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Stamkos+ for NYI pick

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Old
06-09-2009, 11:16 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Well some people can't read but either way Stamkos will be better than Tavares so Tampa having to give up ANYTHING is just silly.
Still remains to be seen...

Here are my reasonable projections of both players in their prime:

Stamkos: 40g 60a 100p
Tavares: 55g 50a 105p

The stats above are very raw and don't tell you much, but it's just a range I think they'd be in if they meet their FULL potential.

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06-09-2009, 11:24 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Isles, no offence, but I think your judgement is getting a bit clouded here. You have no reason to say Stamkos hasn't proven anything. Sure, his stat line isn't that impressive, but all it took was a look at a few games to see that this kid is the real deal. I can't say enough good things about Stamkos. Kyle Okposo really has nothing to do with this, but I disagree. Stamkos, in the second half of the year, had an impact beyond what he was putting up on the scoresheet. There's times where it seems that kid is everywhere on the ice at the same time. And really, even if we accept what you're saying, there's no shame in getting outplayed by Kyle Okposo.

I have a feeling you might regret investing so much time going to bat for Tavares if Snow takes Hedman first overall.
buddy you can say anything and i trust you so no worries there. my honest opinion in is that Snow is doing this just to give Brian a lesson and to see what happens if Tampa offers to move up. im more afraid that Duchene will be chosen than I am Hedman will be.

Stamkos is good but people are knocking this kid to hell and back and he's gonna have a mighty big chip on his shoulder.he deserves to have his opportunity. Brian Burke didnt just talk for nothing. you have yourself a great GM. Brian wouldnt put his rep on the line if Tavares wasnt the real deal. take it for what its worth. I may just know him in passing but what I saw tells me all I need to know.for Brian to do what he did....Tavares is definitely that good

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06-09-2009, 11:31 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
see i knew the excuses would be flying. I was just making a point that Stamkos has proven nothing. let him do something before annointing him
It's not an excuse, it's a fact. There's a reason why so few 18 year olds struggle in the league. It takes time to develop for most and Stamkos had to go through a process of learning the pro game as well as getting stronger. Once he did he had a great 2nd half and he showed why he was the top pick.

Quote:
Kyle Okposo was just as good as Stamkos when you account for the offensive context of where and who they played with.
Okposo is also two years older and had two seasons in college along with some time in the AHL before becoming a full time NHL player. And like Stamkos he struggled his first few months in the NHL before getting better with experience in the 2nd half of the season.

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06-09-2009, 11:37 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Brian wouldnt put his rep on the line if Tavares wasnt the real deal. take it for what its worth. I may just know him in passing but what I saw tells me all I need to know.for Brian to do what he did....Tavares is definitely that good
Yeah, you might be right. He obviously has no problem with Tavares' skating. Speed means a lot to me though, so I'm always going to prefer a player in the Stamkos mold over a player like Tavares. Its just a perspective thing.

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06-09-2009, 11:46 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
It's not an excuse, it's a fact. There's a reason why so few 18 year olds struggle in the league. It takes time to develop for most and Stamkos had to go through a process of learning the pro game as well as getting stronger. Once he did he had a great 2nd half and he showed why he was the top pick.
The unrealistic expectations people had on this kid were just ridiculous. Personally, I thought his entire rookie season (even the first half) was superb.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
I
Okposo is also two years older and had two seasons in college along with some time in the AHL before becoming a full time NHL player. And like Stamkos he struggled his first few months in the NHL before getting better with experience in the 2nd half of the season.
Okposo had one full season in college, and only a handful of games in the AHL. In fact, Stamkos had a chance to develop at a much higher level of competition than Okposo (CHL vs. North American Junior/NCAA).

The age difference is very significant though. In terms of physical maturity, 20 vs. 18 is huge.

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06-09-2009, 11:49 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafsGetTavares View Post
To the NYI: Steven Stamkos, 2009 2nd round pick (TB)

To TBL:NYI 1st round pick 2009

What do you guys think?
I think thaty neither team even considers it.

Not trying to be cruel, but it's what I believe.

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06-09-2009, 08:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Alex check your stats Tavares was better at 15 and 16 than Stamkos was at 16 and 17...
And since neither of them are 15 or 16 any more, there really isn't any importance to those numbers. People age and mature differently. Plus they have different styles. Both of their bodies have changed dramatically since they were that age. Michael Jordan couldn't make his high school basketball team when he was 15, I'm pretty sure.

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06-09-2009, 08:51 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
And since neither of them are 15 or 16 any more, there really isn't any importance to those numbers. People age and mature differently. Plus they have different styles. Both of their bodies have changed dramatically since they were that age. Michael Jordan couldn't make his high school basketball team when he was 15, I'm pretty sure.
the point which obviously escaped you is that Tavares was better then and could easily be that much better in the NHL

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06-09-2009, 10:24 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
Michael Jordan couldn't make his high school basketball team when he was 15, I'm pretty sure.
He couldn't beat out Leroy Smith, that led to Jordan being the greatest of all time.


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06-10-2009, 03:06 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
the point which obviously escaped you is that Tavares was better then and could easily be that much better in the NHL
Or he could be better then but worse now.

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06-10-2009, 11:22 PM
  #86
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if anything they should try and get that pick without using stamkos in the deal

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06-11-2009, 05:58 AM
  #87
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if anything they should try and get that pick without using stamkos in the deal
Its not going to happen, and I'm one of the few lightning fans that want Tavaras more than Hedman. Either way its a win win deal for us, and the Isles would be dumb to give up that 1st overall pick without Stammer going the other way. I like Tavaras, I really do but I honestly see alot of Steve-Y in Stamkos. For that reason alone, hes not going anywhere. Period.

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06-11-2009, 06:40 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Burt the Dog View Post
I'll go out on a limb here:

Not only will Tavares best Stamkos' rookie season (23G, 23A) ...

He will also best Stamkos offensively THIS season. (*barring injury)


If Tavares isn't better than Stamkos, I'll drink a litre of raw sewage. Mark my words.

I predict at least 70 points from Tavares.
Marked. I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of money that Stamkos will out point Tavares in the 09-10 season.

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06-11-2009, 09:47 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by CrosbyCrosby View Post
could be. stamkos has proven he's the real deal.
ill hold off on saying hes the real deal based on 3 months of very solid hockey. Im not saying he wont be, but you cant say that about every player who had a solid second half of a season.

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06-11-2009, 12:02 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Marked. I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of money that Stamkos will out point Tavares in the 09-10 season.
hope you have enough to spare. because Tavares has been better every step of the way. The thing is youre not gambling much because Tampa has a much stronger offensive context. so Stamkos by all rights should do better

The Isles had no 20 goal scorers. and no forwards with even 40 points while Tampa had 4 and 6 respectively. Tavares out played Stamkos on every level they've both played at and at a younger age. and this year Tavares will out play Stamkos rookie year as well.

the fact is the next time Stamkos out performs Tavares will be the first time so why would anyone with a brain think Stamkos is better is beyond rationale. Why just because Stamkos has had an opportunity to play in the NHL while Tavares hasnt?

The OHL changed rules to add a Tavares they didnt for Stamkos... Why because Stamkos wasnt good enough


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06-11-2009, 12:05 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafsGetTavares View Post
To the NYI: Steven Stamkos, 2009 2nd round pick (TB)

To TBL:NYI 1st round pick 2009

What do you guys think?
Why? Wouldn't it make more sense for Tampa to just move up if NYI is willing to listen?

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06-11-2009, 07:22 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
the point which obviously escaped you is that Tavares was better then and could easily be that much better in the NHL
No, clearly the point escaped you. I didn't say who could or would be better. I said that human bodies (and minds) mature differently. So what they did or didn't do at 15, 16 or 17 isn't a flawless indicator of what they'll be at 22, 23 or 24. You are presenting stats as undisputable evidence to support your point and they aren't. They give you evidence, but by themselves prove nada. Do we really need to start a list of players who produced huge numbers in the CHL and did squat in the AHL, let alone the NHL? And before you freak, I'm not suggesting that for Tavares. I really don't care who Tampa drafts as they'll both be good in all probability.

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06-11-2009, 07:42 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
No, clearly the point escaped you. I didn't say who could or would be better. I said that human bodies (and minds) mature differently. So what they did or didn't do at 15, 16 or 17 isn't a flawless indicator of what they'll be at 22, 23 or 24. You are presenting stats as undisputable evidence to support your point and they aren't. They give you evidence, but by themselves prove nada. Do we really need to start a list of players who produced huge numbers in the CHL and did squat in the AHL, let alone the NHL? And before you freak, I'm not suggesting that for Tavares. I really don't care who Tampa drafts as they'll both be good in all probability.
You could make that list but it probably wouldn't include any that have never really had a scoring slump in four years. Tavares is going to produce .....that said Stamkos will too and is a much better skater and potential all round player.
This is really a Stamkos vs Tavares thread and that won't be answered for a bunch of years.

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06-11-2009, 07:51 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
No, clearly the point escaped you. I didn't say who could or would be better. I said that human bodies (and minds) mature differently. So what they did or didn't do at 15, 16 or 17 isn't a flawless indicator of what they'll be at 22, 23 or 24. You are presenting stats as undisputable evidence to support your point and they aren't. They give you evidence, but by themselves prove nada. Do we really need to start a list of players who produced huge numbers in the CHL and did squat in the AHL, let alone the NHL? And before you freak, I'm not suggesting that for Tavares. I really don't care who Tampa drafts as they'll both be good in all probability.
yes but what you dont understand is that can be said for anyone or do you always use the obvious truisms to answer evidence? Its like my saying to you that Stamkos could be struck dead by lighting and never play again..... it could happen but it isnt likely to happen. The fact that Tavares has outplayed Stamkos in every league they have both played in and done it at a younger age empirically suggests that he has the capability to do it again. will he only time will tell but considering offensive contexts they play in Stamkos was disappointing this year

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06-11-2009, 09:37 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
yes but what you dont understand is that can be said for anyone or do you always use the obvious truisms to answer evidence? Its like my saying to you that Stamkos could be struck dead by lighting and never play again..... it could happen but it isnt likely to happen. The fact that Tavares has outplayed Stamkos in every league they have both played in and done it at a younger age empirically suggests that he has the capability to do it again. will he only time will tell but considering offensive contexts they play in Stamkos was disappointing this year
Again, you are not getting it conceptually. What I said is simple common sense. People age differently, especially as teenagers. That's a biological fact. It COULD severely impact your comparison. What I'm suggesting is not a big reach. Certainly not like saying someone COULD be hit by lightning.

And your last line was not needed. You shouldn't have to resort to slamming a player to make your favorite look better.

Man, won't you be hating life if the Isle's take Hedman?

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06-11-2009, 09:51 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by leafmon View Post
You could make that list but it probably wouldn't include any that have never really had a scoring slump in four years. Tavares is going to produce .....that said Stamkos will too and is a much better skater and potential all round player.
This is really a Stamkos vs Tavares thread and that won't be answered for a bunch of years.
Never said Tavares wouldn't produce. In fact I said, "I'm not saying that about Tavares", I was only illustrating that CHL numbers alone don't always translate to the NHL. Although, I guessing big time scorers in the NHL rarely put up bad numbers in the CHL, if that's where they came from. I'll be more then happy to see Tampa draft Tavares should the Isle's make highly unlikely pick of Hedman. But I agree with everything else you said.

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06-11-2009, 09:54 PM
  #97
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Tavares = the next Daigle.

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06-11-2009, 10:10 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I think thaty neither team even considers it.

Not trying to be cruel, but it's what I believe.
I would seriously think of Stamkos straight up for the first pick, the 2nd rounder would make me definantly say yes. It's a simple case if You think Stamkos is better then Tavares or Hedman do it, else don't.

IF the Islanders can get the 2nd rounder to switch picks in the draft I would do it

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06-12-2009, 02:09 AM
  #99
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I actually think it would be the Isles, not Bolts, who would have to add. Flame me if you must, but I think Tavares and our 2010 first would be about fair value for Stamkos.

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