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Saku (our God) or Mats Sundin

View Poll Results: Who would you choose for the next 5 years?
Saku Koivu 96 55.81%
Mats Sundin 76 44.19%
Voters: 172. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-06-2004, 07:02 PM
  #176
goalchenyuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH²
Have any hope of scoring 15 goals ?

Get real. He scored 21 goals 2 seasons ago playing with incredible set up men such as Zednik, Bulis, Kilger, etc. He scored 14 in 68 games last season.
so ?
14 = 14 or 14 = 20 ? The problem with the fans of Koivu is that they don't understand that 14 is 14 ...you are building an hero with your '' if ...this and if ...that... '' .There are no ''if '', there are number at the end of a season ; and those numbers are saying that Koivu has an +-46 points average / season , since the start of his career .

Koivu is playing a hard game for his size and that 's probably why he's so injury prone. But at the end , the fact is that he's not a 20 goals scorer, and apart if he totally change his game , it 's not going to change.

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10-06-2004, 07:14 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1

Like you said, because Koivu have played only 400-500 games, i feel that he will be more durable than a guy who is in the league since he's 18 or 19 and have already played 1000 + games.

so, from you , injuries keep a body younger than a good health ? common !

I strongly believe that the 3 next seasons that Koivu will play will be the best of his career.

Sundin, sooner or later, will drop in production. Like Modano and Selanne.
He's still very good, but time is cruel.
last 3 years , Sundin average 36 goals/season. Are you saying that his production will drop enought to be less than the 16 average goals / season than Koivu will keep ?

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10-06-2004, 07:54 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1
Like you said, because Koivu have played only 400-500 games, i feel that he will be more durable than a guy who is in the league since he's 18 or 19 and have already played 1000 + games.
No logic there...

Theoretically accourding to that, an injury prone 35 year old with 20 games of NHL experience would be more durable than a 37 year old consistant player with 1000 games under his belt. Unrealistic of course, but agrees with your theory.

Sundin is one of the most durable and consistant players in the league. He has shown few signs of slowing down. Will he slow down? Sure...but he still has 5 years of decent hockey in him, and could easily play till 40. We all know Koivu's ridiculous injury problems and it makes no sense to just assume that he will be more durable than Mats Sundin who rarely ever gets injured.


Last edited by Bloody Sabbath: 10-06-2004 at 08:00 PM.
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Old
10-06-2004, 07:59 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Before you get all tough on me, you might try to properly read what I said.
Yeah, sure, blame the victim.

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10-06-2004, 08:09 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Before you get all tough on me, you might try to properly read what I said.
My point is that Koivu has demonstrated he is capable of putting up 20 goals season on the board when healthy. It's not going to change drastically over the next 3-4 years. It might even improve if you give him wingers who know what to do with the puck.

Now I agree with you that Koivu has very limited goal scoring skills but to say he'll have to get his nose dirty to "have any hopes of putting up 15 goals" is a big stretch and that's underestimating Koivu IMO. Maybe I'm biased but I just don't see him in the same light you do.

I'm willing to bet with you that he'll put up at least three 20+ goals season if he can stay healthy over the next 5 years, and yes I'll still be here to defend that claim.

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Old
10-06-2004, 08:45 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
last 3 years , Sundin average 36 goals/season. Are you saying that his production will drop enought to be less than the 16 average goals / season than Koivu will keep ?
It's not just about goals.

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10-06-2004, 09:25 PM
  #182
Des Louise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1
It's not just about goals.
Exactly.

Sundin has half the intensity Koivu has the ice. That's no knock on Sundin, few players are working as hard as Saku . I don't know how Koivu is doing in the dressing room as far as leadership is concerned but I sure know how much of an exemple he sets on the ice in terms of work ethic. I'd rather have a player with less skill but with more heart, especially if he's younger. I like a player who will rise his ppg average in the playoffs, play injured, will hit when he has a chance and play good defense when asked to.

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Old
10-06-2004, 10:22 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH²
Exactly.

Sundin has half the intensity Koivu has the ice. That's no knock on Sundin, few players are working as hard as Saku . I don't know how Koivu is doing in the dressing room as far as leadership is concerned but I sure know how much of an exemple he sets on the ice in terms of work ethic. I'd rather have a player with less skill but with more heart, especially if he's younger. I like a player who will rise his ppg average in the playoffs, play injured, will hit when he has a chance and play good defense when asked to.
sorry guy , but i don't think that Sundin has half of the intensity of Koivu.As i said few times , fast little players skating in every directions always seems to be more intensive then the others.It's a kind of illusion; big or tall players are more powerfull and guys like Sundin, Lemieux or Lecavalier are more fluide .But they seem to be more lazzy .

Small players have to go fast to protect the puck ( and to protect themselves )St-Louis , Petrov ,Koivu ,Theo Fleury , are all looking intensive but once again it 's just that it's more viewable.

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10-06-2004, 10:29 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaGLE1
It's not just about goals.
??? that 's what we were talking about

anyway , i don't think that at 4-5 millions / year , we are talking about defensive game , no ?

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10-06-2004, 10:44 PM
  #185
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Sundin has 50 pounds and 7 inches on Koivu. Even if Koivu is twice as intense as Sundin, Sundin can still manhandle him physically because he is so much bigger. If Sundin doesn't have to grind and bash to rack up points, he can use his huge size down low to advantage and he's one of the toughest guys to get the puck off. (that's something Koivu can't do, so he damn well better play with an edge to make up for it in other ways.)

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10-06-2004, 10:55 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH²
Now I agree with you that Koivu has very limited goal scoring skills but to say he'll have to get his nose dirty to "have any hopes of putting up 15 goals" is a big stretch and that's underestimating Koivu IMO. Maybe I'm biased but I just don't see him in the same light you do.

I'm willing to bet with you that he'll put up at least three 20+ goals season if he can stay healthy over the next 5 years, and yes I'll still be here to defend that claim.
Ok, but allow me to clarify here. I do think Koivu can score 15 goals easily(assuming he plays 82 games ). What I am saying is that unlike Mats, he needs to play an intense game and play in traffic areas to do it.

As Saku gets older, and as the injuries have piled on, I think it's going to get more and more difficult for him to get away with it, seeing as he has had trouble staying healthy at a younger age.

With Sundin, you get a guy who can easily score from anywhere because of a much better shot.

It's always risky when you have to use a lot of grit and heart but that is of course acceptable. It's just that in Koivu's case, he has a history of being injury prone and that's a big stumbling block for me.

I just think that as Sundin's physical peak declines, he'll have an easier time to produce than Koivu (who already has very average skills to begin with) will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH²
I'm willing to bet with you that he'll put up at least three 20+ goals season if he can stay healthy over the next 5 years, and yes I'll still be here to defend that claim.
Define healthy

82 games? 76? 72?

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10-06-2004, 11:04 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Ok, but allow me to clarify here. I do think Koivu can score 15 goals easily(assuming he plays 82 games ). What I am saying is that unlike Mats, he needs to play an intense game and play in traffic areas to do it.
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
As Saku gets older, and as the injuries have piled on, I think it's going to get more and more difficult for him to get away with it, seeing as he has had trouble staying healthy at a younger age.
Damn right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
With Sundin, you get a guy who can easily score from anywhere because of a much better shot.
Hell yeah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
It's always risky when you have to use a lot of grit and heart but that is of course acceptable. It's just that in Koivu's case, he has a history of being injury prone and that's a big stumbling block for me.
Definitely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I just think that as Sundin's physical peak declines, he'll have an easier time to produce than Koivu (who already has very average skills to begin with) will.
I agree


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10-06-2004, 11:04 PM
  #188
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH²
Exactly.

Sundin has half the intensity Koivu has the ice. That's no knock on Sundin, few players are working as hard as Saku . I don't know how Koivu is doing in the dressing room as far as leadership is concerned but I sure know how much of an exemple he sets on the ice in terms of work ethic. I'd rather have a player with less skill but with more heart, especially if he's younger. I like a player who will rise his ppg average in the playoffs, play injured, will hit when he has a chance and play good defense when asked to.
Ideally, you would want the whole package. Someone with the grit and intensity of Koivu and the skills of Mats.

But unfortunately, those players are rare and few. Now, I personally think that in the Habs situation, and team that can't buy itself a goalscorer to save its life with, and where people freak out when a guy like Dagenais scores a few goals.... I think some premium talent is what this team needs most at forwards.

You can pick yourself some Steve Thomas, Mike Keane or whatever is on the market to get the grit, intensity, leadership. Hopefully, it might even be better if the guy can send players on their ass and not get injured. A good, tough grinder.
Or even better, a power forward.

But that depends on hockey philosophy, I guess. I can live with a player like Mats and surround him with the kind of guys he needs. It's easier, not to mention I know he is almost always going to be in the lineup so that's one (big) hole less to fill. With Saku, I must find him quality scorers, get an inferior season and approximately 25% of the season I must live with him in the infirmary room and bump all my centers up.

Granted, this should be less of a problem for the Habs with Ribeiro and Bonk. More quality depth.

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10-06-2004, 11:06 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
than Koivu (who already has very average skills to begin with)
That should read "goalscoring skills".

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10-06-2004, 11:13 PM
  #190
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Saku Koivu

Assets
Is a great playmaker and makes his teammates better. Has slick moves and good hands. Makes things happen on the ice. Never backs down from a challenge, on or off the ice.

Flaws
Injuries and illness have wreaked havoc on his NHL career. His fireball style leaves him susceptible to getting hurt.

Mats Sundin

Assets
Has excellent strength and reach and is very hard to get the puck from. Is extremely slick, loves to find the holes and has a wide variety of shots. Durable is the key to his long-term success.

Flaws
While strong on his skates, he's not overly physical considering his size. Has defensive limitations. Is slowly starting to show signs of decay.

credit to www.tsn.ca

The main thing is the durability. There's no way that Koivu who plays the hard nose game and gets injured so often, has at all a bigger chance of staying healthy than Sundin who has a proven durable history and is still in top physical shape, and doesn't play the risky game.

A 40 year old Sundin playing even 60 games, would get more points than a 37 year old Koivu sitting in the hospital with his leg amputated. (God forbid)

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10-07-2004, 12:34 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Ideally, you would want the whole package. Someone with the grit and intensity of Koivu and the skills of Mats.
I think intangibles make this debate closer than Sundin stats and overall production indicate. It's a hard position to defend and I don't have half of your eloquence but I believe strongly in my position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
But unfortunately, those players are rare and few. Now, I personally think that in the Habs situation, and team that can't buy itself a goalscorer to save its life with, and where people freak out when a guy like Dagenais scores a few goals.... I think some premium talent is what this team needs most at forwards.
I never freaked out because of Dagenais' few goals. But we have some good goal scorers in Hamilton. In 2-3 years we're going to start to reap the benifits of some really good overall drafting by Savard considering what rank we made our picks.

And Gainey is going to bring all of this together which means Koivu is going to be surrounded a lot better in the next few years than he has been so far in his career. I think we just need to stay pat for a while. We have enough talent to get into the playoffs while our players develop. Guys like Souray, Koivu and Rivet can provide some leadership and a good exemple in the meantime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
You can pick yourself some Steve Thomas, Mike Keane or whatever is on the market to get the grit, intensity, leadership. Hopefully, it might even be better if the guy can send players on their ass and not get injured. A good, tough grinder.
Or even better, a power forward.
There's nothing like your best player showing that grit. And right now Koivu is our best skater.

Steve Thomas is a really good player. He's played with Sundin for a while with the leafs when he was much less past his prime back then than he is now . I really appreciate the tear he's been on with the ducks, and also how he has responded with the wings last season. But with the lockout.. he's getting old.

And Mike Keane is just washed up. It would be another McKay mistake. I'd rather have Ward in there. It's too bad we gave away Keane as a bonus gift to Lacroix for totaly reaping us off in the Roy deal but we have to get over that now and realize Keane is a dinosaure of the past.

But apparently Gainey thinks like you since there have been a lot of reports of him inquiring about Corson last season...

They don't seem all that easy to find...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
But that depends on hockey philosophy, I guess. I can live with a player like Mats and surround him with the kind of guys he needs. It's easier, not to mention I know he is almost always going to be in the lineup so that's one (big) hole less to fill. With Saku, I must find him quality scorers, get an inferior season and approximately 25% of the season I must live with him in the infirmary room and bump all my centers up.
I personally think you're harsh. Yes you have to surround Koivu with quality scorers but if you do he's going to put up as much points as Sundin IMO. Not an inferior season.

He's also proven to be healthy since his cancer. Maybe his injury history is behind him ? 13 games in 2 years ain't that much. Look at Lance Armstrong, he's as good as new. They both had the same trainer for the rehabilitation.

Anyway we managed to survive while Koivu was injured with close to a .500 record. With the addition of Bonk and the emergence of Ribeiro we don't rely on Koivu all that much anymore.

But what's really relevant here is playoff production. In the past 3 seasons. Koivu and Sundin have played respectively 23 and 24 playoffs games. Koivu has 7 goals while Sundin has 7 goals. Koivu has 21 pts while Sundin has 20pts. Sundin has played with guys like Mogilny,Nolan and Roberts while Koivu had the exceptional luck of playing with guys like Zednik, Perreault, Audette, Kilger and thank god Kovalev.

You have to consider the fact Sundin has been pretty well surrounded the past few years in Toronto and they haven't done all that much in the playoffs. And that's with Belfour, a better goaltender than Theodore. Nope... not all that impressed with Sundin team achievements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Granted, this should be less of a problem for the Habs with Ribeiro and Bonk. More quality depth.
Exactly.

And with Higgins, Perezhogin, Kostitsyn, Plekanec, etc. We do have a good bunch of offensive prospects down there.

I think it's safe to assume we're only going to get better over the next few years. And that should help counteract Koivu's mortality in the future.

Also about Koivu's injury proneness. I think Koivu has wisened up, he's more smart about his activity on the ice. He plays a much less risky game, he's much more efficient. Which is part of the reason I think Koivu is going to be healthier than he has been in the past for the rest of his career.

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Old
10-07-2004, 01:11 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH²
Steve Thomas is a really good player. He's played with Sundin for a while with the leafs when he was much less past his prime back then than he is now . I really appreciate the tear he's been on with the ducks, and also how he has responded with the wings last season. But with the lockout.. he's getting old.

And Mike Keane is just washed up. It would be another McKay mistake. I'd rather have Ward in there. It's too bad we gave away Keane as a bonus gift to Lacroix for totaly reaping us off in the Roy deal but we have to get over that now and realize Keane is a dinosaure of the past.

But apparently Gainey thinks like you since there have been a lot of reports of him inquiring about Corson last season...

They don't seem all that easy to find...
They're not unles you have the luxury to do so, no. Sometimes you have to send significant talent away to get one but there's always good finds if you look long enough.

Those I used were more quick examples than actual suggestions, BTW

Brian Sutter seems to be doing a decent job of drafting and acquiring two-way players lately, for instance. You just have to go for it, which unfortunately the Habs don't do often enough.

But yeah, it's not the easiest thing to find. I think Feaster overpaid for Fedotenko (despite the cup) but it still gives you an idea that players who have decent talent and bring a gritty game are not given away free when you see a guy like Pitkanen going the other way.

Still, I believe with a 2nd rounder or a decent prospect, you can get a gritty guy who can chip respectable offense when you look hard. With Gainey, I think you will see some attention spent on that more and more as the team takes shape and as skill increases.

Also, on a related but different subject, I really think it's time for the Habs to get themselves a talented (all things related, of course) and dominant enforcer. This has gone long enough now. It needs to be fixed and not with a quick fix solution but instead something solid enough to last 4-6 years.

It needs to be a guy who can take a shift most games without embarassing himself, scare the crap and/or annoy opposing talents and be a tough cookie in fights. All three of those things. Not one, not two. Three.

But that, also, is not easy to acquire.

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