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Andrei Kostitsyn to finally get 1st line minutes?

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Old
06-09-2009, 05:57 PM
  #76
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by grant1r View Post
Kovalev is in the top 200 NHL points per game of all time, tied at 151 with Ray Whitney with .818!

Enough said. The more Kovalev is on the ice, the less goals will enter, the more of a chance they will go in. Andrei Kostitsyn cannot do this. That is why Bob Gainey gave him less ice time. Its pretty simple if you ask me.
Yea..if only we lived in a life where AGE has 0 effect on anything.

Gretzky has the most pts of all time and has a 1.92 pt/gp ratio, we should get him back from retirement!

Or if not, we should go after Jagr, he has a 1.26pt/gp.

A.Kost is a youngster. You compare the point total of a sophomore to the one of a 16-17 year veteran. Way to go buddy

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06-09-2009, 06:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yea..if only we lived in a life where AGE has 0 effect on anything.

Gretzky has the most pts of all time and has a 1.92 pt/gp ratio, we should get him back from retirement!

Or if not, we should go after Jagr, he has a 1.26pt/gp.

A.Kost is a youngster. You compare the point total of a sophomore to the one of a 16-17 year veteran. Way to go buddy
Kovalev scored over 80 points in 2007-08, this year he scores 65 after a very rough first half of the season. He hasn't aged to the point where he is ineffective. Kovalev is in good enough shape to handle over 20 minutes a game and if he is signed this year, that is what he will be playing.

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06-09-2009, 06:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why does that mean a lottery pick exactly?..
What if his linemates are Lecavalier and Tanguay (wishful thinking but who knows! )?..does this mean lottery pick too?

25G and 23G while respectively getting 15:41 and 15:35 min of ice time these past 2 years is pretty deserving to me.

What is he supposed to do exactly??..score 40Goals before ''earning'' top line minutes??
Be more consistent??..yea, so does 99% of players in this league.

This kid has proved he can score goals. He's shown the potential to get 30 and possibly even 40ish Goals. To me, that's enough to give him a fair shot at it.

Kovalev was once again our top RW last year and he had 26G. That's 3 more than A.Kost while playing 4minutes more per game (2.5 min more if you remove PK). Let's not forget that many consider the sophomore year of A.Kost a horrible one.

If we're going to fight for an 8th PO entry, I prefer doing it with A.Kost than Kovalev.

He deserves a shot of getting top line minutes.

18min for Kovy is still too much.
Well it's not deserving enough if Kovy is still around. Sorry. Kovalev wasn't only our top RW last year, he led the team in points (again) and goals (again). And if you consider Akost's year a down year, you'll have to grant Kovalev the same excuse.

Whether you like it or not, Kovy is still a 1st line player. He might not be able to carry his line 82 games out of the year but he's more of a threat to put points up than Kostitsyn is at this point in time. Lets see Akost get himself 60 points with 16-17 minutes in ice-time and maybe in 2010-2011 he'll of earned the right to ride shotgun on our first line. As of now he's a guy who finished off the last 23 games of the season with only 4 points and played very uninspired hockey. Sure, he wasn't the only one... but he's the one we're talking about giving a first line spot to.

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06-09-2009, 06:31 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by grant1r View Post
Kovalev scored over 80 points in 2007-08, this year he scores 65 after a very rough first half of the season. He hasn't aged to the point where he is ineffective. Kovalev is in good enough shape to handle over 20 minutes a game and if he is signed this year, that is what he will be playing.
He sure proved he was in good enough shape this season by being sent home by Gainey and not playing well until paired with Koivu/Tanguay.

Kostitsyn had a horrible season and scored 23G (3less than Kovy) while playing 4min less per game.

Kovalev should not be our primary forward. The man is 36 and will be turning 37 during the next season. His role should no longer be the one of primary star on his team.
What's next..put Lang as 1st line center??

We have a bunch of youngsters, it's time we put them on the front lines. If they don't show up and we have to resort to playing Kovalev 19Min again, so be it.
But in no way should that be our strategy today looking forward into next year.

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06-09-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigDarby View Post
Well it's not deserving enough if Kovy is still around. Sorry. Kovalev wasn't only our top RW last year, he led the team in points (again) and goals (again). And if you consider Akost's year a down year, you'll have to grant Kovalev the same excuse.

Whether you like it or not, Kovy is still a 1st line player. He might not be able to carry his line 82 games out of the year but he's more of a threat to put points up than Kostitsyn is at this point in time. Lets see Akost get himself 60 points with 16-17 minutes in ice-time and maybe in 2010-2011 he'll of earned the right to ride shotgun on our first line. As of now he's a guy who finished off the last 23 games of the season with only 4 points and played very uninspired hockey. Sure, he wasn't the only one... but he's the one we're talking about giving a first line spot to.
Kovalev put up 65pts playing just under 20min. How is he deserving exactly??..Oh because he had 1 good season out of 3 over the past 3years??

Kovalev lead the team in pts. Great, he had 1 pt more than Markov.
He also started playing well when paired with Koivu and Tanguay.
Plekanec was the most disappointing player of the season.

A.Kost was productive when he was placed with Koivu/D'Ago and with Lang/S.Kost. With Plek, he was very unproductive except a 2-3game stint with him and MaxPac.

A.Kost, just like Kovalev, won't be able to carry their line if their Center is just out of touch.

Find me one 36-37year old holding THE primary spot on his team?

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06-09-2009, 07:13 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
We have a bunch of youngsters, it's time we put them on the front lines. If they don't show up and we have to resort to playing Kovalev 19Min again, so be it.
But in no way should that be our strategy today looking forward into next year.
I cannot disagree with you on this one, except that Andrei had his best season as a left wing on a line with Plekanec and Kovalev. Gainey put a big role on Kostitsyn, Plekanec and Kovalev to continue the work they had been doing and progress. Instead of progression, they looked incompatible with one another and none of them had the season they did the year before. This doesn't mean that Kovalev is to blame for Kostitsyn's bad season, nor vice versa.

I think that Kostitsyn will be played again next season in the top two lines (as either a left or right winger). If Andrei is playing right wing and he out produces Kovalev, well then he earns his spot. If not, well at least Kovalev, even on a bad season, scores between 50-70 points. Until that time comes, Andrei Kostitsyn is undeserving of more game time than Kovalev.

If you play the game of numbers with regards to points per ice time, Kovalev played the extra minutes on the penalty kill for the most of the season because he is more defensively responsible. Andrei Kostitsyn isn't as good on the PK as Kovalev is, so Kovalev did the job with Plekanec. On the powerplay last year, our three most effective and essential players were Markov, Schneider and Kovalev.

Andrei scored 23 goals in a couple of very short hot streaks. Kovalev scored his points slowly, without ever having a hot streak, until after his break when he was lined up with Koivu and Tanguay. Kovalev is far more of a consistent hockey player.

Anyways, this is futile and I think we both know that if both Kovalev and Kostitsyn have great seasons next year, the team will do very well because they are our two main goal scoring forwards.


Last edited by kovalost27: 06-09-2009 at 07:21 PM.
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06-09-2009, 07:24 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Kovalev put up 65pts playing just under 20min. How is he deserving exactly??..Oh because he had 1 good season out of 3 over the past 3years??

Kovalev lead the team in pts. Great, he had 1 pt more than Markov.
He also started playing well when paired with Koivu and Tanguay.
Plekanec was the most disappointing player of the season.

A.Kost was productive when he was placed with Koivu/D'Ago and with Lang/S.Kost. With Plek, he was very unproductive except a 2-3game stint with him and MaxPac.

A.Kost, just like Kovalev, won't be able to carry their line if their Center is just out of touch.

Find me one 36-37year old holding THE primary spot on his team?
You mean the 18 minutes I proposed? Nobody said anything about the primary spot on the team. For this team to even make the playoffs we need two of our go-to players to be at the top of their games; Markov and Price. If we bring in a #1 center that changes everything, but as it stands you're gonna go further with Kovy on your 1st line than with Akost.

Whitney, Alfredsson, and Kozlov come to mind as solid first-line wingers who are up there in age.. but they all need someone else to share the brunt of the load with. Guys like Staal, Heatley/Spezza, and Kovalchuk... guys that Akost can't hold a candle to.

Kovy averaged 1 point every 23 minutes and Akost averaged 1 point every 28 minutes. So even though you've spent hours harping on ice-time, it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Stop finagling with numbers and watch the games. Akost has to earn his first-line ice-time and I guarantee you that if Kovy is brought back he'll be the one with more ice-time per game (unless we add a #1 center). You're fighting a losing battle, pal.

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06-09-2009, 07:48 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CraigDarby View Post
You mean the 18 minutes I proposed? Nobody said anything about the primary spot on the team. For this team to even make the playoffs we need two of our go-to players to be at the top of their games; Markov and Price. If we bring in a #1 center that changes everything, but as it stands you're gonna go further with Kovy on your 1st line than with Akost.
Whitney, Alfredsson, and Kozlov come to mind as solid first-line wingers who are up there in age.. but they all need someone else to share the brunt of the load with. Guys like Staal, Heatley/Spezza, and Kovalchuk... guys that Akost can't hold a candle to.

Kovy averaged 1 point every 23 minutes and Akost averaged 1 point every 28 minutes. So even though you've spent hours harping on ice-time, it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Stop finagling with numbers and watch the games. Akost has to earn his first-line ice-time and I guarantee you that if Kovy is brought back he'll be the one with more ice-time per game (unless we add a #1 center). You're fighting a losing battle, pal.
We know exactly where we're gonna go with Kovalev on our 1st line...1st round, maybe 2nd.

With Kostitsyn, we don't know...we can speculate all day, but really you don't know. Just because he hasn't done it before, doesn't mean he can't do it. And again, Kovalev only managed 3 more goals with way more icetime, and not just icetime in terms of minutes, but 'prime ice time'. You don't know how Kostitsyn would react with more icetime...now I agree with you that it shouldn't just be handed to Kostitsyn, it's a two way street. But it's not out of the realm of possibility to think that with added responsibility, Kostitsyn could respond positively and possibly contribute to the Habs as much, if not more than Kovalev ever has.

Remember, except for an exceptional season (one that I agree, can't be discounted) Kovalev has been a player who averages 50-65pts with the Habs...You really don't think Kostitsyn, with near 20 mins of icetime per game, couldn't reach those numbers? He'd get them just as a by product of being on the ice so much...

I don't know why so many people here think Kovalev is the only forward on the Habs who can score goals and get assists...Get real guys, Kovalev, with no disrespect because I like him alot as a player, will lead the Habs in scoring no matter what as long as he's getting the bulk of the icetime...it's not really complicated...

Take any forward in the Habs top 6 and give him the kind of icetime Kovalev gets, and he'll rack up the same amount of points as Kovalev did last year, give or take.

And you might be right about Kostitsyn...he may never be more than one of those 'generic 2nd line wingers' that are abundant in the NHL. But I think that in the limited icetime he's received, he's shown that he is able to put the puck in the net and I think that the Habs would be wise to try to develop that from Kostitsyn, rather than investing more money/time in Kovalev.

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06-09-2009, 08:11 PM
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Kovalev is a good player...but some of you here act like the Habs losing Kovalev is like the Sens potentially losing Dany Heatley.

Dany Heatley is a proven 40-50 goal scorer, no matter what, you can pencil him in for 40 to 50 goals every year. The Sens, don't have that within their team and it's difficult to acquire that type of player (especially when the one you're trying to trade has a NTC), so if and when the Sens do trade Heatley, they'll have to make sure they're replacing that production.


NO ONE here knows what Kovalev will give you if he's back next year, he could get 80pts or he could get half of that with 40pts, no one knows. So I have trouble understanding how if in some scenario, he wasn't re-signed, his production couldn't be assumed by one or several players given the amount of icetime his departure would create.

The only player the Habs can absolutely not replace...and by 'replace' I mean find a player either from within the organization or without (and realistically), is Andrei Markov...anyone else on the team can be.

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06-09-2009, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
just take a quick look at the Canadiens, 22 year old season vs 2008-2009

Kovalev 58 vs 65
Koivu 56 vs 50
Andrei K 53 vs 41
Tanguay 48 vs 41 ... injured this season though and had a poor year at 22, so you could adjust it with the next couple of seasons
Plekanec 47 vs 39 ... used his season after since he was 22 during the lockout
Higgins 38 vs 23 ... had a good season last year to compensate for this year
Lapierre 18 vs 28 ... played fewer games last year which was his 22 year old season

of course there's more to it than just say pick that 22 year old year and then induce it for all seasons, of course it doesn't end there, but it gives a good idea I find

last year many players were over that mark, just like the year before they might have been under and in the end it kinda evens out, nothing perfect, but can give a general idea of what a player might be worth
So let's take another team's roster as a point of comparison.

Datsyuk - was not in the league at 22, so we'll give you the edge and post his numbers at 24 years old: 35 vs. 97
Zetterberg - 44 vs. 73 (averaging around 80, though)
Hossa - 75 vs 71 (fair)
Franzen - (see Datsyuk) 16 vs. 59
Lidstrom - 60 vs. 59 (fair)
Rafalski - (see Datsyuk) 32 vs. 59
Hudler - 25 vs. 57
Kronwall - 5 vs. 51
Samuelsson - (see Datsyuk) 16 vs. 40
Cleary - 35 vs. 40
Filppula - 17 vs. 40
Holmstrom - (see Datsyuk) 9 vs. 37

So we can end that experiment at this point and tally up the point totals.

22 year olds: 369 points
current production (which consists of few career-years): 684

Now, using similar logic, we may then rightfully believe that Kostitsyn should be regularly scoring 90-ish points.

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06-09-2009, 08:35 PM
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Kovalev is a good player...but some of you here act like the Habs losing Kovalev is like the Sens potentially losing Dany Heatley.

Dany Heatley is a proven 40-50 goal scorer, no matter what, you can pencil him in for 40 to 50 goals every year. The Sens, don't have that within their team and it's difficult to acquire that type of player (especially when the one you're trying to trade has a NTC), so if and when the Sens do trade Heatley, they'll have to make sure they're replacing that production.


NO ONE here knows what Kovalev will give you if he's back next year, he could get 80pts or he could get half of that with 40pts, no one knows. So I have trouble understanding how if in some scenario, he wasn't re-signed, his production couldn't be assumed by one or several players given the amount of icetime his departure would create.

The only player the Habs can absolutely not replace...and by 'replace' I mean find a player either from within the organization or without (and realistically), is Andrei Markov...anyone else on the team can be.
For this discussion to go anywhere, we need to assume that Kovalev will be re-signed. I think he will, a 1 or 2 year deal, at a pretty steep discount. All I'm guaranteeing is that (assuming we don't add a #1 center) Kovalev will receive more ice-time at the start of the season than Akost will unless the latter outperforms the former and earns it.

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06-09-2009, 08:50 PM
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He won't if Kovy comes back or if we *manage* to sign Hossa or Gaborik.

But in the advent of Kovy coming back, its only gonna be 1-2-3 more years before Akost is given the reigns of the first line's RW, so I don't see any problems with that. The true problem would arise if we indeed managed to get one of the two UFAs I mentioned.... then AKost would be stuck on the second line for the next half-decade.

Patience is the key word here.

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06-09-2009, 08:52 PM
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For this discussion to go anywhere, we need to assume that Kovalev will be re-signed. I think he will, a 1 or 2 year deal, at a pretty steep discount. All I'm guaranteeing is that (assuming we don't add a #1 center) Kovalev will receive more ice-time at the start of the season than Akost will unless the latter outperforms the former and earns it.
Fair enough...but let's assume he's not re-signed, do you not think that Akost or another current Habs or even a combination of players, could produce what you could get from Kovalev withouth even necessarily earning it as we both know Kovalev hasn't always earned the icetime he's received? Is that that unreasonable to think it 'could' happen?



And if so...how necessary is it to re-sign him?

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06-09-2009, 09:02 PM
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Yea..if only we lived in a life where AGE has 0 effect on anything.

Gretzky has the most pts of all time and has a 1.92 pt/gp ratio, we should get him back from retirement!

Or if not, we should go after Jagr, he has a 1.26pt/gp.

A.Kost is a youngster. You compare the point total of a sophomore to the one of a 16-17 year veteran. Way to go buddy
An average of 75 points in his last 2 seasons. Damn that old man

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06-10-2009, 03:02 AM
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An average of 75 points in his last 2 seasons. Damn that old man
Yea and 68pts over the last 3 years, just like his career average.


But again, I'm not here to criticize Kovalev, far from it. I'm saying he should get less than 19Min of Ice Time and A.Kost more than 15min.

I don't get why Kovalev should be handed that much Ice Time regardless of how he plays.
He's a veteran so I understand he has less to prove. But I don't see why A.Kost has to get 60ish pts playing 15Min to earn top line minutes, when Kovalev can gather the same total but playing 4min extra per night.

A.Kost is our future more so than Kovalev.

I'm not saying to just give the minutes to A.Kost, I feel they should be spread out among our top 6. If Kovalev plays on a line where all 3 linemates play around 19Min, then fine.

I just don't think our team will have improved if we resort again to playing Kovalev the most. We will never go deep when he's leading all forwards by 2min in ice time.
That's why I hope we'll get to see our youngsters in a more important role next year. I want to see what they're capable off when giving more ice time.
Seeing as JM is known for being good with youngsters, hopefully they'll develop well under him.

We know what to expect if Kovalev and Koivu are the ones carrying this team again next year.

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06-10-2009, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by CraigDarby View Post
.

Kovy averaged 1 point every 23 minutes and Akost averaged 1 point every 28 minutes. So even though you've spent hours harping on ice-time, it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about.
Stop finagling with numbers and watch the games. Akost has to earn his first-line ice-time and I guarantee you that if Kovy is brought back he'll be the one with more ice-time per game (unless we add a #1 center). You're fighting a losing battle, pal.
When you want to be a smartass, you should cover all angles.

Both Kovalev and Kostitsyn pretty much averaged 1pt at every 35min at ES this season.
Last year, Kovalev had 1pt at every 33min at ES, Kostitsyn 1pt every 27min.
Kovalev revived his season after being forced on vacation when he was paired with Tanguay and Koivu.
A.Kost was stuck with a very unproductive center. He was consistently producing with Lang and Koivu at the same pace as last year.

Last season, when both were playing well, A.Kost was more productive at ES than Kovalev yet he played less than him at ES.

So I don't see how Kovalev should get the most Ice time at ES. His spot on the PP is undeniable, but not at Even Strength.

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