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Hitting hurts Canada's talent depth

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Old
06-05-2009, 04:57 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
A good number of them are elite major jr players.Some may not be in the nhl but some maybe.
I don't think you understand what I am talking about. The guys you listed currently would not even make top 500 players in the world. They may be elite junior players but that doesn't translate into the level of national teams. I am talking about the best hockey players in the universe and Canada does not have very many.

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06-05-2009, 05:05 PM
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The way the NHL is going, players wont have to bodycheck anymore someday anyway! Anti Violence Proposers are slowly killing what was once a great game.

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06-05-2009, 05:09 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
I don't think you understand what I am talking about. The guys you listed currently would not even make top 500 players in the world. They may be elite junior players but that doesn't translate into the level of national teams. I am talking about the best hockey players in the universe and Canada does not have very many.
Tavares
Duchene
Kane
Kadri
Schenne

Are all ranked in the top 20 for the 2009 draft.

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06-05-2009, 05:37 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
I think that as of right now Canada does not produce enough of elite talent. If you look past Crosby there are no supreme offensive players coming from Canada and it is surprising considering the amount of young players playing hockey in this country.
It's funny because any objective measure of talent shows that Canada is at the top and always has been. Over the last 30 years there has always been a country who takes a strong second position, first the Soviets, then the Americans, then the Czechs, then the Swedes and now it looks like it will be Russia. The new NHL rules have definitely helped the European players, and with time the North Americans will adjust. If you take the extremely narrow sample of the top 5 - 10 scoring players then it makes the dispersion of talent look much more balanced than it really is. As I have shown before each countries talent and depth follow almost exactly the number of people they have playing the sport.

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06-06-2009, 01:12 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
You're kidding, right. Which of these players is a proven elite player?
Toews ? Staal could have been on his list too.

Canada could send 2 teams to pretty much any hockey tournament and have both teams be very competitive. No other country can do this.

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06-07-2009, 07:20 PM
  #31
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If Canadians wanted to learn something from European hockey, it's not the lack of hitting that they should be incorporating. It's the techniques they use to developp skills like skating, stickhandling and shooting. The kids can hit, there are even leagues where you can play without getting hit, but skills need to be taught better. It doesn't have to do with hitting as much as the lack of proper coaching. That and the system play is killing the fun in hockey, let the kids be creative.

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06-08-2009, 07:50 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
I think that as of right now Canada does not produce enough of elite talent. If you look past Crosby there are no supreme offensive players coming from Canada and it is surprising considering the amount of young players playing hockey in this country.
Canada is the most consistent producer of hockey talent.

That pretty much can't be argued.

Other countries (e.g. Sweden, Russia) rise and fall, but Canada stays relatively steady.

Basically, all of a sudden Russia has a few superstars and so you're taking the opportunity to bash Canada.

But we're a machine for pumping out hockey players and I'm really not that worried.

Am I looking for ways to improve our system? Certainly. But given the number of times Canadian teams have won or made the finals in tournaments at all age levels over the past decade, I'm really not as concerned as you are, apparently.

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06-08-2009, 10:10 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Canada is the most consistent producer of hockey talent.

That pretty much can't be argued.

Other countries (e.g. Sweden, Russia) rise and fall, but Canada stays relatively steady.

Basically, all of a sudden Russia has a few superstars and so you're taking the opportunity to bash Canada.

But we're a machine for pumping out hockey players and I'm really not that worried.

Am I looking for ways to improve our system? Certainly. But given the number of times Canadian teams have won or made the finals in tournaments at all age levels over the past decade, I'm really not as concerned as you are, apparently.

Siberian does have a point though.
Given your ridiculous advantage over European countries in 1. players produced; 2. number of facilities; 3. overall citizens playing the game, you should be dominating the NHL like America does NBA.....but for some reason you can't.
I mean Canada is the only country in the world where hockey is the far and away the clear cut #1 sport.

You can compensate because of numbers produced but, imo, Canada's development system isn't very good. If Canada focused more on skill development, think of all the Sakics and Crosbys you'd be able to produce instead of churning out the seemingly endless parade of Matt Cook type players. You guys would be literally unstoppable.

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06-08-2009, 10:41 AM
  #34
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Europeans (and others) consistently fail to understand how our hockey system is set up.

We're probably one of the few if not the only country in the world that places a MASSIVE emphasis on recreational hockey. An overwhelming majority of our players are not in the competitive stream.

Hockey Canada spends as much time making sure that hockey is a "fun and participatory" sport as they do on the elite stuff.

A lot of our emphasis is on fair play, fun, and acquainting people with the game. A vast number of our players do not play past a certain age.

We do not have the gigantic and well-funded college basketball system to churn out endless numbers of players. Instead, we rely on our junior hockey system, where, again, the elite level is an extremely small part of the whole thing.

Whenever Canadians are asked whether they want money reprofiled towards elite athletes, and away from increasing recreational participation in sport, they are overwhelmingly against it.

Despite what you might think, Hockey Canada's major purpose is to increase individual participation, and not individual skill and success.

I hope this helps clear up your misunderstandings.

I agree that there are elements that can be improved in our system but I've already spoken at length about that in this thread already.

Besides, it requires a great deal of non-success in order for Canadians to be motivated enough to re-examine their system (as we did after Nagano). Since 1998, Canada has been competitive enough for most Canadians not to worry about the state of our hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine
I mean Canada is the only country in the world where hockey is the far and away the clear cut #1 sport.
I think the Finns might argue that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine
You can compensate because of numbers produced but, imo, Canada's development system isn't very good. If Canada focused more on skill development, think of all the Sakics and Crosbys you'd be able to produce instead of churning out the seemingly endless parade of Matt Cook type players. You guys would be literally unstoppable.
Also, consider that changes take time to filter through the system. I think skills are being increasingly emphasized, but you may not see the results for a decade or more.

Despite what Siberian may think, I think Canada has a number of fast, creative and innovative offensive players coming through our system, and every year we seem to come up with a few more (Toews, Tavares, etc.)

You also have to keep in mind that the majority of NHL coaches want to have Matt Cooke type players on their team, and given that Canada and the US seem to be the only countries developing them (that are drafted at least), it gives the impression that Canada can only produce those kinds of players.

Draper and Maltby showed on the international level that they can neutralize the offensive skills of some of the best and the brightest (i.e. Forsberg and Alfredsson back in the WCs in 2003). I'm not totally convinced that a Dream Team will always result in a gold medal.

If that were the case, the WCs in 2000 should have been a slam dunk for the Russians.


Last edited by NyQuil: 06-08-2009 at 10:52 AM.
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06-08-2009, 10:43 AM
  #35
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Siberian does have a point though.
Given your ridiculous advantage over European countries in 1. players produced; 2. number of facilities; 3. overall citizens playing the game, you should be dominating the NHL like America does NBA.....but for some reason you can't.
I mean Canada is the only country in the world where hockey is the far and away the clear cut #1 sport.

You can compensate because of numbers produced but, imo, Canada's development system isn't very good. If Canada focused more on skill development, think of all the Sakics and Crosbys you'd be able to produce instead of churning out the seemingly endless parade of Matt Cook type players. You guys would be literally unstoppable.
There are a good amount of canadians playing in the nhl and some in the the draft this year.If you look at the 10 picks this year 5 out of the top 10 could be canadian.

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06-08-2009, 12:02 PM
  #36
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All you Canadians in this thread are missing the point what I am talking about. I am talking about physical play hurting a lot of kids in a different way, making them quit hockey at young age one way or another as well as not developing certain skills at the young age. You are telling me that basically your system is fine. Well I ddin't make this up, it was suggested to me by a Canadian, who played hockey himself and wanted all his kids play hockey as well. Players like Datsyuk would probably never make it in Canada. Skinny little kid, very late bloomer, he probably would have quit right after exposed to hitting. Or perhaps he could have made it further but he would have never had puckhandling skills that he has now - that is all I am saying.

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06-08-2009, 12:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
All you Canadians in this thread are missing the point what I am talking about. I am talking about physical play hurting a lot of kids in a different way, making them quit hockey at young age one way or another as well as not developing certain skills at the young age. You are telling me that basically your system is fine. Well I ddin't make this up, it was suggested to me by a Canadian, who played hockey himself and wanted all his kids play hockey as well. Players like Datsyuk would probably never make it in Canada. Skinny little kid, very late bloomer, he probably would have quit right after exposed to hitting. Or perhaps he could have made it further but he would have never had puckhandling skills that he has now - that is all I am saying.
No i don't think your making it up at all.I know there are some canadians who don't like the hitting at a young age should it be raised yes.What concerns me is if you raise it in canada at 14 then at 15 some go to jr and play aginst some kids who have been playing contact for 4 or 5 years.No the system is not fine there are issues with it.If you ban hitting under a set age that is a start.But there are other areas that would aslo need fattnetion.While there is no question some kids may walk away because of the hitting.Some may aslo walk away because of the heave schedule in some cases teams are on the ice 4 or 5 days a week.Another big issue is rink rage as i like to call it some parents get really worked up yelling calling kids names in some cases the amount of yelling is really to much.

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06-08-2009, 01:14 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
You are telling me that basically your system is fine.
Umm, I'm Canadian.

Where have I suggested that?

Do you even read?

The fact that Canada is competitive year after year makes it difficult to suggest change.

You're the one suggesting that Stamkos, Toews, Tavares etc. won't amount to anything.


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06-08-2009, 02:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Umm, I'm Canadian.

Where have I suggested that?

Do you even read?

The fact that Canada is competitive year after year makes it difficult to suggest change.

You're the one suggesting that Stamkos, Toews, Tavares etc. won't amount to anything.

I don't know, they may, they may not. I suggested a different thing, which is because of certain conditions the talent depth in Canada is less than it could have been. I don't know why you want to twist my words, this wasn't the idea to bash Canadian hockey.

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06-09-2009, 05:59 PM
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canada consistently has the dominating junior teams,minor teams,olympic teams...canadians dominate at all levels of hockey and are more complete players and tough playoff type players...they are the best as a group period....and im an american saying this...
as to these kids that dont play because they dont like the hitting....GOOD...they have no bussiness playing hockey then cause it is a physical colision sport...hitting is a big part of the game and we dont need any panzies that dont like it playing anyway

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06-09-2009, 06:18 PM
  #41
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canada consistently has the dominating junior teams,minor teams,olympic teams...canadians dominate at all levels of hockey and are more complete players and tough playoff type players...they are the best as a group period....and im an american saying this...
as to these kids that dont play because they dont like the hitting....GOOD...they have no bussiness playing hockey then cause it is a physical colision sport...hitting is a big part of the game and we dont need any panzies that dont like it playing anyway
12 year olds injured and concussed are panzies? Can you write anything dumber? Canada does not dominate Olympic hockey, they won one gold medal in like 56 years. Juniors are juniors, nobody really cares about junior hockey outside of Canada, so I don't see how such domination is important if you don't create a lot of elite hockey talent.

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06-09-2009, 07:56 PM
  #42
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12 year olds injured and concussed are panzies? Can you write anything dumber? Canada does not dominate Olympic hockey, they won one gold medal in like 56 years. Juniors are juniors, nobody really cares about junior hockey outside of Canada, so I don't see how such domination is important if you don't create a lot of elite hockey talent.
no the 12 year olds that are injured and concused are not the panzies....the 12 year olds that are injured or concused THEN ARE AFFRAID TO GET HIT AND DONT WANNA PLAY ANYMORE those are the panzies...and it doesnt matter if they quite because if they have that kinda mental make up they will never make it anywhere anyways....this is a tough sport...for tough kids.

as an example what would you say if someone started a thread saying america is losing talented football players because the kids dont wanna get tackled and hit?...its a big part of the sport

also those skilled kids that didnt like getting hit end up being the ones scoring 6 goals a game in mens league cause theyve got speed and skill when there is no checking...but throw them in a real game with contact and they usualy disapear

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06-10-2009, 03:33 AM
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Who are these kids that are afraid to hit and quit hockey because of it?

I played hockey for 12 years, never met one of them.

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06-10-2009, 10:07 AM
  #44
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Who are these kids that are afraid to hit and quit hockey because of it?

I played hockey for 12 years, never met one of them.


You want the names? Are you seriously doubting the fact that kids quit hockey because of hitting/injuries?

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06-10-2009, 10:09 AM
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no the 12 year olds that are injured and concused are not the panzies....the 12 year olds that are injured or concused THEN ARE AFFRAID TO GET HIT AND DONT WANNA PLAY ANYMORE those are the panzies...and it doesnt matter if they quite because if they have that kinda mental make up they will never make it anywhere anyways....this is a tough sport...for tough kids.

as an example what would you say if someone started a thread saying america is losing talented football players because the kids dont wanna get tackled and hit?...its a big part of the sport

also those skilled kids that didnt like getting hit end up being the ones scoring 6 goals a game in mens league cause theyve got speed and skill when there is no checking...but throw them in a real game with contact and they usualy disapear
Did you even play hockey to make statements like that? Why would you call a kid a panzy if in some cases the decision to quit hockey wasn't even his but his parents?

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06-10-2009, 12:20 PM
  #46
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yes i did play hockey...as far as playing major junior...i was a physical player and even as a 12 year old i loved hitting....i hated those kids taht layed on teh ice crying when they got hurt ...and i never in all my years of playing did that..
as for the parents if thats how they treat there kids by making them quite casue they got hurt and theyre scared there sons will get hurt again...those are horrible parents...they are cripling there sons mentally making them weak and they will turn out to be weak...sissy men..
also hockey is a physical collision sport it doesnt really matter how good ,fast skilled you are if you cant do all those same things while getting hit

let me ask you when is the last time you saw a nhl'er or even a major junior or d-1 college guy or even a aaa player that was affraid to get hit?..probably never...casue guys that are affraid to get hit never get to any of those levels....
there are plenty of house and rec leagues for those that just wanna enjoy playing the game without getting hit..and that is fine they shoud have fun....but those kids have no bussiness and would never survive in high levels

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06-10-2009, 03:59 PM
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yes i did play hockey...as far as playing major junior...i was a physical player and even as a 12 year old i loved hitting....i hated those kids taht layed on teh ice crying when they got hurt ...and i never in all my years of playing did that..
as for the parents if thats how they treat there kids by making them quite casue they got hurt and theyre scared there sons will get hurt again...those are horrible parents...they are cripling there sons mentally making them weak and they will turn out to be weak...sissy men..
also hockey is a physical collision sport it doesnt really matter how good ,fast skilled you are if you cant do all those same things while getting hit

let me ask you when is the last time you saw a nhl'er or even a major junior or d-1 college guy or even a aaa player that was affraid to get hit?..probably never...casue guys that are affraid to get hit never get to any of those levels....
there are plenty of house and rec leagues for those that just wanna enjoy playing the game without getting hit..and that is fine they shoud have fun....but those kids have no bussiness and would never survive in high levels
Well, there you go. I am sorry, but I consider your opinion dumb. Europeans don't play physical hockey at the young age and develop real hockey skills, but look who gets destroyed time and time again - Canadians. When Europeans learn to play with speed, Canadians learn to take hits, but if you don't improve speed you will be caught one day and destroyed anyways. Look at Brendan Sutter, he was so tough at juniors, hitting his peers left and right but when he came to man's league his speed and reaction is not very good. Here, physical guy, enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhepQWlvQKs


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06-10-2009, 04:40 PM
  #48
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Well, there you go. I am sorry, but I consider your opinion dumb. Europeans don't play physical hockey at the young age and develop real hockey skills, but look who gets destroyed time and time again - Canadians. When Europeans learn to play with speed, Canadians learn to take hits, but if you don't improve speed you will be caught one day and destroyed anyways. Look at Brendan Sutter, he was so tough at juniors, hitting his peers left and right but when he came to man's league his speed and reaction is not very good. Here, physical guy, enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhepQWlvQKs
siberian...i am not trying to argue with you i am enjoying a discusion with you because we have very different opinions..now
as far as the euro's vs canadians you are part right...on the bigger ice surface euro's tend to win..but on nhl ice surfaces canadians tend to win cause they can play a tight checking game and shut down the euros

dont get me wrong speed and skill is great and very neccesary to be elite.but if you cant do all that stuff while getting hit it is useless...just like if you are a big strong physical guy but your too slow to catch anyone your useless...agreed?

and my opinion of the kids taht get scared is that they are weak minded and it takes alote of mental toughness to make it anywhere in this sport and life in general as a man

so what im saying is taht not evryone has to be a hitter or physical but you also can not be affraid of it or all your skills will be useless... i played with a guy that was very skilled scored 40+ goals in his first year of jr a ...then he got caught with his head down one game got poped broken nose concusion..knocked out....next year he came back was scared tentative and a shell of the player he was he scored 7 goals his second year then quite....see my point a great skilled player taht once he got scared his skills became useless


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06-10-2009, 04:44 PM
  #49
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Well, there you go. I am sorry, but I consider your opinion dumb. Europeans don't play physical hockey at the young age and develop real hockey skills, but look who gets destroyed time and time again - Canadians. When Europeans learn to play with speed, Canadians learn to take hits, but if you don't improve speed you will be caught one day and destroyed anyways. Look at Brendan Sutter, he was so tough at juniors, hitting his peers left and right but when he came to man's league his speed and reaction is not very good. Here, physical guy, enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhepQWlvQKs
also that videa you posted proved my point exactly ...that was doug weight that made that hit who i think is a very good player he play physical...and do you think he learned to hit like taht by playing in no check leagues?...also did sutter quite after that game cause he was affraid?..no hes tough he got back up and kept on playing

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06-10-2009, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by xicethug13x View Post
also that videa you posted proved my point exactly ...that was doug weight that made that hit who i think is a very good player he play physical...and do you think he learned to hit like taht by playing in no check leagues?...also did sutter quite after that game cause he was affraid?..no hes tough he got back up and kept on playing
Doug Weight is slow and old and this video didn't prove anything except for the fact that playing physical hockey very young does not give you any advantage at all. Ask Keith Primeau, who was sent to retirement by a Russian who started playing physical hockey when he was 16 years old.

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