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Edmonton and Ottawa ( Heatley )

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Old
06-09-2009, 08:15 PM
  #51
oilsands
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This is a hell of a time to demand a trade. The league's finances are in shambles, and without equal salary going the other way, Ott may only get 2-3 offers from teams that:
a) have the need + b) have the economic stability + c)have the cap space

Heatley is a guy that 29 teams would want, but only a couple satisfy the above three criteria. In my opinion, Calgary, San Jose, Edmonton, LA, Montreal, Minny are the only teams in play here.

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06-09-2009, 08:17 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
If Ottawa doesn't get an offer they find suitable, then he'll be back with the team next season.

It's that simple.

I have no idea what teams will offer, and you're right, they might not offer very much. If that's the case, Heatley will have to honor the long term extension he signed, and if he has any pride/wants to win a Stanley Cup at some point/wants to play in the Olympics/ wants to be an attractive player that other teams will want to trade for, he'll have to put up an effort.

Ottawa won't give him away.
I think you have to get realistic and think that maybe your idea of what constitutes a bad offer and what people who actually manage teams think is a bad offer are two different things.

I bet Bos thought the Thorton deal was good value. It looks bad now, but they made the deal at the time and were content enough to not shop him. This applies to Oil for Pronger and the Panthers for Luongo.

The article I read say OTT wants a top 6 forward and top 4 puck mover in any trade for Heatley and the Oil can provide that.

http://www.630ched.com/Blogs/DanTenc...tryID=10035298

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06-09-2009, 08:45 PM
  #53
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Wow. this is really stupid.

I think it's a little too early to be talking so definitively about trade proposals. The story's barely broken. JP Barry himself said that he realizes that this isn't a sure thing.

People keep putting down that Heatley "DEMANDED" a trade in big bold capital letters. He requested one. There's a difference. He said that he's not happy with his role and that he would like a change. Right now, he doesn't feel like staying in Ottawa. But a year ago he loved the idea, he was so committed to it that he asked for a larger role on the team and to be a leader. Who's to say, maybe he'll warm up to the team again. He's far from holding out on the team.

JP Barry and him seem prepared to wait and see if something can be worked out. If nothing acceptable comes to Murray, he can keep trying for 5 years.

Whoever derisively brought up the Yashin situation needs to get their head out of their can. Ottawa ended up fleecing NYI in that trade.

Heatley's an elite player. 72 points last year does nothing to change that fact. Like someone said, Edm fans gizz in their pants at the prospect of a Hemsky/Heatley combo, as do Vancouver fans at the idea of him playing with the Sedins.

I'm sure after the Oilers offered 9 million over 9 years to Hossa last year, they wouldn't mind the "burden" of 7.5 over 5 years.

Heatley wanted out of Atlanta and they got Hossa (... and greg devries) for him.

Bryan Murray has a lot of options. Don't kid yourselves.

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Old
06-09-2009, 09:00 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfieFlight View Post
Heatley wanted out of Atlanta and they got Hossa (... and greg devries) for him.

Bryan Murray has a lot of options. Don't kid yourselves.
Heatley for Hossa was a 1 one of a kind trade. It won't happen again.

With him getting a 4 Million bonus, plus his 8 Salary, that moves him into a top-5 player category. Not many owners are probably willing to immediately sink (poor choice of words) 12 Million into a player in his first year, especially given the current economic climate.

Saying he has a lot of options is very very naive, as stated above, 29 teams would be interested, and would love to have him however that number gets widdled down extensively when you start applying the salary cap, owner situations, & the economic climate.

Personally, Heatley as Hemsky's trigger man would make me pinch a tent, however if you go back and examine most trades, you never get the same value that you give out.

I think something along the lines of

One of Gilbert / Grebeshkov
One of Cogliano / O'Sullivan
One of Eberle / 2009 first

is probably a fair deal, and I doubt many teams offering better. Potentially the L.A Kings, but who knows.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that we are all fans, and all want every superstar on our team. We think any deal is fair, and in reality we never get it right. We are worse than Eklund

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06-09-2009, 09:25 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
Heatley for Hossa was a 1 one of a kind trade. It won't happen again.
Really? Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
With him getting a 4 Million bonus, plus his 8 Salary, that moves him into a top-5 player category. Not many owners are probably willing to immediately sink (poor choice of words) 12 Million into a player in his first year, especially given the current economic climate.
I don't know where your getting the $12M # from. He signed a six year $45M dollar deal (10, 8, 8, 8, 6, 5) INCLUDING all bonuses I don't doubt there is a a bonus, and I'll take your word it is $4M in up front money, but it is included in the $8M he scheduled to make next year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
Saying he has a lot of options is very very naive, as stated above, 29 teams would be interested, and would love to have him however that number gets widdled down extensively when you start applying the salary cap, owner situations, & the economic climate.
There will be alot of teams that will offer up substantial assets to aquire him. He is elite despite his numbers this past season when the whole team was in a slump and he still got 39G. Econoic climate or not the contract is a good contract in todays NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
Personally, Heatley as Hemsky's trigger man would make me pinch a tent, however if you go back and examine most trades, you never get the same value that you give out.
And this is why teams will be interested. Every GM will say "I bet he'll fill the net if he was playing 'player x'" and make a pitch. And while I generally agree that the teams that win trades are usually the ones who get the best player, which in all likelyhood Heatley would be in any trade frthcomming. I think there is a flaw in your statement -- no one wins trades? there are no mutually beneficial trades?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
I think something along the lines of

One of Gilbert / Grebeshkov
One of Cogliano / O'Sullivan
One of Eberle / 2009 first

is probably a fair deal, and I doubt many teams offering better. Potentially the L.A Kings, but who knows.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that we are all fans, and all want every superstar on our team. We think any deal is fair, and in reality we never get it right. We are worse than Eklund
Gilbert, Cogliano and a 1st is a good offer I don't know how that fits in to what Murray wants. He feels that the team can still win now and would probably want an impact player back. We'll have to wait and see, nothing says he has to even be traded at all.

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Old
06-09-2009, 09:36 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrymir View Post
Really? Why?
Cause it hasn't happened since,nor 10 years before that. The reason it doesn't happen is cause of reasons I have already listed, salary cap (recent problem), ownership or economic concerns.

Quote:
I don't know where your getting the $12M # from. He signed a six year $45M dollar deal (10, 8, 8, 8, 6, 5) INCLUDING all bonuses I don't doubt there is a a bonus, and I'll take your word it is $4M in up front money, but it is included in the $8M he scheduled to make next year.
On July 1 he is owed a 4 Million dollar bonus plus 4 million of his '09-10 Salary, That was discussed in Edmonton by Jason Gregor and some Ottawa beat writer.

Facing facts, Heatley is an elite player, but his money is Top-5 in the NHL. He is not a top-5 player, maybe top 10, actually let me list;

Ovechkin
Crosby
Malkin
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Getzlaf


ya so like probably barely top 10.

Like I said beggers can't be choosers, and I want the Oil to get him, l just think Ottawa fans could have their expectations & value too high.

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06-09-2009, 09:58 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
Cause it hasn't happened since,nor 10 years before that. The reason it doesn't happen is cause of reasons I have already listed, salary cap (recent problem), ownership or economic concerns.
The fact is that young elite players under contract rarely get traded in the first place so it's really hard to make general statements such as the one your making. The cap may actually work in the sens favour as to make room for Heatley the receiving team may need to shed salary. The won't be taking a salary dump back so it could turn into a decent player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
On July 1 he is owed a 4 Million dollar bonus plus 4 million of his '09-10 Salary, That was discussed in Edmonton by Jason Gregor and some Ottawa beat writer.
Your right. I was under the opinion that the bonus was given at the start of the season, but this TSN article seemto agree with what you're saying. (4M salsry this past year 4M bonus July 1, 2009, 8M salry 09-10)
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=219794

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B View Post
Facing facts, Heatley is an elite player, but his money is Top-5 in the NHL. He is not a top-5 player, maybe top 10, actually let me list;

Ovechkin
Crosby
Malkin
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Getzlaf


ya so like probably barely top 10.

Like I said beggers can't be choosers, and I want the Oil to get him, l just think Ottawa fans could have their expectations & value too high.
Fact is none of those players are available, or will be. He is the best player available by UFA or trade. As I said players like Heatley and in Healeys situation don't normally get traded. Heatley is still 2nd in goals to Ovechkin since the lockout with 180. Teams will have to give to get.

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06-09-2009, 10:29 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Skrymir View Post
The fact is that young elite players under contract rarely get traded in the first place so it's really hard to make general statements such as the one your making. The cap may actually work in the sens favour as to make room for Heatley the receiving team may need to shed salary. The won't be taking a salary dump back so it could turn into a decent player.

Your right. I was under the opinion that the bonus was given at the start of the season, but this TSN article seemto agree with what you're saying. (4M salsry this past year 4M bonus July 1, 2009, 8M salry 09-10)
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=219794

Fact is none of those players are available, or will be. He is the best player available by UFA or trade. As I said players like Heatley and in Healeys situation don't normally get traded. Heatley is still 2nd in goals to Ovechkin since the lockout with 180. Teams will have to give to get.
That's the first thing that goes out the window when a player demands a trade.

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06-09-2009, 10:52 PM
  #59
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That's the first thing that goes out the window when a player demands a trade.
I think you mean "requests" a trade.

Doesn't it sound so much more polite?

If there is one thing Edmonton fans know, it's dealing away stars and superstars. From Gretzky to Weight and and Arnott in the 90's and all the way up to Pronger just a few years ago. The value you give is often much more than what you receive. The Lindros and Heatley-Hossa trades are the only ones that come straight to mind.

Let's look at the Pronger trades since they are most fresh in everyone's minds and were made during the Cap era. Trades you ask. Yes. Pronger was traded twice during the 2 offseasons of 2005 and 2006 by 2 teams in a pinch.

To Edmonton: Chris Pronger
To St. Louis : Eric Brewer, Jeff Woywitka and Doug Lynch

St. Louis was in a pinch to offload Pronger to get under the cap ceiling and fetched a top four D and 2 prospects. I know Woywitka is still playing but haven't heard a thing on Lynch in years.

To Anahiem: Chris Pronger
To Edmonton: Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, 2 first rounders (1 conditional), and a second rounder.

After news was made public that Pronger had "requested" a trade all that Edmonton could fetch for CP (just coming off an amazing playoffs and signed to a very reasonable 5.25 mil for the next 5 years) was one roster player, a blue chip prospect, and few picks.

I'm sure K-Lowe could have told me him no, that he would have to suck it up and play out the contract he had signed. But would he really want to? Do you really want that in your locker room or on the ice representing your team? Or do you cut your losses, make the best trade that is given to you and look forward to the future.

There is no doubt in my mind that Murray is going to take the best offer available. And judging by some of the posts from sens fans here there might be a little bit of dissapointment from the return Heatley garners.

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Old
06-09-2009, 10:52 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by syz View Post
That's the first thing that goes out the window when a player demands a trade.
The request to be moved (not demand, there is a difference) only tempers the situation a little. He is an elite player who will garner a lot of interest. Demand drives price. If everybody low balls Murray, he won't be traded.

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06-09-2009, 10:53 PM
  #61
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Sens fans should prepare themselves to be very disappointed if he is in fact traded. GM's know that Murray has limited options. It's rumoured that Lowe tried to get Getzlaf in the Pronger trade(and he wasnt that good then) and was offered Lupul instead.
My guess is that he will be traded no later than the draft.

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06-09-2009, 10:57 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Skrymir View Post
The request to be moved (not demand, there is a difference) only tempers the situation a little. He is an elite player who will garner a lot of interest. Demand drives price. If everybody low balls Murray, he won't be traded.
Yea sure. Chris Pronger made a commitment to the Edmonton Oilers as well with a 5 year deal. Days after losing game seven in the SCF he "requested/demanded a trade as well). I'm sure there was a bit of demand for an elite defenseman that could have been the Conn Smythe winner days earlier too

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06-09-2009, 11:19 PM
  #63
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Souray+Cogliano+Chorney for Heatley

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06-09-2009, 11:26 PM
  #64
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Souray+Cogliano+Chorney for Heatley
Thats going the wrong way for Souray. He wants to be close to his Kids. Insert Visnovsky

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06-09-2009, 11:42 PM
  #65
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It'll probably end up being Gagner and Gilbert, which is pretty fair for both sides IMO.

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06-09-2009, 11:45 PM
  #66
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It'll probably end up being Gagner and Gilbert, which is pretty fair for both sides IMO.
Aye caramba I don't know if we can deal Gagner, as sweet as Heatley is. He is our only player with elite potential.

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06-09-2009, 11:49 PM
  #67
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To Anahiem: Chris Pronger
To Edmonton: Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, 2 first rounders (1 conditional), and a second rounder.

After news was made public that Pronger had "requested" a trade all that Edmonton could fetch for CP (just coming off an amazing playoffs and signed to a very reasonable 5.25 mil for the next 5 years) was one roster player, a blue chip prospect, and few picks.
It was actually 6.25, but still a bargain contract at that time. One of the top 3 at his position and came off a playoff run where he was the reason a team that had no business making the finals made the finals. Compare to Heatley who is coming off his worst year in a long time, makes (at best) market value in a cap world that is soon to shrink, has demanded a trade and can choose his destination due to a NMC, and Sens fans think he'll return more than Pronger got in a similar situation where he was in control of his destination?

The Kings will more than likely get in the bidding as well, but what will they offer? Maybe Frolov and JJ? Can't see more than that. Then you can do this all over again when Simple Jack requests a trade because it felt like the thing to do.

Ultimately, it comes down to how many teams are willing to take on Heatley's contract, because it is a big ticket even if he puts up a 40-40 year next year.

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06-09-2009, 11:56 PM
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Sens fans should prepare themselves to be very disappointed if he is in fact traded. GM's know that Murray has limited options. It's rumoured that Lowe tried to get Getzlaf in the Pronger trade(and he wasnt that good then) and was offered Lupul instead.My guess is that he will be traded no later than the draft.
The rumour was clarified by K-Lowe (sorry no link, but was in a 1-on-1 with him on a PPV in 07 I think), where he stated the only way Getzlaf could be part of the deal was straight up, no picks or additional players. Thats how high Burke was on him at the time (and was proved right the following year), but you can't blame K-Lowe for balking at dealing the 2nd best Dman in the league at the time under contract long-term for an extremely talented but unproven prospect/rookie. It would be like offering Gagner straight up for Heatley - could Gagner be an 80 pt player in 2 yrs? Not out of the question, but if you're the Sens you say no 10 out 10 times.

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06-10-2009, 12:14 AM
  #69
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Aye caramba I don't know if we can deal Gagner, as sweet as Heatley is. He is our only player with elite potential.
Yeah, that's why I think Ottawa would demand him in a trade and make him the centrepiece. Edmonton also has alot of young skilled forwards who aren't there yet, so they can afford to deal one in order to get an elite goalscorer in his prime. He had an off year on a bad team, but in Edmonton he would be able to get the puck and score 45+. Considering Edmonton keeps Ebrele and their 1st this year, they maintain a future while making the playoffs this year.

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06-10-2009, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
It was actually 6.25, but still a bargain contract at that time. One of the top 3 at his position and came off a playoff run where he was the reason a team that had no business making the finals made the finals. Compare to Heatley who is coming off his worst year in a long time, makes (at best) market value in a cap world that is soon to shrink, has demanded a trade and can choose his destination due to a NMC, and Sens fans think he'll return more than Pronger got in a similar situation where he was in control of his destination?

The Kings will more than likely get in the bidding as well, but what will they offer? Maybe Frolov and JJ? Can't see more than that. Then you can do this all over again when Simple Jack requests a trade because it felt like the thing to do.

Ultimately, it comes down to how many teams are willing to take on Heatley's contract, because it is a big ticket even if he puts up a 40-40 year next year.
What a damn fool I am. Did all my homework on the draft picks and prospects going back and forth and I get the cap hit wrong.

And I couldn't agree with you more on how much a difference the salary cap is going to make in regards to the two situations. That's alot of salary to take on for any team especially with cap looking to go down over the next couple years. Bryan Murray has very little negotiating power when you factor everything in. He'll either take the best deal on the table (most likely) or he'll deny the trade to Heatley and hope something better is offered during the regular season.

Frolov and JJ for Heatley would be a good trade but isn't Frolov a UFA after this year? And for the Oilers to do this deal they need some salary going the other way to handle Heatley's contract.

Souray/Vis + Cogs + mid level prospect should get it done from both sides. If another team sweetens the deal anymore I would say to pass from an Oilers standpoint.

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06-10-2009, 12:51 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
It was actually 6.25, but still a bargain contract at that time. One of the top 3 at his position and came off a playoff run where he was the reason a team that had no business making the finals made the finals. Compare to Heatley who is coming off his worst year in a long time, makes (at best) market value in a cap world that is soon to shrink, has demanded a trade and can choose his destination due to a NMC, and Sens fans think he'll return more than Pronger got in a similar situation where he was in control of his destination?

The Kings will more than likely get in the bidding as well, but what will they offer? Maybe Frolov and JJ? Can't see more than that. Then you can do this all over again when Simple Jack requests a trade because it felt like the thing to do.

Ultimately, it comes down to how many teams are willing to take on Heatley's contract, because it is a big ticket even if he puts up a 40-40 year next year.
And whether Heatley agrees to go to that team. He is still the one to control the destination. As an extreme example, if the Pens offered Malkin for Heatley straight up and Heatley denies going to Pitts, what can be done?

Do Sens fans really think Murray is in a position of power here?

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06-10-2009, 01:10 AM
  #72
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Gilbert, Cogliano, Smid for Heatley. Oilers could still go after a high draft pick. They could even go for JBO as a UFA.

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06-10-2009, 01:14 AM
  #73
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Quote:
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And whether Heatley agrees to go to that team. He is still the one to control the destination. As an extreme example, if the Pens offered Malkin for Heatley straight up and Heatley denies going to Pitts, what can be done?

Do Sens fans really think Murray is in a position of power here?
Heatley's agents have already said he's not going to be too picky. He just wants to go somewhere where he can have a huge role on the team.

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06-10-2009, 01:22 AM
  #74
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Heatley's agents have already said he's not going to be too picky. He just wants to go somewhere where he can have a huge role on the team.
He would definitely be the go to guy in Edmonton. An Ottawa reporter was on Edmonton radio saying that even though Heatley is a very talented player, his success was kinda 60% Spezza and 40% himself. Even if that's the case, Hemsky's playmaking ability isn't a dramatic step down(if at all) so 50 goals wouldn't be out of the question. Hemsky could have easily maintained his PPG pace if Horcoff was capable of one timing a puck.

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06-10-2009, 01:25 AM
  #75
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Heatley's agents have already said he's not going to be too picky. He just wants to go somewhere where he can have a huge role on the team.
Where did you here that on the radio or something? I would love to know if he is just going to waive his clause or atleast know the teams he is willing to go to. If he is willing i am certain the Oilers would give good value in return. Possibly more then what most teams would offer.

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