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Old
05-26-2009, 05:39 PM
  #26
The Fear Boners
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Originally Posted by ViD View Post
Some people do not truly understand who Nikita Filatov is and how good he is. But that's all right, there's no hype around him.

Same way, some people do not notice how Paul Ranger is regressing. However, this could be because of the injuries. Or because our team just plain sucks right now. Just take a look at Meszaros.

I understand when Columbus fans say they dont want this trade, but fellow Bolts fans, come on, we can find a replacement for Ranger on UFA market, but a prospect like Filatov. No.



his average time on the ice was about 5 minutes. Still, he managed to score 4 goals and have a + rating playing alongside with a great playmaker, Mike Peca.

His AHL numbers are solid considering that he was the youngest player in the league and had to play with sponsor equipment for the significant part of the season.

He dominated every WJC and WJC U18 he participated.

His numbers in his Russian junior team(CSKA-2) were insane.

Find a weak spot.
Size. But thats not the point.

I do take notice to your observation about Ranger "regressing" though, in what manner? Do you have any statistics/analysis to back this up?

Also, if the BJ's came to me and asked for Ranger for Filatov... you're out of your ****ing mind if you say no.

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05-26-2009, 05:54 PM
  #27
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He's not a saviour for our blue line. 2+11 in 42 games.
Don't think anyone is saying Ranger is the saviour for the blue line, but considering defense is the biggest hole on the team right now it doesn't make sense to trade one of the better performers off. You obviously don't like him, but he's one of the best on the blueline right now along with Meszaros.

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Krajicek, Smaby, Hedman, Murphy, Welch, Lashoff, possibly a couple of UFA D-men. We should do fine.
LOL wat? That blueline is awful. Welch should be in Norfolk, I wouldn't mind Kraijick not being qualified, Murphy is a PP specialist, Lashoff is still a bit of an unknown, Hedman hasn't played a shift in the NHL yet. That's not a blueline you can win with if you want to be a playoff team. Not that Ranger makes it great, but a few UFA defenseman aren't going to make it great either. This team has a budget and Ranger for the minutes he plays is a bargain. Sure you can find a blueliner that's just as good as Ranger or slightly better, but it's going to cost twice or three times as much. In a cap world and being a small market franchise, what's the point? The problem with Ranger is he plays too many minutes. He's being asked to play first pairing minutes (25-28) when he should be playing second pairing minutes (21-24). He's not even 25 yet, makes less than a million a year, and still developing his game. If Lawton is smart, he'll hang on to him.

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05-26-2009, 05:59 PM
  #28
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I do take notice to your observation about Ranger "regressing" though, in what manner? Do you have any statistics/analysis to back this up?
Well, people are saying that he is a blue line guru. But how did he manage to score only 2 goals in 42 games and 69 shots? He was averaging more than 2 minutes in PP a game and ended up with 0 goals. The most funny thing he is yet to score a power play goal in 4 seasons.

Enough for now?

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05-26-2009, 06:31 PM
  #29
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Filatov is really the future, I see at least an 80 Points per season player!!!

I would do this trade if I was Tampa....In fact I think that Filatov will have more success than Tavares in the NHL!!!

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05-26-2009, 06:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Neely06 View Post
What? I'm not going to bag on Filatov..he's just a prospect so none of us really have a clue how he is going to turn out. But sponsor equipment?
AHL players have to use Reebok (?) sticks, except for like 3 exceptions. the games Filatov got to use his own stuff he did really well. I believe mackenzie, york and macdonald got the exceptions.

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05-26-2009, 06:59 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ViD View Post
Well, people are saying that he is a blue line guru. But how did he manage to score only 2 goals in 42 games and 69 shots? He was averaging more than 2 minutes in PP a game and ended up with 0 goals. The most funny thing he is yet to score a power play goal in 4 seasons.

Enough for now?

Where did you find this information? Not saying it is wrong, just wondering where you got it from, as I cant seem to find that.

And for the talk of the PP, he wasnt getting first unit time, the first unit was clicking well, but the second unit, it is never going to be anywhere near as good, especially once Recchi was gone. Also Ranger isnt a goalscorer, sure 2 goals is an off year, but he scored 5 PP point in 42 games, compared to last season when he scored 5 PP points, but in 72 games. So how is that regression? I was mored worried about Mez, who is more of a blueline goalscorer, 2 goals??

So if you want to talk about regression in the dmen this season the conversation begins and ends with Meszaros, I mean come on highly touted and then gives us that in terms of production.... of course I am not worried, and am merely yanking your chain. The whole team had an off year thanks to the biggest piece of crap to ever set foot in Tampa, Melrose. Meszaros, Ranger every dman this year was having a poor year (except Smaby for some odd reason...beast in the last 20 or so games).

Meszaros-Ranger
Lashoff-Smaby
Lundin-Hedman
Murphy

I mean that is without any offseason signings and just resigning the expected, that is young and full of potential, but it is lacking in experience and probably every one of those dmen should be knocked down a spot. So you take Ranger out and it becomes a mess.

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05-26-2009, 07:08 PM
  #32
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Where did you find this information? Not saying it is wrong, just wondering where you got it from, as I cant seem to find that.
NHL.com. Under stats you can find just about anything there including time on ice for players.

I don't think stats are the best way to judge Ranger. He didn't put up big numbers in junior, heck in the year he was drafted he didn't score a goal. He cracked 40 points in his fourth year with Oshawa. If he can put up 30-35 points that's fine. He shouldn't and will never be a PP QB on a top PP unit. Ideally he's on a 2nd PP unit. I'm more concerned with his game in his own end and his puck moving ability. If he does well in those two areas, offensive contributions are a nice bonus. I don't expect him to be putting up Boyle numbers, nor do I judge defensemen solely by their stats.

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05-26-2009, 07:24 PM
  #33
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Where did you find this information? Not saying it is wrong, just wondering where you got it from, as I cant seem to find that.
NHL.com -> stats -> individuals -> time on ice

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And for the talk of the PP, he wasnt getting first unit time, the first unit was clicking well, but the second unit, it is never going to be anywhere near as good, especially once Recchi was gone. Also Ranger isnt a goalscorer, sure 2 goals is an off year, but he scored 5 PP point in 42 games, compared to last season when he scored 5 PP points, but in 72 games. So how is that regression? I was mored worried about Mez, who is more of a blueline goalscorer, 2 goals??
I was not even mentioning the last season because we had Boyle and Kuba. Ranger was averaging a minute in PP a game, so his stats arent relevant. This season we dont have Boyle and Kuba. Ranger and Meszaros were supposed to be the main PP guys, but..

This is about Ranger here, not about Meszaros, I can say a lot about him, in fact, I have said a lot about him on the Bolts board. His performance was even worse.

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Meszaros-Ranger
Lashoff-Smaby
Lundin-Hedman
Murphy
Well, just imagine if we miraculously signed Bouwmeester or we got back Kuba, or signed Komisarek. Many possibilities. And then we have 2 killer offensive lines. Prospal-Vinny-Marty, Filatov-Stamkos-Malone. This would be something.

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Old
05-26-2009, 07:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
NHL.com. Under stats you can find just about anything there including time on ice for players.

I don't think stats are the best way to judge Ranger. He didn't put up big numbers in junior, heck in the year he was drafted he didn't score a goal. He cracked 40 points in his fourth year with Oshawa. If he can put up 30-35 points that's fine. He shouldn't and will never be a PP QB on a top PP unit. Ideally he's on a 2nd PP unit. I'm more concerned with his game in his own end and his puck moving ability. If he does well in those two areas, offensive contributions are a nice bonus. I don't expect him to be putting up Boyle numbers, nor do I judge defensemen solely by their stats.
Agreed, Ranger is much more important with his first pass, PK work, 2nd PPQB combined. He doesnt standout really in many areas. But instead the package of smarts, speed and general play. And hopefully that will keep his contract cost down when he renews I still dont know how he resigned for that little.

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05-26-2009, 07:32 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ViD View Post
NHL.com -> stats -> individuals -> time on ice



I was not even mentioning the last season because we had Boyle and Kuba. Ranger was averaging a minute in PP a game, so his stats arent relevant. This season we dont have Boyle and Kuba. Ranger and Meszaros were supposed to be the main PP guys, but..

This is about Ranger here, not about Meszaros, I can say a lot about him, in fact, I have said a lot about him on the Bolts board. His performance was even worse.



Well, just imagine if we miraculously signed Bouwmeester or we got back Kuba, or signed Komisarek. Many possibilities. And then we have 2 killer offensive lines. Prospal-Vinny-Marty, Filatov-Stamkos-Malone. This would be something.
Thanks

I never thought of Ranger as being the PPQB. I thought thats what Meszaros would be, and I thought a forward would go on the point as well. And then on the 2nd unit I was thinking maybe Ranger and I dont know Stammer (as correct me if I am wrong but he played PPQB in juniors?).

I would say of the two Meszaros is much more likely of the 2 to be moved, if only because Ranger is signed to an absolute bargain contract, for similar standard of play.

You know the key word for me in your whole post? Miraculously, thats saying it, lets talk realistically here, we arent going to be signing big name UFA dmen. Maybe a Mara or something, but Bouwmeesters and Komisareks will be out of our price range (thank God for that, teams are gonna pay up big for those 2, they wont be Redden style bad, but still pretty crappy contracts I reckon). So I am going with what I know, we have an internal salary budget, of about $45 million, trading Ranger and signing a UFA makes that even more likely that Vinny HAS to be moved purely for financial causes.

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Old
05-26-2009, 07:47 PM
  #36
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Filatov is the top NHL-drafted prospect in the world. He's put of 1.5-2 ppg at every level of junior hockey and he put up 32 pts in 39 gms as the youngest player in the AHL, at 6', 175 pounds nonetheless. Why would any team ever want to trade someone like that before they've even had a chance to show what they can do as an adult? Especially for a young, offensively ineffective defenseman on the arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL.

Consider that Scott Howson offered the 6th(Filatov) for Marleau straight up. Filatov has since improved his status over the course of the 2008-09 season, so nothing less than that would get him away from Columbus.

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05-26-2009, 07:53 PM
  #37
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LOL wat? That blueline is awful. Welch should be in Norfolk, I wouldn't mind Kraijick not being qualified, Murphy is a PP specialist, Lashoff is still a bit of an unknown, Hedman hasn't played a shift in the NHL yet. That's not a blueline you can win with if you want to be a playoff team. Not that Ranger makes it great, but a few UFA defenseman aren't going to make it great either. This team has a budget and Ranger for the minutes he plays is a bargain. Sure you can find a blueliner that's just as good as Ranger or slightly better, but it's going to cost twice or three times as much. In a cap world and being a small market franchise, what's the point? The problem with Ranger is he plays too many minutes. He's being asked to play first pairing minutes (25-28) when he should be playing second pairing minutes (21-24). He's not even 25 yet, makes less than a million a year, and still developing his game. If Lawton is smart, he'll hang on to him.
I agree.

Ranger is cheap and one of the best defensemen we have. I know Vid loves Filatov, but this trade makes more of a hole on the defense than is does fill one on offense. One thing Lawton wants to do is create a foundation. Ranger, even though he is only 24, Paul has been here longer than any other Lightning player, other than St. Louis, Lecavalier, Craig, and Prospal. He is also one of the few players on the team that have been drafted by the bolts. He's a leader on the defense and a guy you want to keep here for years to come.

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Old
05-26-2009, 07:53 PM
  #38
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Filatov is the top NHL-drafted prospect in the world. He's put of 1.5-2 ppg at every level of junior hockey and he put up 32 pts in 39 gms as the youngest player in the AHL, at 6', 175 pounds nonetheless. Why would any team ever want to trade someone like that before they've even had a chance to show what they can do as an adult? Especially for a young, offensively ineffective defenseman on the arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL.

Consider that Scott Howson offered the 6th(Filatov) for Marleau straight up. Filatov has since improved his status over the course of the 2008-09 season, so nothing less than that would get him away from Columbus.

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05-26-2009, 07:56 PM
  #39
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Why would any team ever want to trade someone like that before they've even had a chance to show what they can do as an adult? Especially for a young, offensively ineffective defenseman on the arguably the worst defensive team in the NHL.
1. Contract
2. Age
3. Experience at his age
4. In my proposal, there's also a really good prospect, Dana Tyrell, and a conditional pick.

Another point is that CBJ already have Nash, Huselius, Vermette, Voracek, Brassard, Umberger. Where do you see Filatov now? 3-4 checking line? Nice.

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05-26-2009, 08:01 PM
  #40
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Ranger is cheap and one of the best defensemen we have.
Cheap. Yes, for one more year. Then he will ask for 3+ mln. Yes, he is one of the best dman we have, but let's just imagine that we drafted Hedman and signed a quality UFA dman. Wouldnt you wanna split the ways with Ranger now?

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05-26-2009, 08:29 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ViD View Post
1. Contract
2. Age
3. Experience at his age
4. In my proposal, there's also a really good prospect, Dana Tyrell, and a conditional pick.

Another point is that CBJ already have Nash, Huselius, Vermette, Voracek, Brassard, Umberger. Where do you see Filatov now? 3-4 checking line? Nice.
Contract? When GMs look to dump salary, high-potential 19 year old players with 3 entry-level-contract years left are the last place they would look. The only way someone of his caliber is traded is if he's part of a package for legitimate star player.

As for 2. and 3., when a team wants to gain age and experience, they wouldn't trade their best prospect unless they are just terrible at their job.

Tyrell is a good prospect and Ranger was a decent young Dman on a bad team. However, in reality, those two and 3rd rounder don't get you a player in the Filatov, Doughty, Bogosian, Stamkos, Myers talent range.

As for where he fits, Hitchcock said his goal is to run 4 balanced lines next year. Umberger, Voracek, Vermette and Nash are all very good defensively and can check well. Plug Filatov in with any of those guys and he'll be just fine. Plus, he has shown very good defensive awareness already, blocking a couple heavy slap shots. To answer your question, he'll probably be a 2nd/3rd line sniper, working his was into the top 6 as the year goes on.

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05-26-2009, 08:31 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ViD View Post
Cheap. Yes, for one more year. Then he will ask for 3+ mln. Yes, he is one of the best dman we have, but let's just imagine that we drafted Hedman and signed a quality UFA dman. Wouldnt you wanna split the ways with Ranger now?
nope. Hedman may not be good for some time. Who knows how long it will take for him to develop and fulfill his potential. Also name a UFA defensmen who's better than Ranger we can sign cheap. We still have to sign Karsums, Lashoff, Smaby, Ramo, and others. Also I don't think Ranger will ask for that much.

In this trade, do the Lightning get potentially the best player in the deal. Yes, but that doesn't matter if our D is going to stink for a couple years anyway and we are stuck going nowhere. The way I see it, our top 6 is fine. We have Vinny and Marty, and Stammer is going to get better. Prospal and Malone are also fine players. After our top two lines, the scoring falls off to nothing. We don't need a dominating top 6, we just need more scoring help throughout our team so all the goals aren't coming from 5 people. Filatov is going to be a great player, but we are not in a situation where we can lose a good defender and still expect to get better. If we were a little more assured about Lashoff or we knew Hedman (if we even draft him) could jump in and be this years Doughty, than yes you make this trade. Also who knows what Tyrell will turn into?

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05-26-2009, 08:49 PM
  #43
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Well, people are saying that he is a blue line guru. But how did he manage to score only 2 goals in 42 games and 69 shots? He was averaging more than 2 minutes in PP a game and ended up with 0 goals. The most funny thing he is yet to score a power play goal in 4 seasons.

Enough for now?
WITH A TORN LABRUM. AGAIN. The guy wasn't even getting steady/consistent shifts and was constantly moved around in the pairings with someone who was supposed to be more physical (see: taking hits and being out of position) because he was unable to actually play the body in a reasonable manner.

For what he brings to the table vs. what he costs, you should be giving Meszaros ****, not Ranger.

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05-26-2009, 08:51 PM
  #44
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both teams are trading the wrong assets....cbj needs scoring and is trading their best offensive prospect and tampa bay needs defense and is trading a top 2 pairing dman

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05-26-2009, 08:52 PM
  #45
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Cheap. Yes, for one more year. Then he will ask for 3+ mln. Yes, he is one of the best dman we have, but let's just imagine that we drafted Hedman and signed a quality UFA dman. Wouldnt you wanna split the ways with Ranger now?
If you can get a Filatov-type return sure, but I doubt the Lightning get that. Considering Ranger is coming off a second shoulder surgery, his value has probably dropped a little. When considering you want a quality defenseman, there aren't a lot of defensemen out there that are a significant upgrade over Ranger. Then you have to consider that Tampa has finished at the bottom of the conference the last two seasons. Also consider the owners and GM don't have a great reputation around the league. Then consider the owners aren't free spending and are going to have a budget so whoever signed is going to be on the cheap. Who's going to come to a team that isn't a contender and isn't breaking the bank to sign free agents? I think it's better to wait and see with Ranger. You have him on the cheap now and that's never a bad thing. If he doesn't have a great season, he won't be asking for 3+ million. If he does have a good season, he raises his trade value and he's an RFA so his rights can be traded if he's asking too much. Then you could get a UFA to replace him or slot one of the young guys(ex:Wishart, Mihalik, Quick) in when they have another year of experience. I don't see why it's better to dump Ranger just to overpay for a UFA who's older. The Lightning need a top pairing guy if that's the case and they probably aren't going to get one. Overpaying for someone who's a top-4 guy like Ranger doesn't solve anything, it's a lateral move that costs more and allows less money to be spent on other areas.

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05-26-2009, 08:52 PM
  #46
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both teams are trading the wrong assets....cbj needs scoring and is trading their best offensive prospect and tampa bay needs defense and is trading a top 2 pairing dman
I'd say hes top-4, but yes, you are correct.

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05-26-2009, 10:10 PM
  #47
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If Filitov were a blue chipper he would have been on the ice. You won't get Ranger a top 4 d-man for Filitov alone.

Filitov might be good, might be Lady Nagy.

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05-26-2009, 10:24 PM
  #48
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who's Filitov?

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05-26-2009, 10:28 PM
  #49
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If Filitov were a blue chipper he would have been on the ice.

This is probably one of the dumbest statements I've read in a while. Are you telling me guys like:

Alex Pietrangelo
Cody Hodgson
Colin Wilson
James vanRiemsdyk
Karl Alzner
and many more...

Are not blue chippers simply because they aren't in the NHL?

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05-26-2009, 11:11 PM
  #50
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This is probably one of the dumbest statements I've read in a while. Are you telling me guys like:

Alex Pietrangelo
Cody Hodgson
Colin Wilson
James vanRiemsdyk
Karl Alzner
and many more...

Are not blue chippers simply because they aren't in the NHL?

Apples and Oranges, Alzner was the only one of the guys you mention to spend the year (most of it) in the minors and that is much more the norm with D-men. The others spent the bulk of their time in JR's or the NCAA.

Filatov being such an offensive star in the new no checking NHL couldn't crack and offensively starved line up.
He may end up good but you won't get him for Ranger, a proven commodity.

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