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Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI

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06-09-2009, 02:51 PM
  #1
LadyStanley
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Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI

Welcome to part 6

Previous thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=647882


Court documents thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=640482

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06-09-2009, 02:52 PM
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Just a reminder.

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Mod Note: We are getting really tired of just editing and deleting posts. Consider this your warning that we've had enough of the personal attacks, as articulate and veiled as some of them may be, they are still flaming, bashing, and generalizations intended to demean or insult an individual or group. Please desist. Any questions/comments about this should be handled by PM only. Thank you.

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06-09-2009, 03:41 PM
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Balsillie's nonsense about "make it 7 CANADA" instead of "I want a team in Hamilton but I'm going to make it about Canada vs U.S. to get popular support" is pretty amusing

Winnipeg could be a solution to this problem...but apparently it's not a good enough part of Canada for Mr. Balsillie?

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06-09-2009, 03:42 PM
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http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Sports/H...9/9741506.html

Quote:
By STEVE SIMMONS, Sun Media


PHOENIX - The judge presiding over the bankruptcy case of the Phoenix Coyotes has called the relocation fees payable to the Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres as the "ultimate test" in Jim Ballillie's attempt to move the Coyotes to Hamilton.

Judge Redfield T. Baum said today that the transfer payment issue must be resolved in order to protect the creditors' best interests in Balsillie's $212.5 million US offer to purchase and move the Coyotes. Balsillie's lawyer Susan Freeman indicated the NHL would charge upwards of $100 million for relocation and indemnification fees.
Balsillie thought he'd get off with no payments. The 2 territory holders want over 100 million. I think He'll bail. I doubt the teams lower the fee.

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06-09-2009, 03:43 PM
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We really missed an opportunity to call the second thread "Balsillie/Phoenix 2: Electric Boogaloo"

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06-09-2009, 03:44 PM
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I suspect we're in for a long afternoon. Waiting for judge to finish another case before continuing Moyes hearing.

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06-09-2009, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Dog View Post
Balsillie thought he'd get off with no payments. The 2 territory holders want over 100 million. I think He'll bail. I doubt the teams lower the fee.
If anything, it seems like the payments to Buffalo and Toronto (combined) would exceed $100m if the consensus of the forum is to be believed.

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06-09-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Dog View Post
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Sports/H...9/9741506.html



Balsillie thought he'd get off with no payments. The 2 territory holders want over 100 million. I think He'll bail. I doubt the teams lower the fee.
Hell, i think it would be higher to be honest.

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06-09-2009, 03:45 PM
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Now that the Judge has asked for mediation on the amount of the compensation for moving to Hamilton to I suppose Toronto and Buffalo, how much should it be?

Apparently, the league has indicated at 100m. Also, consider how does the split work, is it more to Toronto than Buffalo or is it 50-50.

My thinking is even if the League and Balsillie come to an agreement that satisfies the Judge that Balsillie will fight it in court again at a later date (if he can, I don't know much about Law).

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06-09-2009, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Chileiceman View Post
I don't think that all or even most Ontario Sabre fans will just jump ship and become Hamilton fans. It's called loyalty.
Right, but you're talking about a long-tenure stay. If one percent of Sabres fans are would-be Hamilton fans, at $40 a ticket, it's $3.2 million a year the Sabres lose. Which doesn't seem like much. Even $3.2 million over 30 years is less than a $100 million fee (not counting any inflation! ha!)

Consider that the Islanders have been in the NY Rangers market for 37 years, are locked in another seven and could be there for another 100. Every single NY Islanders fan EVER probably would be a Rangers fan if the Isles never came along. I've spent thousands on the Islanders in my life, and I didn't exist in 1972 when the Islanders paid a $4 million fee.

You are talking about generations of fans. Sure, some loyal fans in Canada have always rooted for the Sabres, and still will.

But what about their kids? A 20-year old in St Catherine's sticks with the Sabres, makes a trip there a year and buys a ticket.
In 10 years his son becomes a Hamilton fan, now for Christmas, they give the kid a Hamilton sweater instead of Sabres sweater. They make one trip a year, but now it to Hamilton instead of Buffalo.

They will feel the impact for generations.

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06-09-2009, 03:47 PM
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We all know what Balsillie will likely do if he loses this case... he'll likely just keep pugging along looking for the next possibility of landing a team for Hamilton. But what about the League? What ideas do you guys have with regards to the League's next move if somehow they lose this? What do you think is their backup plan?

In fact, does anyone think that it's possible that the League might have a group secretly waiting in the wings that will come forward and present an offer to move the Coyotes to Kansas City?

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06-09-2009, 03:47 PM
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Btw, a lot of posts and twitters have said the relocation fee would be $100m, I'm pretty sure the redacted NHL filing said that was a minimum estimate, not the expected amount.

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06-09-2009, 03:50 PM
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Yeah looks like the NHL is wanting a $100 million dollar fee. Here is the link:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/647795

So this is obviously not as much as most posters thought on here.

If Balsillie agreed he would be paying $100 mil + $212.5 plus the $5 million or so he said he'd put into the arena upgrades.

So around $317.5 million for a team in Hamilton. I'd say this is reasonable.

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06-09-2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Btw, a lot of posts and twitters have said the relocation fee would be $100m, I'm pretty sure the redacted NHL filing said that was a minimum estimate, not the expected amount.
Thanks, I was really curious why the NHL would throw out an exact number which seems low all things considered.

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06-09-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Dog View Post
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Sports/H...9/9741506.html



Balsillie thought he'd get off with no payments. The 2 territory holders want over 100 million. I think He'll bail. I doubt the teams lower the fee.
If they ask for 100 million good god whats that tell us greedy actions that ended up creating the mess we watched unfold today and if Buffalo cant support a team without Canadas help maybe Bettman should have dealt with his franchises in life jackets before this all came along i have no time left for canadian dollars proping up losing teams south of us , if they had done the same 12 yrs ago we still have Winnipeg and QC where were Sabres fans then, certainly not saying lets help keep teams where they are . this is about knowing we like hockey and wanting our money thats it and with new cross border rules they were about to lose #s anyways and now loyal canadians may say no way anyways .

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06-09-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Btw, a lot of posts and twitters have said the relocation fee would be $100m, I'm pretty sure the redacted NHL filing said that was a minimum estimate, not the expected amount.
Is that total, or for each team?

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06-09-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
We all know what Balsillie will likely do if he loses this case... he'll likely just keep pugging along looking for the next possibility of landing a team for Hamilton. But what about the League? What ideas do you guys have with regards to the League's next move if somehow they lose this? What do you think is their backup plan?

In fact, does anyone think that it's possible that the League might have a group secretly waiting in the wings that will come forward and present an offer to move the Coyotes to Kansas City?

Interesting if the League wins as well. How long will they operate a loss in Phoenix and if a massive relocation fee comes with any movement of a team then wouldn't the team be stuck in Phoenix indefinitely?

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06-09-2009, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
We all know what Balsillie will likely do if he loses this case... he'll likely just keep pugging along looking for the next possibility of landing a team for Hamilton. But what about the League? What ideas do you guys have with regards to the League's next move if somehow they lose this? What do you think is their backup plan?

In fact, does anyone think that it's possible that the League might have a group secretly waiting in the wings that will come forward and present an offer to move the Coyotes to Kansas City?
i can just see Bettman as teh drum roll starts - and heres Bootsy

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06-09-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
Right, but you're talking about a long-tenure stay. If one percent of Sabres fans are would-be Hamilton fans, at $40 a ticket, it's $3.2 million a year the Sabres lose. Which doesn't seem like much. Even $3.2 million over 30 years is less than a $100 million fee (not counting any inflation! ha!)

Consider that the Islanders have been in the NY Rangers market for 37 years, are locked in another seven and could be there for another 100. Every single NY Islanders fan EVER probably would be a Rangers fan if the Isles never came along. I've spent thousands on the Islanders in my life, and I didn't exist in 1972 when the Islanders paid a $4 million fee.

You are talking about generations of fans. Sure, some loyal fans in Canada have always rooted for the Sabres, and still will.

But what about their kids? A 20-year old in St Catherine's sticks with the Sabres, makes a trip there a year and buys a ticket.
In 10 years his son becomes a Hamilton fan, now for Christmas, they give the kid a Hamilton sweater instead of Sabres sweater. They make one trip a year, but now it to Hamilton instead of Buffalo.

They will feel the impact for generations.
How?

Assuming 95% attendance thats about 17,750 a game. One percent is 178 per game.
$40 per ticket (high by the way) is $7,120 per game. 41 games is $291,920 per year. Not exactly mind blowing. I believe you are calculating 10% of fans not showing up.

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06-09-2009, 03:54 PM
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100 million is nothing, you can't even get a Ovechkin for that.

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06-09-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
Right, but you're talking about a long-tenure stay. If one percent of Sabres fans are would-be Hamilton fans, at $40 a ticket, it's $3.2 million a year the Sabres lose. Which doesn't seem like much. Even $3.2 million over 30 years is less than a $100 million fee (not counting any inflation! ha!)

Consider that the Islanders have been in the NY Rangers market for 37 years, are locked in another seven and could be there for another 100. Every single NY Islanders fan EVER probably would be a Rangers fan if the Isles never came along. I've spent thousands on the Islanders in my life, and I didn't exist in 1972 when the Islanders paid a $4 million fee.

You are talking about generations of fans. Sure, some loyal fans in Canada have always rooted for the Sabres, and still will.

But what about their kids? A 20-year old in St Catherine's sticks with the Sabres, makes a trip there a year and buys a ticket.
In 10 years his son becomes a Hamilton fan, now for Christmas, they give the kid a Hamilton sweater instead of Sabres sweater. They make one trip a year, but now it to Hamilton instead of Buffalo.

They will feel the impact for generations.
This may be the case but you are making a big assumption that the Sabres are not going to be able to recoup those fans with other Sabres fans.

Who is to say that in 10 years time that there is such a rivalry between Hamilton and Buffalo that all kids on the Buffalo side are now Sabres fans and all kids on the Ontrario side up to Hamilton are Hamilton fans. This is what it is like in Toronto and Montreal. Heck, this is what happens for Toronto and Sabres now too. This translates into more Sabres fans in the future just because of the rivalry.

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06-09-2009, 03:54 PM
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CBC live blog summary of this morning

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbctom
After over three hours of arguments, here’s the view from here.

Baum seemed to dismiss the idea that all pro sports would be in chaos if the Coyotes were allowed to relocate.

But he also liked the fact the NHL was prepared to pay the team's bills until a buyer in Phoenix is found.

He also questioned the league’s contention it has 4 groups interested in buying the team and keeping it in Phoenix.

Baum said he has a stack of legal papers 10-feet tall but only one real offer.

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06-09-2009, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyScholar View Post
Yeah looks like the NHL is wanting a $100 million dollar fee. Here is the link:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/647795

So this is obviously not as much as most posters thought on here.

If Balsillie agreed he would be paying $100 mil + $212.5 plus the $5 million or so he said he'd put into the arena upgrades.

So around $317.5 million for a team in Hamilton. I'd say this is reasonable.

In which Balsillie probably anticipated from Day 1!

Also, I believe Judge Baum said that the relocation fees also had to be reasonable. If they ended being 100,000,000 per team it may be enough to really send him off into a hissyfit nd who knows how long this gets protracted out.
I sense that both parties will give and take and a resolution will happen a lot sooner than later!

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06-09-2009, 03:56 PM
  #24
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What happens if the NHL wins this case and regains control of the Coyotes and then moves the team anyways to KC, LV or Winnipeg? Is there anything Balsillie can do about that?

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06-09-2009, 03:56 PM
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Interesting if the League wins as well. How long will they operate a loss in Phoenix and if a massive relocation fee comes with any movement of a team then wouldn't the team be stuck in Phoenix indefinitely?
Its pretty obvious Bettman dosnt care about who loses in Phoenix though hes more worried about leafland being pacified it seems now .And what if they run 2 yrs and he moves them to sat KC without a 200 million relocation fee i see JB suing to own the whole league hed have the right because they would have different rules for different owners then so they have tied themselves to a pole here now

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