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Proposal: Rozsival

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Old
06-14-2009, 08:50 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
I didn't mention any need to trade Latendresse, but if he is "one of our best young players", we are in trouble. He manages to keep an NHL job, but there are many Latendresses out there to be had.
Name a few 20-22 yo players in lat's mold ''out there to be had'' please. And how you plan to get them.

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06-14-2009, 09:05 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Marksman View Post
My guess is his definition for a power forward ...
Except you've changed a key variable in the discussion.

We're not talking about the definition of a power forward, we're talking about the definition of a physical player, which, amazingly, Jack said he doesn't measure by actually playing physically.

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Old
06-14-2009, 09:09 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by youarentobjective View Post
Problem with that is you don't have any forwards in the system that make sense for the Rangers. Your best prospects not in the NHL are either on defense or at center which the Rangers have no need for. If you are going to get a Rosival, you have to give up a young offensive player on your roster. Rangers defenseman were outstanding other than Redden. They took a ton of crap for no reason at all. Due to the incompetence of the forwards to keep the puck in the other teams zone, they had to play in their zone a ton all last season which is very difficult.

Rangers need to add a wing.
If your hope is that the Rangers are gonna swap Rosival for a young offensive player, you're gonna be pretty disappointed. Sather has managed the Rangers into a tight salary cap with multiple player (Gomez, Drury, Redden, Rosival) who are grossly over-paid and as such have much lower or in some cases negative trade value.

Even on a decent contract, Rosival wasn't gonna fetch you a young offensive player. With his current contract, you'd be lucky to find any team that wants to take him period, let alone in exchange for a young offensive player.

The problem isn't that Montreal doesn't have anyone in their system that make sense for New York, as you claim, the problem is your General Manager has saddled a mediocre player with a star players contract, and as such, has made him virtually unmovable outside of re-entry waivers. I hope your a fan of his, cause he's staying on Broadway.

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06-14-2009, 10:18 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Who are we to say that they are overpaid? Sure cap wise he is a gamble. I believe that Rozsival could be a solid addition if other option doesn't pan out.
Also the last time I check, we have a Dman that is the best buck in the NHL and that's Markov. Looks like he could have add 6.5 to 7+ million a/year.What a steal that is in todays NHL
Hamrlik is overpaid for what he brings (I'm saying that and I like Hammer) and so is Rozsival. In an era where the cap is going down, you can find some players who will do the same job for much less. That's a definition of overpaid. I'd rather keep those $10 million and get one stud defenseman or forward instead.

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06-14-2009, 10:59 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
For 4-5 million I would want a better player than Roszival. And I'd rather keep Latendresse, an underrated, 21-year old NHLer with many of the qualities the Habs are said to need.

I'd rather dedicate those dollars to Komisarek.
DING DING DING we have a winner.

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06-14-2009, 11:12 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Except you've changed a key variable in the discussion.

We're not talking about the definition of a power forward, we're talking about the definition of a physical player, which, amazingly, Jack said he doesn't measure by actually playing physically.
See message #38. Maybe this explains your differences you had with Mr. Jack. Well the very first part.

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Old
06-14-2009, 11:15 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
Latendresse is far and away from being the prototypical power forward everyone claims him to be. Please, I've watched as many games as the rest of you and quit trying to make me and others believe that Latendresse is a physical player.

Yes he has improved greatly this season, but he still has ways to go before being a physical presence. Playing physical doesn't mean having size and throwing your body around.
Before Latendresse went down with an injury, he was one of the most physical players on the team, but that isn't saying much. He was playing well and putting the puck in the net when he got the chances. He didn't suck at finishing. He start to know his role and went out there and threw hits. He even went to the front of the net from time to time.

I think this upcoming season, if he's healthy, he should be able to crack 20 goals.

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06-14-2009, 11:26 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Hamrlik is overpaid for what he brings (I'm saying that and I like Hammer) and so is Rozsival. In an era where the cap is going down, you can find some players who will do the same job for much less. That's a definition of overpaid. I'd rather keep those $10 million and get one stud defenseman or forward instead.
I was not looking for a definition. Hamerlik may be over payed according to his stats this year, but he has earned that salary for his pass play. Some have to look past the stats and realize that He is a solid 2 way D-man.
I believe that with this next season coming, he can regain his game and bring it to the next level. This year was terrible for everyone and like many on the team, Hamerlik was hurt( yes based on my opinion) and was dragging this injury all season. The difference would be that he played with the pain. That's money if you ask me. Come playoff time, he is gonna be a warrior and this year's PO was a good example.

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Old
06-14-2009, 11:33 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
So your definition of a physical player doesn't limit itself to the player actually playing physically?

I suppose you don't define a goal scorer by how many goals he scores either?

You said that you're tired of people "trying to make you believe he's a physical player" and now you've added that your definition of a physical player isn't limited to having a large number of hits, which, would seemingly be a very obvious way to measure whether a player is physical or not.

I'm sure I'm not the only one confused by this, so please, do tell us how you gauge if a player is physical or not.
Sorry for not getting back to you ASAP, I went to bed quite early last night.

Okay, so we were talking about physicality in hockey. While it is true that hits are probably the most important aspect of playing a physical brand of hockey, it is also important to follow up on hits and make good plays. In honest words, what would be the use of laying hits if it didn't create any chances on the other teams end? Now I'm sure you will come up with answers to that previous question, but I will continue with this thought process.

Often times, you see players like Latendresse that are capable of throwing big hits but don't retain puck possession. It is refreshing for us to have a player like him because (yes its true) rarely do we see big hits coming from the Habs, however his inability to create chances from hits prove to me that he still needs much catering before he can claim to be a physical player.

Now, this may be unfair, but I will use players such as Lucic and Getzlaf as models for a physical brand of offensive hockey. I will admit that it is hard to clearly define a "physical player", but guys like the ones I've mentionned just seem to have a knack for laying hits, retaining pucks, roughing up the opposition, disrupting the play, withstanding hits and driving the net.

I am also hoping that Latendresse develops into a great player (it would be gravy if he could break the 20 goal mark), but I just reacted badly to the statement that he is (currently) one of our best young players. I am the pessimist kind, even if you make 1 million dollars today, I will always think of you as the 40k guys from yesterday or the 10k guy that you MIGHT be next week.

Yeah, you were right, you're not the only one confused at the moment

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06-14-2009, 11:34 AM
  #60
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It still doesn't change the fact that I'd rather take that $10 million and go after a stud instead... Two overpaid defensemen don't make up for one (overpaid) stud.

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06-14-2009, 11:41 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marksman View Post
See message #38. Maybe this explains your differences you had with Mr. Jack. Well the very first part.
Yeah, that's the exact message where he says that Latendresse doesn't play physically.

That's the first message that I responded to, because the statement is absurd.

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06-14-2009, 11:41 AM
  #62
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In a perfect world yes I too want to make the best with 10 million.

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06-14-2009, 11:47 AM
  #63
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As Marksman suspected, you seem to have mixed being a power forward up with being a physical player. The two things are clearly different.

Latendresse is not a true power forward for the exact reasons you cite for him not being a physical player. While I think it's incredibly unfair to measure him against Getzlaf or Lucic, two players with blessed tremendous physical abilities, the points you make about puck possession, shift disturbing, intimidating the opponent and making plays, those are all attributes of a power forward.

Had you simply taken issue with him being labeled as such, I wouldn't have had an issue with the remark, but to label a player that goes out shift after shift and takes the body as not being a physical forward is just silly, and it gets sillier when you say you don't use hits as a way of measuring a physical foward.

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06-14-2009, 12:16 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
As Marksman suspected, you seem to have mixed being a power forward up with being a physical player. The two things are clearly different.

Latendresse is not a true power forward for the exact reasons you cite for him not being a physical player. While I think it's incredibly unfair to measure him against Getzlaf or Lucic, two players with blessed tremendous physical abilities, the points you make about puck possession, shift disturbing, intimidating the opponent and making plays, those are all attributes of a power forward.

Had you simply taken issue with him being labeled as such, I wouldn't have had an issue with the remark, but to label a player that goes out shift after shift and takes the body as not being a physical forward is just silly, and it gets sillier when you say you don't use hits as a way of measuring a physical foward.

Lucic doesn't have the hands to be a true power forward. He's more of a banger who can chip in the occasional goal. Getzlaf is a skill player with size, not very physical. I think once Lats hits his prime he'll be a blend of those 2 players and a pure power forward.

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06-14-2009, 12:20 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
As Marksman suspected, you seem to have mixed being a power forward up with being a physical player. The two things are clearly different.

Latendresse is not a true power forward for the exact reasons you cite for him not being a physical player. While I think it's incredibly unfair to measure him against Getzlaf or Lucic, two players with blessed tremendous physical abilities, the points you make about puck possession, shift disturbing, intimidating the opponent and making plays, those are all attributes of a power forward.

Had you simply taken issue with him being labeled as such, I wouldn't have had an issue with the remark, but to label a player that goes out shift after shift and takes the body as not being a physical forward is just silly, and it gets sillier when you say you don't use hits as a way of measuring a physical foward.
Fair enough, I guess we both had our points.

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06-14-2009, 12:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Lucic doesn't have the hands to be a true power forward. He's more of a banger who can chip in the occasional goal. Getzlaf is a skill player with size, not very physical. I think once Lats hits his prime he'll be a blend of those 2 players and a pure power forward.
Comparing Lucic's physical size with Lats is ridiculous. Lucic scares defensemen on opposing teams. 85% of Latendresse's hits happen when his "victim" already passed the puck and the hits aren't big at all.

And Getzlaf's skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lats'

Not even close. Latendresse won't become a mix of 2 other players, he'll be the same Fatty we've watched for the last 3 years, even if he improves his game. I wouldn't even label him a power forward. PF uses their size and strength to make room for themselves when they have the puck or in front of the net. Lats is a big forward who plays like a small guy who hits a lot, nothing more. Lapierre, for instance, is 10 times better than he is at puck possession and battles along the boards.

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06-14-2009, 12:51 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Lucic doesn't have the hands to be a true power forward. He's more of a banger who can chip in the occasional goal. Getzlaf is a skill player with size, not very physical. I think once Lats hits his prime he'll be a blend of those 2 players and a pure power forward.
You forgot the

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06-14-2009, 12:57 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Lucic doesn't have the hands to be a true power forward. He's more of a banger who can chip in the occasional goal. Getzlaf is a skill player with size, not very physical. I think once Lats hits his prime he'll be a blend of those 2 players and a pure power forward.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

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06-14-2009, 12:59 PM
  #69
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Andrei Kostitsyn had 124 hits in 7 less games, for Getzlaf's size he could be a lot more physical than what he is.

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06-14-2009, 01:08 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Etienne View Post
Comparing Lucic's physical size with Lats is ridiculous. Lucic scares defensemen on opposing teams. 85% of Latendresse's hits happen when his "victim" already passed the puck and the hits aren't big at all.

And Getzlaf's skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lats'

Not even close. Latendresse won't become a mix of 2 other players, he'll be the same Fatty we've watched for the last 3 years, even if he improves his game. I wouldn't even label him a power forward. PF uses their size and strength to make room for themselves when they have the puck or in front of the net. Lats is a big forward who plays like a small guy who hits a lot, nothing more. Lapierre, for instance, is 10 times better than he is at puck possession and battles along the boards.
Who cares if Lats hits a player that has the puck or just got rid of it, if you knew something about hockey you'd know that making the defenseman rush his play has an impact on the game. Lucic only scares the d-men that are soft, i'm sure Lats scares those 2.

I never said that Lats had more skill than Getzlaf, just that he was a lot more physical.

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06-14-2009, 01:35 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Who cares if Lats hits a player that has the puck or just got rid of it, if you knew something about hockey you'd know that making the defenseman rush his play has an impact on the game. Lucic only scares the d-men that are soft, i'm sure Lats scares those 2.

I never said that Lats had more skill than Getzlaf, just that he was a lot more physical.
Well, that's the thing. Lats is too slow and not aggressive enough to force the D into rushing their plays. TK and Laps were far better forecheckers this season, because they could skate reasonably well.

And my idea of physical player is not someone who throws a lot of hits, but is willing to get his nose dirty. Holmstrom or Ryan Smith are 10x more physical than Lats even if they don't hit as often as him.

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06-14-2009, 02:12 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Lucic doesn't have the hands to be a true power forward. He's more of a banger who can chip in the occasional goal. Getzlaf is a skill player with size, not very physical. I think once Lats hits his prime he'll be a blend of those 2 players and a pure power forward.
Someone is living in a dream world. The day Lats learns to skate at a true NHL level is the day he will make a real impact.

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06-14-2009, 02:24 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
Often times, you see players like Latendresse that are capable of throwing big hits but don't retain puck possession. It is refreshing for us to have a player like him because (yes its true) rarely do we see big hits coming from the Habs, however his inability to create chances from hits prove to me that he still needs much catering before he can claim to be a physical player.
I'm confused.

If his physicality doesn't create chances, how did he ever manage to be second to Tanguay in goal-scoring when divided by icetime?

I mean, Lats crams a lot of goals and hits in the quite limited time he spends on the ice. Everyone calls him slow, so clearly that would mean he doesn't have time to do a lot of stuff in-between his hits and his goals. If the hits don't lead to goals, and the goals certainly don't lead to hits, how does he manage to be so hitty and so effective at the same time?

If his physical game doesn't help him be one of the best goal-scorers on the team (and BTW, he crams more goals in his icetime than both Lucic and Getzlaf!), then what makes him so good at putting the puck in the net?

It doesn't compute.

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06-14-2009, 02:28 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He was very effective on the PP when they actually put him on it. The few games he was a regular on the #1 unit they scored some screened goals where he gave the goalie no chance to see anything.
Unfortunately, much as I defend Lats I'm going to have to contradict this. The Habs scored all of four PP goals with Lats on the ice, total. Of all the players with any significant PP time at all, Lats was the one they scored the least goals with.

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06-14-2009, 02:41 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
Exchanging a 29 years old D-men for a 21 years old offense and a draft choice does not seem like the best choice at first look.

If we want to build this team with draft choices, we better let them develop. We are going to reap the benefits of Latendresse and when he is ready, you want to let him go...
If you want to bring up young defense prospects you need a vet to pair with them or you risk that young defenseman being overwhelmed at the NHL level. Rosival has helped both Staal and Girardi develop at the NHL level. Montreal has some good, young defenseman who might make the NHL this year. I'd rather have a reliable vet with them.

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