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Draft Day -- PRONGER ACQUIRED (details in post #857)

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Old
06-08-2009, 08:51 PM
  #51
Juicy Couturier*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I would like Briere gone regardless, so not really a problem with that. JVR will be signed for three years, and Giroux's money will be contingent on other developments.



But does it improve our team? I think so.



Erm...okay.



Should be gone anyway.



So, someone else steps up from the minors or you sign a veteran. This is how everyone operates, not everyone has the glut of forwards we've had the past two seasons, in fact it's bizarre how many good young forwards we've had.



We had 9 this postseason.



In that scenario, minutes would be going to other players...some you can possibly identify, and some you cannot as of now.



Right now we have ridiculous forward depth if you look around the league. I'm not sure what league you've been watching. What we have, however, is an unbalanced set of forwards that aren't necessarily good at playing the different roles you need forwards to play. We need a bit less offense, and a bit more checking/grinding ability as we go down the depth chart.



Welcome to a salary cap league...and you seriously need to re-evaluate your dire predictions about the top 6 as we move forward here. So, sure, Bouwmeester gets Briere's money...but who gets Lupul's? Who gets Carle and Jones' money (both of whom would likely be gone)?

Assuming you can move Briere, there is far more flexibility here than you're allowing.
Jester, I must say you have been spot on, not just in this post but this whole thread. I couldnt agree more with what you have been stressing. This might be the first time I've completely agreed with you. I'm sure your happy to hear that

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Old
06-08-2009, 08:52 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Coburn did not take a sweetheart deal...he hadn't even played a full NHL season when he signed that contract. And given that you spent half the season *****ing about his play, I'm shocked your debating with me that he deserves more.

I really don't expect signing Coburn to a three year deal at a reasonable number to be too much of a problem unless he really shows some offense next year...if he shows some offense, then you have an interesting problem. However, as a RFA, I don't think he would complain too much with a 3-year 10.5M deal.
Exactly, it was an extraordinarily dumb deal to sign seeing as he was in the middle of a breakout season, why would he do that? Makes absolutely no sense unless something happened behind the scenes.

Coburn had a normal sophomore slump. He did a lot of stupid things with the puck and was paired with a fairly average defender. Sure he was poor, but he's still a good talent, I think he'll bounce back strong this year personally.

I pointed this out numerous times during the year, but I do think Coburn's level did go up after 60 games or so and he did pretty well in the postseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Maybe, but remember that all the guys that bankroll the idiocy of the last few years...just got f'd up the ass by the markets since last summer. This isn't a matter of GMs wisening up, it's a matter of ownership telling them they can't afford the spending that we've seen.

And the Leafs are a rebuilding team that may not even have Kaberle at that point...I doubt we're going to see Bouwmeester sign up for that scenario this summer.
Never underestimate the power of buck as far as J-Bow potentially signing there. And the Leafs easily make the most money in the league, if they want Bouwmeester, they'll make him a good offer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Watch the NFL much? What happens in the NFL when players get hurt? Either you're f'd, or some young player needs to step up and fill the spot. As the world flattens in the NHL, that is your injury insurance policy, young players on your club and in your system.
Who are these magic young players in our system to fill these gaps? I don't see any of them right now with the possible exceptions of Nodl and Maroon. So you're basically saying we're going to be drafting NHL contributors in our next 2 drafts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
It's easy to get to 14 a night if you're a smart player and getting out there on the PK.
That's like 7 minutes of PK time per night, nobody plays that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
So, you spend less on your third pairing than we are now...and Detroit and Pittsburgh are both unique and teams we aren't going to be able to replicate despite your best efforts. We aren't going to have anyone in Staal's class, nor are we in the gravy train as far as the salary cap that Detroit has been experiencing the last few years (and is about to come to a halt).
Obviously not, I'm not saying we're going to have Staal or Filpulla anchoring our 3rd lines, but I don't feel like watching a Powe-Matsumoto-Nodl 3rd line either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
And is money that can come out of some other roster spot.
Where? You of all people like to complain about our lack of flexibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Seriously, who are you? When did FlyHigh start thinking Coburn was this great?
Coburn had a sophomore slump. He looked noticeably less confident with the puck, took a lot of dumb penalties, and had to adjust to leading a pairing instead of having Kimmo next to him. I think that the struggles could be expected, but he still had some trouble, that's just the fact of the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I'm sorry, were you not the one ragging on the third pairings of the Red Wings and Pens a little bit ago?
Yeah I was. I think the reason that the Pens and Wings can get away with having average 3rd pairings is because their 3rd lines are both really strong defensively and also can play effectively in the offensive zone.

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Old
06-08-2009, 08:56 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Trade Carle
Trade Lupul
Waive/Trade Jones

How much salary is that.
Almost 10.5 million I believe. I wouldnt bank on them waiving Jones though.

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Old
06-08-2009, 09:05 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Trade Carle
Trade Lupul
Waive/Trade Jones

How much salary is that.
With this lineup:

Simon Gagne (5,250,000) - Mike Richards (5,750,000) - Claude Giroux (821,667)
Scott Hartnell (4,200,000) - Jeff Carter (5,000,000) - Danny Briere (6,500,000)
Daniel Carcillo (893,750) - XXX - Arron Asham (640,000)
Riley Cote (550,000) - Darroll Powe (520,000) - Jonathon Kalinski (875,000)

31,000,417

Kimmo Timonen (6,333,333) - Ryan Parent (855,000)
Braydon Coburn (1,300,000) - XXX
Luca Sbisa (875,000) - XXX
XXX

9,363,333

Ray Emery (1,500,000)
XXX

1,500,000

___________

We'd have 14,836,250 to spend on a backup, 2 D, and a checking center.

Rough estimates:

Backup - 1.5 mil
Checking center - 2 mil
Alberts? - 1 mil

Which leaves 10,336,250 for Bouwmeester and any fill in's/callups. If we could get him for close to Kimmos money or lower, it'd be awfully nice to carry the extra cap space towards the deadline.

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Old
06-08-2009, 09:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by flyer6 View Post
Were in cap hell with Briere because he is a luxury and not a need, Bouwmeester fills a need in upgrading our D
When Briere signed, he was a need. I don't think anyone on here will dispute that. We were the worst franchise in the league and let's be honest, nobody knew Carter and Richards were going to make as big a jump as they did (there were lots of people on here who thought Richards would amount to nothing more than a 3rd line 50 point center and Carter really didn't come into his own until this season).

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Old
06-08-2009, 09:24 PM
  #56
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I'm sure they will be after him and I really hope they can pull it off.

I dont know if its possible though.

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Old
06-08-2009, 09:51 PM
  #57
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Can't the Flyers just stick Carle and Jones in the AHL at the start of the season so they will not count against the cap if they cannot be traded?

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Old
06-08-2009, 09:54 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Exactly, it was an extraordinarily dumb deal to sign seeing as he was in the middle of a breakout season, why would he do that? Makes absolutely no sense unless something happened behind the scenes.

Coburn had a normal sophomore slump. He did a lot of stupid things with the puck and was paired with a fairly average defender. Sure he was poor, but he's still a good talent, I think he'll bounce back strong this year personally.

I pointed this out numerous times during the year, but I do think Coburn's level did go up after 60 games or so and he did pretty well in the postseason.



Never underestimate the power of buck as far as J-Bow potentially signing there. And the Leafs easily make the most money in the league, if they want Bouwmeester, they'll make him a good offer.



Who are these magic young players in our system to fill these gaps? I don't see any of them right now with the possible exceptions of Nodl and Maroon. So you're basically saying we're going to be drafting NHL contributors in our next 2 drafts.



That's like 7 minutes of PK time per night, nobody plays that much.



Obviously not, I'm not saying we're going to have Staal or Filpulla anchoring our 3rd lines, but I don't feel like watching a Powe-Matsumoto-Nodl 3rd line either.



Where? You of all people like to complain about our lack of flexibility.



Coburn had a sophomore slump. He looked noticeably less confident with the puck, took a lot of dumb penalties, and had to adjust to leading a pairing instead of having Kimmo next to him. I think that the struggles could be expected, but he still had some trouble, that's just the fact of the matter.



Yeah I was. I think the reason that the Pens and Wings can get away with having average 3rd pairings is because their 3rd lines are both really strong defensively and also can play effectively in the offensive zone.
WOW, I didn't even make it past this part of your post. Holy cow I can't believe how blind most people must be. Coburn wasn't having a "breakout year". He's yet to have one. Oh he's shown glimpses of how good he CAN be but he's never sustained it. HATCHER taught Coburn a hell of a lot in his forst full year here. Once he was bumped up to the top line with Timonen he did alright but everyone forgets just how much Timonen covered up for his mistakes. 1.3 mil was what he should have expected based upon the body of his work to that point. If you have any question just go back to the beginning of this season. Coburn was given charge of the 2nd pairing and he FAILED!!! Our second pairing was aweful. Everyone though Coburn was better than he was and that he could handle running the 2nd pairing because we all thought he had a breakout the previous year. the truth was that it became IMMEDIATLEY apparent just how much of his success was due to him being paired with Hatcher and Timonen the previous year.

We tried Coburn with every possible dman we had on the 2nd pairing and it just wasn't working out. THAT is why we HAD to go out and get Carle. Coburn was bumped back up with Timonen and Carle was stuck with the same guys that Coburn couldn't make work on the 2nd pairing. Guess what happened, CARLE gave us a viable 2nd pairing with the same crappy dmen that Coburn couldn't get the job done with. Now Coburn did turn it around and was playing great at the end of the season but the whole of the season showed just where he TRULY was at in his developement. He's at very much the same point Carter was LAST year when we really came on for the last 1/3rd of the season. If Coburn comes out NEXT season and sustains the level of play from the end of this season THEN we can say he had his breakout season but not before.

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Old
06-08-2009, 09:59 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Can't the Flyers just stick Carle and Jones in the AHL at the start of the season so they will not count against the cap if they cannot be traded?
I like Carle on our 3rd pairing, I know a lot of people don't, but I do so I won't comment on him. Jones on the other hand seems to be tickling Homer and Stevens balls just the right way because they seem to love him. I can't see him being put in the AHL.

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Old
06-08-2009, 10:03 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by supa scoop View Post
With this lineup:

Simon Gagne (5,250,000) - Mike Richards (5,750,000) - Claude Giroux (821,667)
Scott Hartnell (4,200,000) - Jeff Carter (5,000,000) - Danny Briere (6,500,000)
Daniel Carcillo (893,750) - XXX - Arron Asham (640,000)
Riley Cote (550,000) - Darroll Powe (520,000) - Jonathon Kalinski (875,000)

31,000,417

Kimmo Timonen (6,333,333) - Ryan Parent (855,000)
Braydon Coburn (1,300,000) - XXX
Luca Sbisa (875,000) - XXX
XXX

9,363,333

Ray Emery (1,500,000)
XXX

1,500,000

___________

We'd have 14,836,250 to spend on a backup, 2 D, and a checking center.

Rough estimates:

Backup - 1.5 mil
Checking center - 2 mil
Alberts? - 1 mil

Which leaves 10,336,250 for Bouwmeester and any fill in's/callups. If we could get him for close to Kimmos money or lower, it'd be awfully nice to carry the extra cap space towards the deadline.
i dig this but there is no way we can keep asham, cote, and carcillo. one of them has to go. cote IMO, we really don't need a punching bag around here for another year.

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Old
06-08-2009, 10:05 PM
  #61
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Yeah, one of them will be gone, I'm pretty sure it'll be Cote. I'm sure whoever is called up or brought in won't be more than 900k though. Surprisingly we could have enough to make a run at Jay.

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06-08-2009, 10:08 PM
  #62
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though i like carle, i'd rather have JBo instead. and if emery is the guy we are trying to go with we need to have another stud Dman like JBo. hopefully powe can step up and be a strong 3rd line center.

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Old
06-08-2009, 10:09 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.rosenrosen View Post
though i like carle, i'd rather have JBo instead. and if emery is the guy we are trying to go with we need to have another stud Dman like JBo. hopefully powe can step up and be a strong 3rd line center.
OBVIOUSLY. IDIOT...

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06-08-2009, 10:18 PM
  #64
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Carles salary X by 2 and we have Jay on our team.

Simple as that.

Everyone is worried about re-signing Coburn a year from now. Ok, what if he does not improve? Is he going to be Pitkanen #2? Or we can not afford to give him Suter like contract next year? Does he deserve more, Webers like cash? We can not not trade him? Him and Briere in pair for someone good and still be ok?


I feel like we will chose a very cheap............ Beezer like option and will be ****ed for next 10 years. ****ed as in not winning any god damn thing.

Do older fans liked Rico? Remember when he was younger, that is under 30yo? Jay is a better player now with exception of one thing. No playoffs.


Timonen, Bouwmeester and Coburn should be our future for next 3-4 years on D that is if we want to stop Malkin and Crosby in playoffs and not coming up with some lame excuse like " We looked better then any team in the East against these guys"

**** out of here.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 06-08-2009 at 10:28 PM.
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Old
06-08-2009, 10:18 PM
  #65
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I like Powe a lot. I'm hoping Homer takes a look at Blair Betts too. Makes around 600k now and is one of the best penalty killers in the league. Very underrated from what I've seen of him.

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Old
06-08-2009, 10:24 PM
  #66
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I've said this once and I'll say it again.


From what I remember, J bou was pretty much not a factor in the panthers attempt to get into the playoffs...

so what has he done lately..?

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Old
06-08-2009, 10:29 PM
  #67
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blair betts would be good pick up. i'd still love to have dominic moore but as someone said before he wants to much money that's why the leafs traded him.

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06-08-2009, 10:32 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xV Carter 17 Xv View Post
I've said this once and I'll say it again.


From what I remember, J bou was pretty much not a factor in the panthers attempt to get into the playoffs...

so what has he done lately..?
If Jay had 6-7 20 goal scorers in front of him would he and his team make playoffs?

Do you realize that Flyers had 4 30 goal scorers? 6 20 goal scorer and one 40 goal scorer and Briere was freaking injured all season long while Giroux spent half of the seasin in AHL...

Get real.

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06-08-2009, 10:58 PM
  #69
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could you imagine how good this team could be without a salary cap?

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Old
06-08-2009, 11:03 PM
  #70
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Everyone is putting Coburn with Timonen. I'm telling you right now, to start the season, if we get jbo, it will be

Timonen-Bouwmeester
Coburn-xxx
xxx-xxx

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06-08-2009, 11:05 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xV Carter 17 Xv View Post
I've said this once and I'll say it again.


From what I remember, J bou was pretty much not a factor in the panthers attempt to get into the playoffs...

so what has he done lately..?
That's a dumb reason to not want Bouwmeester. Really dumb. I'll be honest-- I didn't really see any Panthers games down the stretch. But the idea that Bouwmeester didn't help them enough to get into the playoffs is ridiculous. Even if he didn't look fantastic, I'm sure it's got something to do with playing nearly 25 minutes a night all year with nearly no help. But, I'm willing to bet he looked just like average Jay out there (which isn't anything to sneeze at) and people were angry he didn't literally pick up the entire rest of the team, lead them into the offensive zone on-sides, help them put the puck into the net like a dad helps his kid learning to swing a baseball bat, and then go back down into his own zone to stop the other team.

The guy's a world-****in-class defender. He'd improve this team-- and not just his defensive partner or the defense-- he'd help the entire ****ing team.

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06-08-2009, 11:08 PM
  #72
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1st, Homer has said that he intends to seriously upgrade the defense. We now have reports that the team is targeting J-bo. Lets assume the 2 are correct and everything goes as plans. TRADE AND DEAL: To Fla - Matt Carle (solid 2nd line puck moving dman capable of QB'ing the PP); To Phi - rights to J-Bo and 2009 2nd or 3rd (Carle is probably wirth more than just his rights), Flyers resign Boumeester to a 6 year/40 mil deal (6.67 mil per year ave).
Why does Florida want Carle? He has had 2 average years since his rookie breakout season. If Florida were interested in him I dont see you getting a 2nd or 3rd as part of deal as Panthers know you are trying to move salary to get Boumeester signed. Thus they have the leverage. There are also cheaper options on market that put up better or equal production as him such as James Wisniewski or a more established veteran such as Mattias Ohlund

Quote:
2nd, trade Lupul to Minny for Harding and 2009 3rd. Yes I know everybody has been saying that it would be the Flyers sending the pick to Minny but lets be honest, Lupul is established and Harding isn't, history of recent trades shows that Lupul has more value than Harding in a trade. We can argue this point later if anyone wants.
Lupul's high cap hit kill his trade value. I expect that Minnesota will want at least a prospect going back with Lupul and would refuse to give up assets along with Harding. Oilers are expected to make a strong push for Harding and will more likely give up better assets. Plus Wild have shown they do trade within there division in past.

Quote:
3rd, there have been serious rumors of the Kings, Habs and Leafs being interested in Briere to be their top line center. Trade him to one for a 3rd line player and a 2nd rnd pick in 2010.
Briere balked at going to Montreal as a FA why would he go now? And Would he waive his no trade clause to go to any of those teams? Plus I dont see Brian Burke as having interest in a guy like Briere to be his #1 C.

Quote:
4th, sign Phalsson to a 2 year, 4 mil deal (2 mil/season). He'd be great as a 3rd line center who wins faceoffs. I think that 2 mil per year would be at the upper end of the offers he'll get.
That could happen!

Quote:
5th, resign Knuble for 2 years, 4 mil.
That could happen, although I think Khuble could draw a good amount of interest in FA market.

Quote:
6th, resign Alberts to 2 years, 3.5 mil (1.75 mil per year).
That could happen.

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06-08-2009, 11:09 PM
  #73
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not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/phi090608a.html




Made me so happy I will copy paste the whole thing. Bouwmeester is exactly what this club needs.

Trade Carle and Lupul, waive Jones. This is doable!

Timonen Coburn
Bouwmeester Sbisa
Parent Alberts/Vaananen/ anyone else for 1M a year.

I hope Homer will get it done.
NO team will take Carle or Lupul contract. Forget about it.

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06-08-2009, 11:23 PM
  #74
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Great news but here is the ONE THING I am nervous about.

We NEED to get rid of Lupul Jones and Carle BEFORE July 1st. BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE!!!!!!!

If we go on July 1st and make a bid for JBo, and he ends up signing with us, that puts us WAY over the max for the cap. This means we will be FORCED to trade those 3 players or do what you want with them, but we will NEED to move them.


Here is the kicker.

The other teams in the league will know that we are knee deep in **** when it comes to the salary cap issue and we are gonna move guys like that for terrible packages. Teams know we will need to get rid of salary and they will give us crap for some decent players, that being Lupul and Carle.

In my opinion, I think we are screwed in terms of returns that we get for those type of players, unless Homer does something incredible before July 1st. This is getting me a bit nervous.

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Old
06-08-2009, 11:35 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xV Carter 17 Xv View Post
I've said this once and I'll say it again.


From what I remember, J bou was pretty much not a factor in the panthers attempt to get into the playoffs...

so what has he done lately..?
The Panthers were in contention right at the deadline. Which is one of the reasons why Florida blinked at the deadline and held onto him. Of course after the deadline their season went south. They stopped scoring goals. That was the biggest problem for them. Not sure Bouwmeester was totally at fault for Florida going south after the trade deadline.

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