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Old
05-31-2009, 01:29 PM
  #51
Martyros
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Originally Posted by VictoryRose View Post
You're retarded if you think the BOG will EVER capitulate on a Salary Cap now that it's in place. It's the only thing keeping some franchises competitive and their fan bases interested.
it is/will also be the reason why some players will not be able to play in the NHL because of all the bidding going on for every single player during July 1. There are many stars entering the NHL, because of this many other stars leave the NHL for the KHL because most if not all teams just don't have the money or cap space to sign them. I agree that the salary cap is the reason why all these teams are competitive, there used to be a big gap, now every team is a good team, only the top 4-5 teams are just dominant. I don't know about you, but i'd really like to see players such as Morozov back in the NHL, but at the same time, i want every team to be equal in skill, it's just that there is always going to be a GM that ****s up his franchise for a few years doing something stupid like signing players to 15 year deals.....

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05-31-2009, 01:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Martyros View Post
GM that ****s up his franchise for a few years doing something stupid like signing players to 15 year deals.....

Except that if it's the right player (Mike Richards, VLC, Franzen, Zetterberg) it isn't stupid.

If it's Rick DiPietro, well, yeah. But these are the guys that traded out of position to take Luke Schenn last year.

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05-31-2009, 01:56 PM
  #53
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When I look at Lecavalier's career stats, two things jump out at me. He's played 80+ games in 7 of his 10 seasons and only played less than 75 one time. If there isn't enough good reasons to trade for the guy, there is another.The other is his plus/minus which he has been a minus in 6 seasons. He was a plus 23 the year he won the Cup. I know this is a useless stat but you can't help but notice a career -89.

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I have mentioned this on several occasions. The problem is that those against the trade do not want to acknowledge that having a cap hit that is higher than your actual salary can be an asset to a team struggling to make the salary floor while trying to keep monetary losses at a minimum.
Yeah I think the real issue will be with getting AEG to pay a guy $10M over the next 7(?) seasons. Although, as has been stated, they stand to really make a lot more at the gate, jersey's etc. With AEG's development in Downtown, gate revenue will have an exponential effect going into the future. Having 18,118 people down there on any given night is going to draw more money into LA Live.

When you look at the options (mainly UFA's) out there, assuming this is also one of them, you'd have to imagine this something DL is really trying to get done. He sets a higher value on a center than he does wingers and all the top tier UFA's are wingers. Then there is that issue of negotiating a contract. We all know how good DL is at that (UFA's and our own players alike). Unless the cost gets out of hand, this is something we should all be pushing for. If he could make this happen and trade next year's first instead of this years, that would be amazing. Still, I'm not holding my breath.

If DL can trade for VL and re-sign Frolov this summer, I'd really consider getting my season tickets again.


Last edited by Buddy The Elf: 05-31-2009 at 03:18 PM.
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Old
05-31-2009, 02:16 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by VictoryRose View Post
Except that if it's the right player (Mike Richards, VLC, Franzen, Zetterberg) it isn't stupid.

If it's Rick DiPietro, well, yeah. But these are the guys that traded out of position to take Luke Schenn last year.
thats what i'm saying, notice i only pointed out the 15 year deal then we've got players coming off injury seasons that could be signed to long term deals ala McCauley/Handzus, one didn't pan out very well.

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05-31-2009, 03:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Tocchet hating him is a little harsh but from lockerroom quotes from players and coaching staff seem to indicate that St.Louis is the real captain while Lecavalier wears the "C" because he is more popular with fans.

That does seem to be a theme with Lightning coaches though, Tortorella and Melrose both said some things about Lecavalier needing to be motivated every night.
If you have 3 coaches that have a problem with a player shouldnt that be a red flag?

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05-31-2009, 03:19 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
If you have 3 coaches that have a problem with a player shouldnt that be a red flag?
Yes. Hopefully it will be your problem by draft day.

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05-31-2009, 04:06 PM
  #57
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I can see it now.

We trade our #5. As it turns out, Kane would have fallen to us if we had kept the pick.

Squidward and I have a "mother ****er of all the **** luck" moment.

By December 2009, Kane is outscoring both Vinny and Kovy and is in the running for the scoring title during the season. DIEHARD cries in his O'Sullivan handkerchief.

Chazz makes all of us beer. We feel a little better and convince one another that everything will turn out ok. The enthusiasm returns because Vinny has been playing well as of late and the team is still having a decent season. The playoffs are well within reach.

Vinny then goes down with a season and possibly career ending injury when Calder, who we are pissed off is still a King, accidentally runs over Vinny's hand with a skate during practice.

The Kings finish third to last in the West.

Tony claims it was an improvement over last season and the future is bright. HF is in chaos. Everyone places everyone else on ignore. AEG has had enough. Dean is fired.

Leiweke announces Luc as the new GM with the speech, "Luc has been a winner his entire hockey career and was the face of this team during its most prominent seasons. We are proud to have him lead our Kings into the future and are confident he will restore the winning tradition of this franchise."

Many are stunned.

PSP finally puts himself out of his misery and becomes a Ducks fan. Neil buys him a beer.

DIEHARD threatens to set himself on fire outside of Staples Center during a Carolina v. Kings game. He has poured kerosene on himself and is holding a lighter. Chazz and I try to convince him not to do it but he keeps muttering "O'Sullivan would have wanted it this way". When we finally have him coming around, some young kid who has only been following the Kings for 10 years comes up to him and tells him to be more patient. His lower lip begins to quiver. He goes over the edge. BBQ DIEHARD.

Chazz and I go across the street to ESPN Zone to mourn the loss of our friend. We have an IPA in his honor.

We run into Squidward who is proudly wearing a Canes jersey.

Two seasons later, Frolov goes on to lift the Cup with the Red Wings and wins the Selke.
This is hilarious and could become painstakingly true, best post ever!!

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Old
05-31-2009, 05:46 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by drivelikejoewho View Post

If DL can trade for VL and re-sign Frolov this summer, I'd really consider getting my season tickets again.
This set of circumstances should cement the offseason as a complete success.

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Old
05-31-2009, 08:25 PM
  #59
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Evander Kane as the best player to come out of the draft? Surely you jest Zad.
I will go on record agreeing that Kane will be the best player to come out of this draft. If I am wrong, may Kim Jong-il fire a nuclear missile into my junk...

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Old
05-31-2009, 09:24 PM
  #60
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I will go on record agreeing that Kane will be the best player to come out of this draft. If I am wrong, may Kim Jong-il fire a nuclear missile into my junk...
Fire up the engines...

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Old
05-31-2009, 09:29 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
I will go on record agreeing that Kane will be the best player to come out of this draft. If I am wrong, may Kim Jong-il fire a nuclear missile into my junk...
I would love for Dean to get Kane at the draft....but I would gladly be wrong about Kane to see that scenario come to pass.

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Old
06-01-2009, 02:00 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
People who are against this trade utterly confuse me.

Unless of course Dean gives up multiple 1st round picks and/or prospects in order to get Lecavalier....which should not be a concern because....this is Dean Lombardi we are talking about.
This is a player who has a 11 year x $7.7 mil retirement contract to play for a team whom he's never played with. It's a big gamble for us to acquire what is pretty much an unmovable asset. If he doesn't like it here or doesn't meld in with the culture, then consider yourself toast. This isn't a great looking contract, it looks like a free agent contract to me and that's exactly what it is. He's more expensive then Zetterberg, I just don't see how this could be a solid move.

You know, I'm just grateful that trade rumors often times point to moves that are least likely to happen. Kings are probably singled out solely because we're one of the teams that can take the cap hit.

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06-01-2009, 06:36 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
This is a player who has a 11 year x $7.7 mil retirement contract to play for a team whom he's never played with. It's a big gamble for us to acquire what is pretty much an unmovable asset. If he doesn't like it here or doesn't meld in with the culture, then consider yourself toast. This isn't a great looking contract, it looks like a free agent contract to me and that's exactly what it is. He's more expensive then Zetterberg, I just don't see how this could be a solid move.

You know, I'm just grateful that trade rumors often times point to moves that are least likely to happen. Kings are probably singled out solely because we're one of the teams that can take the cap hit.
His cap hit is slightly larger than Kopitar's........with one major difference.....he has actually put up more than 40 goals / 90 points in a season. So he is not being paid for what could happen....just to do what he has already proven he has done before. Based on the risk factor alone it should be harder to move a contract like Kopitar's than it would be to move Lecavalier's.

The 11 year thing is way overplayed......because.....as I stated before I would be shocked if he plays more than 9 more seasons.......Someone who has already made $84 million is probably not going to risk a major injury in order to play 2 more years just so he can add $2.5 million more to his retirement fund.

So it comes down to whether Vinny can play a reasonably high level of hockey until he is 38 years old. And as I showed in another thread there are numerous players in the league now who have consistently put up 60+ point seasons well into their late 30's.......so it is not like it is a rare occurance.


Last edited by Captain Ron: 06-01-2009 at 06:43 AM.
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Old
06-01-2009, 08:58 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
I will go on record agreeing that Kane will be the best player to come out of this draft. If I am wrong, may Kim Jong-il fire a nuclear missile into my junk...
Didn't know they had the mini missle!

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Old
06-01-2009, 09:55 AM
  #65
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A dose of reality. This deal has potential long-term disaster written all over it. TB will have to pretty much give VL away to the Kings to unload that contract. Uncle Phil didn't get that rich handing out insane deals. Risk management -- not well understood here. This is not a knock on VL. However, his on ice value >>>>>>> his trade value. If this trade happens, TB will not be getting 5th overall, JJ or any other promising assets in return. Just Preissing, later rounds picks etc. TB has no leverage. Kings have safer ways to upgrade talent.
Wow! This is the first post in this thread that's made some sense. Well, up until the last two sentences.

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Old
06-01-2009, 10:58 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
His cap hit is slightly larger than Kopitar's........with one major difference.....he has actually put up more than 40 goals / 90 points in a season. So he is not being paid for what could happen....just to do what he has already proven he has done before. Based on the risk factor alone it should be harder to move a contract like Kopitar's than it would be to move Lecavalier's.

The 11 year thing is way overplayed......because.....as I stated before I would be shocked if he plays more than 9 more seasons.......Someone who has already made $84 million is probably not going to risk a major injury in order to play 2 more years just so he can add $2.5 million more to his retirement fund.

So it comes down to whether Vinny can play a reasonably high level of hockey until he is 38 years old. And as I showed in another thread there are numerous players in the league now who have consistently put up 60+ point seasons well into their late 30's.......so it is not like it is a rare occurance.
I agree with you, he's a proven commodity and that is a value in itself. But the difference between Kopitar and Vinny is upside. By the way of the team, Kopitar will (hopefully) be improving and growing with the team. As Vinny progresses in age, not only will his play suffer, but his potential for injury increases at the same time.

And you're hoping for two things out of Vinny, that 1) he retires early and 2) he continues to be productive well into his late 30's. But we're under contractual obligation to pay him no matter his production and into his 40's. So those are two big "if's" that have to go our way to make it a good contract. That sounds like a gamble to me.

Now, I didn't see your statistic or whatever you posted on your last thread that showed players being productive well into their 30's, but I have a sneaking suspicion that what you showed is flawed because the players who continue to play well into their late 30's are already the cream of the crop. If they're still in the league at that age, chances are it's because they're still capable of being productive, making it a moot point. If your post showed all players from draft who entered the league, I'd be willing to bet you'd see a significant decline in overall productivity and contribution of the player.... but in all honesty, I probably shouldn't comment because I missed that post and it's all assumption on my part.

For the record, I'm not against just Vinny's contract, I'm against all retirement contracts, Zetterberg too. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to sign a player til his 40's. Why sign a UFA straight into his retirement? It makes no sense to me. It's signing a deteriorating asset at premium prices. What advantage do we have? What are we gaining?? They're no different than the Yashin and Dipietro contracts that most people are so quick to derail.


Last edited by KingPurpleDinosaur: 06-01-2009 at 11:12 AM.
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Old
06-01-2009, 11:40 AM
  #67
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
I agree with you, he's a proven commodity and that is a value in itself. But the difference between Kopitar and Vinny is upside. By the way of the team, Kopitar will (hopefully) be improving and growing with the team. As Vinny progresses in age, not only will his play suffer, but his potential for injury increases at the same time.
While I don't disagree, take a look at his games played since he has been in the league. 7 seasons of 80+ games and only one season under 75 games. Now that doesn't mean he'll remain healthy into the future and anything can happen, but we're not talking about Justin Williams here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
And you're hoping for two things out of Vinny, that 1) he retires early and 2) he continues to be productive well into his late 30's. But we're under contractual obligation to pay him no matter his production and into his 40's. So those are two big "if's" that have to go our way to make it a good contract. That sounds like a gamble to me.
3) That he helps bring your team a God damn Stanley Cup!

Of course it is a gamble. Signing Gaborik is a gamble. I'm not just talking about if he is signed, I'm talking about trying to sign him in the first place. And that goes for any other UFA. Look at the list of UFA's signed by the Kings over the years. Who is at the top? Pavol Demitra? You've gotta be kidding me. Sure I'd love to sign a UFA but if history is any indication of what we can expect, I think we're better off on the trade market.

Holding on to all kinds of prospects hoping they pan out is a gamble. Everything is a gamble. And considering our GM's success at signing players (or lack thereof), I find it a positive that we wouldn't have to worry about DL blowing a negotiation for 11 full years!

I think the reason these long term deals have gone down are a way of circumventing the CAP. It isn't realistic to expect them to all play into the very late 30's or early 40's. I think that is why you see them getting paid a bulk of the money in the earlier years too. That way when they are in the twilight of their careers, it will be much easier to hang 'em up when your are making $1m per year opposed to $7m+.

Lastly, DL has a hardon for the 1-2 punch down the middle and just look at the teams in the finals if there isn't good reason for it. Where else are we going to find a center of that caliber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
Now, I didn't see your statistic or whatever you posted on your last thread that showed players being productive well into their 30's, but I have a sneaking suspicion that what you showed is flawed because the players who continue to play well into their late 30's are already the cream of the crop. If they're still in the league at that age, chances are it's because they're still capable of being productive, making it a moot point. If your post showed all players from draft who entered the league, I'd be willing to bet you'd see a significant decline in overall productivity and contribution of the player.... but in all honesty, I probably shouldn't comment because I missed that post and it's all assumption on my part.
Of course they are the cream of the crop. What do you expect a guy who is barely a 4th liner in his late 20's to play well into his 40's? And we are talking about a player who has been very healthy through out his career and is coincidentally part of that cream of the crop.

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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
For the record, I'm not against just Vinny's contract, I'm against all retirement contracts, Zetterberg too. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to sign a player til his 40's. Why sign a UFA straight into his retirement? It makes no sense to me. It's signing a deteriorating asset at premium prices. What advantage do we have? What are we gaining?? They're no different than the Yashin and Dipietro contracts that most people are so quick to derail.
I believe it is CAP circumvention. Maybe I'm crazy but I don't expect Lecavalier, Zetterberg or Franzen to finish out those contracts.

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Old
06-01-2009, 11:50 AM
  #68
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They're no different than the Yashin and Dipietro contracts that most people are so quick to derail.
While I agree with you that his contract is a concern, since there's a distinct possibility that he only has a couple of good years left in him (the list of great NHL'ers whose production fell off precipitously after the age of 31 or so is huge), you're not seriously comparing Vinny and Zetterberg to Yashin and DiPietro, are you??

I've been persuaded that this is a gamble worth taking, but let's not pretend that it is not a gamble. If Vinny is putting up a number like 20 goals and 30 assists at the age of 32, his cap hit will become very, very painful and will continue to be very painful for years to come. I think that him posting such low numbers at 32 is a fairly low probability, but it is indeed a probability.

P.S. Does anyone have a link to that excellent analysis Daniel Tolinsky did at hockeybuzz.com regarding the productivity of players after 30? Pretty eye-opening. And BTW, while looking for it, I noticed that Ek now says VL is going to Toronto.

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Old
06-01-2009, 02:42 PM
  #69
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While I agree with you that his contract is a concern, since there's a distinct possibility that he only has a couple of good years left in him (the list of great NHL'ers whose production fell off precipitously after the age of 31 or so is huge), you're not seriously comparing Vinny and Zetterberg to Yashin and DiPietro, are you??

I've been persuaded that this is a gamble worth taking, but let's not pretend that it is not a gamble. If Vinny is putting up a number like 20 goals and 30 assists at the age of 32, his cap hit will become very, very painful and will continue to be very painful for years to come. I think that him posting such low numbers at 32 is a fairly low probability, but it is indeed a probability.

P.S. Does anyone have a link to that excellent analysis Daniel Tolinsky did at hockeybuzz.com regarding the productivity of players after 30? Pretty eye-opening. And BTW, while looking for it, I noticed that Ek now says VL is going to Toronto.
Toronto and Montreal need Vinny while the Kings only want him. I think he'll cost too much the other way and the only way I see Vinny in a Kings uniform next season is if it's a steal for the Kings. Enter Toronto and Montreal, 2 teams willing to overpay and probably raising the stakes as they bid against each other. The hard reality of this offseason is that Vinny will probably go to a team other than the Kings, the Kings will select 5th overall and they will not sign a single impact free agent. It comes down to quantity and demand and Lombardi has not shown he is willing to outbid anybody unless your name is Michael Handzus (turns out good ol Deano was the only bidder). Oh, and the Kings will miss the playoffs while 17 year old kids tell fans of the Kings for 20+ years to remain patient.

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06-01-2009, 03:38 PM
  #70
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... Oh, and the Kings will miss the playoffs while 17 year old kids tell fans of the Kings for 20+ years to remain patient.
Next thing you know, you'll be yelling at the whippersnappers to get off your lawn

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Old
06-01-2009, 03:41 PM
  #71
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Next thing you know, you'll be yelling at the whippersnappers to get off your lawn
That was you? I SWEAR I was just getting a stray cat.

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06-01-2009, 06:14 PM
  #72
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I believe it is CAP circumvention. Maybe I'm crazy but I don't expect Lecavalier, Zetterberg or Franzen to finish out those contracts.
I can pretty mush guarantee it. The last 2 years of Vinny's contract are $1.5 million and $1 million.

Do you think a 38 or 39 year old athelete that has made in excess of $100 million over his career is going to risk a serious injury before he retires just so he can get an extra million or 2?

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06-01-2009, 06:15 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
I can pretty mush guarantee it. The last 2 years of Vinny's contract are $1.5 million and $1 million.

Do you think a 38 or 39 year old athelete that has made in excess of $100 million over his career is going to risk a serious injury before he retires just so he can get an extra million or 2?
mush this...

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Old
06-01-2009, 06:43 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
I can pretty mush guarantee it. The last 2 years of Vinny's contract are $1.5 million and $1 million.

Do you think a 38 or 39 year old athelete that has made in excess of $100 million over his career is going to risk a serious injury before he retires just so he can get an extra million or 2?
It is cap circumvention without a doubt. Bettman and a few others officials talked publicly about how they're going to need to look into ways to close that gap in the CBA.

I don't recall which of the Detroit contracts it was for, but I remember reading something about a handshake agreement that the player was going to retire before the end of the contract terms and that because it was signed before the age of 35 the remaining cap hits get wiped off the books.

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06-01-2009, 06:58 PM
  #75
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It is cap circumvention without a doubt. Bettman and a few others officials talked publicly about how they're going to need to look into ways to close that gap in the CBA.

I don't recall which of the Detroit contracts it was for, but I remember reading something about a handshake agreement that the player was going to retire before the end of the contract terms and that because it was signed before the age of 35 the remaining cap hits get wiped off the books.
Johan Franzen.

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