne coming the other way instead of Lupul. Yeah, it's a shorter contract and CBJ would likely have to add a prospect/pick, but just wondering. What about Marc Methot instead of Commodore? He's younger and presumably (RFA) cheaper.

Meh - just tossing some stuff out there.
i thought CLB was really high on Methot so i thought that would get shot down really quick...i was originally thinking what would it take to get klesla but thought his contract was too friendly for the production you get from him (whe healthy).

i think although the flyers are a young team and still have some nice prospects in the system their focus may be looking to win now and commodore seems like more of a known commodity.

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Old
05-26-2009, 01:45 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
Howson's not going to trade Vermette, I don't think.

Is people's issue with the original deal the salary or the players? What about Gagne coming the other way instead of Lupul. Yeah, it's a shorter contract and CBJ would likely have to add a prospect/pick, but just wondering. What about Marc Methot instead of Commodore? He's younger and presumably (RFA) cheaper.

Meh - just tossing some stuff out there.
Simon Gagne has way more value in a trade then a couple of support players who may or may not be all that great to begin with, and a pick or prospect. If Gagne would be moved, a promising young player as well as a good prospect would be your starting point... more like Hejda +

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Old
05-26-2009, 01:48 PM
  #13
lancer247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
Howson's not going to trade Vermette, I don't think.

Is people's issue with the original deal the salary or the players? What about Gagne coming the other way instead of Lupul. Yeah, it's a shorter contract and CBJ would likely have to add a prospect/pick, but just wondering. What about Marc Methot instead of Commodore? He's younger and presumably (RFA) cheaper.

Meh - just tossing some stuff out there.
good question.

POVs are so far ranging on these boards it's tough to gauge.
i see proposals like "lupul, parent and ..." for "lehtenon" but people scuff at "lupul & carle" for commodore +...i would rather see flyers resign biron and add a known commodity like commodre then trade assets for an inconsistent goalie plus still have to extend him.

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Old
05-26-2009, 02:00 PM
  #14
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Yeah, this is just bad.

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Old
05-26-2009, 02:06 PM
  #15
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Why is it that EVERY trade suggested with Philly in it has Carle and Lupul leaving?

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Old
05-26-2009, 02:09 PM
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Why is it that EVERY trade suggested with Philly in it has Carle and Lupul leaving?

I hope we keep Carle, personally.

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Old
05-26-2009, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Th4thurt View Post
Why is it that EVERY trade suggested with Philly in it has Carle and Lupul leaving?
Lupul is due a pay raise next season to 4.25 mil for 4 years. Barring him hitting the 30g/65+point mark next season he will likely be overpaid by a little. Many are syaing his contract is atrocious but that's just not true. He got paid a little more because it was a 4 year deal and he's giving up either 2 or 3 years of UFA years by signing so long. Also, the concept of deals like this is that they are slightly over paid at the beginning but a bargin by the end of it. However, if the cap drops to below 50 mil then he may be over paid for it's full length (also varies based upon whenter he continues to improve as he has each of the last 3 of his he plateaus or regresses). If Lupul really takes off and becomre a 40/90 player (very unlikely I think but it COULD happen) then he'll be a HUGE bargin.

Carle is a young dman who will continue to get better defensively. He's show good offensive abilities but questionable defensive ones at times. Th team needs to be patient with him and just let him improve with time and experience. Everyone knows that dmen take longer to develop and he's more of an offensive dman than a defensive one. remember he just turned 24 years old, that's till retty young and you really shouldn't be expecting an offensive dman to be stellar in his own zone at that age. I think people expected to much from him and feel he's not worht his 3.4 mil contract. Maybe he really should be at arounf 3.0 instead of 3.4 mil but if a team is patient with him he'll be a very good 2nd pairing dman for them for many years.

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Old
05-26-2009, 02:57 PM
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I don't remember all of the details but Commodore's contract has some sort of limited NTC for the first few years.

Found a link... http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph..._his_contract/
Quote:
In Columbus, he hopes to finally live up to his title as a stay-at-home defenseman. The contract Commodore signed—$18.75 million over five seasons—would seem to indicate as much. The deal’s first two years include a no-trade clause.
To back up DSLs tossing Methot's name in the mix... the problem Columbus has is that it has too many d-men with the same basic skill set: Hejda, Commodore, Methot, Klesla, and Tyutin to some extent can all be considered stay-at-home defensemen (I forgot about Tollefsen (sp?) as well).

Russell is the only offensive d-man. We need someone who is capable of being a PP QB or has an accurate cannon from the point. None of the d-men listed do that reliably at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one of them get moved this summer - I just don't know which one.


Last edited by cbjgirl: 05-26-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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Old
05-26-2009, 03:34 PM
  #19
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I just don't see it. Lupul is not the kind of player who will succeed under Ken Hitchcock, and in all likelihood they will explore moving Randy Jones before Matt Carle since Jones will be a UFA next summer and will likely test the market.

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Old
05-26-2009, 03:43 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Simon Gagne has way more value in a trade then a couple of support players who may or may not be all that great to begin with, and a pick or prospect. If Gagne would be moved, a promising young player as well as a good prospect would be your starting point... more like Hejda +
I realize that - I was going for the higher-salary angle. Jackets won't likely get into the Briere stratosphere as far as salary goes, though, so stopped at Simon. Just askin'.

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Old
05-26-2009, 04:10 PM
  #21
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I would rather see:
Lupul
Jones

4

Torres
OKT
2nd round pick 2010

The Flyers would lose about 4.75 million in cap and get a tough young physical Dman 2 years from UFA.

Timonen Coburn
Carle Parent
Sbisa OKT

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Old
05-26-2009, 05:04 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassé View Post
I realize that - I was going for the higher-salary angle. Jackets won't likely get into the Briere stratosphere as far as salary goes, though, so stopped at Simon. Just askin'.
I see what you are saying, i think moving Gagne is extremely unlikely, but after Lupul he is the next forward i would move if the Flyers decided they wanted to spend that 5 million on the blueline or in net. That said, the discussion on a return changes significantly when we bring Gagne into the mix

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Old
05-26-2009, 05:06 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
I see what you are saying, i think moving Gagne is extremely unlikely, but after Lupul he is the next forward i would move if the Flyers decided they wanted to spend that 5 million on the blueline or in net. That said, the discussion on a return changes significantly when we bring Gagne into the mix
key words are bolded above for importance

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Old
05-26-2009, 06:48 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by cbjgirl View Post
I don't remember all of the details but Commodore's contract has some sort of limited NTC for the first few years.

Found a link... http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph..._his_contract/


To back up DSLs tossing Methot's name in the mix... the problem Columbus has is that it has too many d-men with the same basic skill set: Hejda, Commodore, Methot, Klesla, and Tyutin to some extent can all be considered stay-at-home defensemen (I forgot about Tollefsen (sp?) as well).

Russell is the only offensive d-man. We need someone who is capable of being a PP QB or has an accurate cannon from the point. None of the d-men listed do that reliably at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one of them get moved this summer - I just don't know which one.

the flyers are in the same boat with their dmen as far as having too many of similar skill set...people ask why lupul and carle are in every trade proposal it's not because they aren't wanted by flyers fans but that the flyers have a plethora of forwards and dmen of similar size and skill set...carle and lupul are most likely to be traded as opposed to guys like gagne, giroux, hartnell or coburn, parent, kimo.

i thought CLB was the polar opposite of flyers as far as skill set so i thought they would make good trading partners.

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Old
05-26-2009, 07:20 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
in my defense it was late and i also was not trying to look like a homer flyers fan.

would replacing torres with vermette ($2.75MM) + a 2nd or 3rd make it a closer deal?
Throw in Vermette and a 2nd and Philly destroy the Jackets on this deal. I'd rather Vermette over Lupul, and Commodore is an absolute beast.

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