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Old
06-15-2009, 07:12 PM
  #51
Heaton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingnut31 View Post
How about moving Rafalski and freeing up 6mil.
Novel idea but he has a NTC and Holland isn't going to ask him to waive it to trade him because he realizes how important he is to this team.

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06-15-2009, 07:17 PM
  #52
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The Wings would then have zero right shooting defensemen and nobody to play with Nick, unless we think Ericsson is ready for that kind of duty full-time. And that would give us a Lebda-Meech 3rd pairing.

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Old
06-15-2009, 07:20 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I rank the Wings players:

Forwards:
Zetteberg
Datsyuk
Hossa
Franzen
Cleary
Flip
Helm
Holmstrom (if healthy)
sammy
Hudler
Draper
Maltby
Leino
Gator's still a griffin to me

D:
Lidstrom
Rafalski
Kronwall
Stuart
E
Lilja
Lebda
Meech
I think Homer has slipped below Sammy and Hudler, sorry to say, healthy or not. Without his net front play, there's not much else there. I also rank Stuart ahead of Rafalski (!!!!!!!!) and Kronwall-- just a bit since Kronner is very effective offensively. Rafalski just seemed too much of a defensive liability whenever there was a good forecheck. Not as bad as Schneider, but teams seem to know how to expose him. He's great on the puck control and moving it though. Is he $2-3 million more better than Kronwall or Stuart? Hmmm.

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06-15-2009, 07:21 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Novel idea but he has a NTC and Holland isn't going to ask him to waive it to trade him because he realizes how important he is to this team.
Every guy we're talking about is important to the team. At the same time, I'd cut fat elsewhere before really tinkering with the defense.

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06-15-2009, 07:23 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Every guy we're talking about is important to the team. At the same time, I'd cut fat elsewhere before really tinkering with the defense.
That's the point, the defense is a lot more important than Samuelsson, Hudler and even Hossa. Which is why believing we can just cut bait and go forward isn't really even an option.

Like you said the other roles are easier to fill.

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06-15-2009, 07:25 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think Homer has slipped below Sammy and Hudler, sorry to say, healthy or not. Without his net front play, there's not much else there. I also rank Stuart ahead of Rafalski (!!!!!!!!) and Kronwall-- just a bit since Kronner is very effective offensively. Rafalski just seemed too much of a defensive liability whenever there was a good forecheck. Not as bad as Schneider, but teams seem to know how to expose him. He's great on the puck control and moving it though. Is he $2-3 million more better than Kronwall or Stuart? Hmmm.
Homer did his thing for many years, but at this point he is nowhere near as effective as the guys who can tip the puck AND shoot the puck AND skate. Cleary and Franzen have co-opted the netfront spot from Homer, and they both play it better than he does now because the other team has to pay attention to them when they have the puck AND when they're screening. Nobody even bothers to defend Homer when he has the puck anymore, it's like they used to do with Larionov when they would double team his wingers and give him a wide open shot, knowing he would do anything to avoid shooting the puck.

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06-15-2009, 07:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Homer did his thing for many years, but at this point he is nowhere near as effective as the guys who can tip the puck AND shoot the puck AND skate. Cleary and Franzen have co-opted the netfront spot from Homer, and they both play it better than he does now because the other team has to pay attention to them when they have the puck AND when they're screening. Nobody even bothers to defend Homer when he has the puck anymore, it's like they used to do with Larionov when they would double team his wingers and give him a wide open shot, knowing he would do anything to avoid shooting the puck.
Holmstrom's constant backhand passes at the blue line that are almost always turnovers are another sign that's washed up.

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06-15-2009, 07:28 PM
  #58
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I do not believe any player on LTIR is allowed to participate in regular practices. They can be sent to the minors for a conditioning stint without being subject to waivers.
Thanks I didn't think a player on LTIR was able to participate in practice but wasn't sure. If Homer is out 1/2 to 3/4 of the year do you think he would still try to come back or just announce his retirement.

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06-15-2009, 07:29 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Holmstrom's constant backhand passes at the blue line that are almost always turnovers are another sign that's washed up.
Holmstrom isn't washed up he's just getting to be too injury prone to produce. You can't have a hamstring pull with a double sports hernia and expect to be effective.

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06-15-2009, 07:36 PM
  #60
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Copied from one of our numerous Hossa threads. I didn't want to dig these numbers up again.


Well, he did pot 40 G, 71 Pts in 3 fewer games than Z. Only Z (31G/73 Pts) and Dats (32 G/97 Pts) had more. ...

Around the NHL, Hossa was tied 5th with several players (Rick Nash included) in Goals scored. Ahead of him: AO, J Carter, Z Parise, and I Kovalchuk. Nash and Hossa were the top goal scorers in the Western Conference. (Interestingly, Heatley scored 39 G in 82 games played.)

Of the goalscoring leaders, only Vanek (tied with Hossa at 40 G) played in fewer games-- one less than Hossa.


As for value to this team? Well, you have to look at who can score for you. The top goal and pts guys are Dats, Z, Hossa and Franzen (34 G/ 59 Pts). After those guys, only Hudler breached the 20 G ceiling, at 23 G.

Hossa had the fewest PPG of the forwards relative to his total (10 goals on the PP, thus 75% at ES).
Franzen had 11 PPG/34 G, or 32% on the PP;
Dats 11/32 = 34%;
Z 12/31 = 38%;
Homer 8/14 = 57%
Sammy 7/19 = 36%;
Hudler 6/23 = 26%

I'll add these guys because they do get some PP time, but the other forward's get the lion's share.
Cleary 3/14 = 21%
Flip 1/12 = 21%

The PP was 25.5% efficient, the highest in the NHL.

Rafalski, Lidstrom and Franzen are ahead of all the other forwards in total pts after Dats, Z, and Hossa. Kronwall has more after Franzen and Hudler are ranked.

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06-15-2009, 07:57 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think Homer has slipped below Sammy and Hudler, sorry to say, healthy or not. Without his net front play, there's not much else there. I also rank Stuart ahead of Rafalski (!!!!!!!!) and Kronwall-- just a bit since Kronner is very effective offensively. Rafalski just seemed too much of a defensive liability whenever there was a good forecheck. Not as bad as Schneider, but teams seem to know how to expose him. He's great on the puck control and moving it though. Is he $2-3 million more better than Kronwall or Stuart? Hmmm.
my thoughts exactly

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06-15-2009, 08:27 PM
  #62
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I do not believe any player on LTIR is allowed to participate in regular practices. They can be sent to the minors for a conditioning stint without being subject to waivers.
i'm not so sure. Stuy and Homer practiced this year during their stints on LTIR, didn't they? they certainly weren't sent down for conditioning, and i can't imagine them going from self-conditioning straight to a game.

maybe they have to sit the minimum 10 games/25 days before they can practice, but that doesn't seem right either. if i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but i see nothing in the CBA that restricts practice to the LTIR-group.

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06-15-2009, 08:27 PM
  #63
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Jamie Lundmark is another interesting option in terms of adding some cheap depth up front. He's a RH shot, plays with some grit(as far as I can remember), and was a 1st rounder and top prospect, so he has some decent skills. He could turn out to be a similar player to Dan Cleary for the Wings.

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06-15-2009, 09:01 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think Homer has slipped below Sammy and Hudler, sorry to say, healthy or not. Without his net front play, there's not much else there. I also rank Stuart ahead of Rafalski (!!!!!!!!) and Kronwall-- just a bit since Kronner is very effective offensively. Rafalski just seemed too much of a defensive liability whenever there was a good forecheck. Not as bad as Schneider, but teams seem to know how to expose him. He's great on the puck control and moving it though. Is he $2-3 million more better than Kronwall or Stuart? Hmmm.
You asked regardless of their contract status But, still, yes. Though I think it's a bit unfair to compare Kronwall's contrac to either of Stuart or Rafalski, as it was signed at an entirely different point in his career. Would we be able to sign Kronwall for $3m right now? I doubt it.

With Homer and Rafalski, I think injuries have to be considered. Homer went through hernia and back troubles in the regular season and was getting shots to numb his knee throughout the playoffs. I can see an argument that Homer will never be reliably healthy again but, if he is healthy, I think he's far more than just the crease guy. He's also one of our most physical players, consistently engaging in physical battles deep in the oppositions end - something we were screaming for in the Pittsburgh series. And Rafalski was playing with a herniated disk. And he got burned how often? He had a horrible regular season, but he was there when it counted and gave us a very good run.

To me, Sammy's a good 2-way player but without any special niche on the team. I really like the guy but he isn't overly impactful. And Hudler is, well, Hudler. He puts up points but his physical attributes have severely limited him. Maybe he'll evolve past it but, right now, he isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
Leino is also what, 25? And he has not even scratched the surface of his potential. It's unlikely he will be a ppg/gamebreaking player, but I really believe that with 15 minutes of ice time a night, some time in the top 6, some PP time (basically Hudler's ice time from this season), he could at least match Hudler's numbers.

Also, Maltby is not the safe defensive player he used to be - he has been either a -8 or a -9 in each of the 4 post-lockout seasons, whereas the 4 seasons before the lockout he was +15 or better every year.

Some of us are guilty at times of seeing the Maltby or Draper or Homer from 8 or 9 years ago when we think about their play - in reality, these guys have all slipped a LOT, whether it's from age or injuries or both.
I have no doubt Leino could rack up points next year and I've basically penciled him into Hudler's spot myself. But that's next year. This year the guy still made numerous low quality/high risk decisions when he was on the ice that we were lucky to not get burned on. Maltby might be far far less explosive, but he's also more reliable. The same with Draper and Holmstrom.

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06-15-2009, 09:36 PM
  #65
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I have no doubt Leino could rack up points next year and I've basically penciled him into Hudler's spot myself. But that's next year. This year the guy still made numerous low quality/high risk decisions when he was on the ice that we were lucky to not get burned on. Maltby might be far far less explosive, but he's also more reliable. The same with Draper and Holmstrom.
Well, it is next year we're interested in, right? I mean, it's in the thread title and whatnot...

I would like to see Leino get a chance to work out some of the kinks in the regular season in the hopes that by playoff time, he could be playing at a high level at both ends of the rink.

In the playoffs, if anything I thought he was too cautious in the offensive zone and did not make enough aggressive moves toward the net. That's a balance he will work on and either he'll continue to develop, or he'll be a 3rd liner that chips in.

Leino also scored as many goals with the big club as Maltby, nearly as many points, and was a +5 compared to Maltby's -9 with the big club. That's in 65 fewer games.

And Maltby's minus can't be chalked up to him playing against elite offensive players anymore either, because he was used mostly as an energy player and not a defensive stopper. That was a preemptive SHH!

Didn't Leino play with Hossa in the regular season, and weren't they pretty good together? Or am I remembering wrong?

Reliable is only a good thing if a player is reliably GOOD. Maltby, Draper and Homer have not been reliable that way for at least a year.

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06-15-2009, 09:59 PM
  #66
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Didn't Leino play with Hossa in the regular season, and weren't they pretty good together? Or am I remembering wrong?
i remember myself complaining about that line.

filppula and hossa simply outskated leino which was my problem with that line. both started the attack while leino was not able to keep up the pace.

leino is simply not a great skater, so he should play with guys who don't rely that much on speed. zetterberg seems to be an ideal linemate for leino. zetterberg knows how to get the puck into the zone and how to keep it in. leino is similar along the boards.

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06-15-2009, 10:14 PM
  #67
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You asked regardless of their contract status But, still, yes. Though I think it's a bit unfair to compare Kronwall's contrac to either of Stuart or Rafalski, as it was signed at an entirely different point in his career. Would we be able to sign Kronwall for $3m right now? I doubt it.
I did say that, didn't I?

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06-15-2009, 11:04 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Well, it is next year we're interested in, right? I mean, it's in the thread title and whatnot...

I would like to see Leino get a chance to work out some of the kinks in the regular season in the hopes that by playoff time, he could be playing at a high level at both ends of the rink.

In the playoffs, if anything I thought he was too cautious in the offensive zone and did not make enough aggressive moves toward the net. That's a balance he will work on and either he'll continue to develop, or he'll be a 3rd liner that chips in.

Leino also scored as many goals with the big club as Maltby, nearly as many points, and was a +5 compared to Maltby's -9 with the big club. That's in 65 fewer games.

And Maltby's minus can't be chalked up to him playing against elite offensive players anymore either, because he was used mostly as an energy player and not a defensive stopper. That was a preemptive SHH!

Didn't Leino play with Hossa in the regular season, and weren't they pretty good together? Or am I remembering wrong?

Reliable is only a good thing if a player is reliably GOOD. Maltby, Draper and Homer have not been reliable that way for at least a year.
ah, but Fugu also asked about "right now"

I don't doubt Leino's ability to put up points. That's his job and he should put up more points and have a better +/- than Maltby. But I still trust Maltby more if something is really on the line. He might not score much but he also won't give up much. That's not exactly a glowing description but that's damn valuable to me - especially for, what, $875k? I'll take it.

By this time next year, I expect Leino to be higher. I think (hope) he'll be more assertive and make better decisions. But, right now, I value Maltby (and Draper and Holmstrom) more.

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06-16-2009, 01:43 AM
  #69
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I know this sounds crazy but could we sighn federov and have him play defence? I rememeber we had him do that before.
im not sure if thid thread meantioned this but is draper or malby going to retire? they didnt seem as effective this year on the pk as they normall are.

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06-16-2009, 01:49 AM
  #70
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I know this sounds crazy but could we sighn federov and have him play defence? I rememeber we had him do that before.
im not sure if thid thread meantioned this but is draper or malby going to retire? they didnt seem as effective this year on the pk as they normall are.
Unless he's taking a massive discount to come home, no chance at Feds. Sadly.

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06-16-2009, 02:51 AM
  #71
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If Homer retires now, can we get his salary off the cap? The contract was made under 35 etc... He sounded kind of frustraded to his wrecking body at the Mlive.

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06-16-2009, 06:13 AM
  #72
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If Homer retires now, can we get his salary off the cap? The contract was made under 35 etc... He sounded kind of frustraded to his wrecking body at the Mlive.
Yes. His salary would no longer count against the cap.

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06-16-2009, 06:54 AM
  #73
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So what if we put Homer and Lilja to LTIR for the whole next season? Let them heal totally and put them to 2 week conditioning stint right before the playoffs to the AHL. And then get them to the playoffs as the black aces WITHOUT ANY CAPHIT?

I'd give Hossa 1 year deal at Homer's salary as an LTIR replacement, and then we would look like this at the regular season:

Dats (6.7) - Zeta (6.08) - Cleary (2.8)
Mule (3.95) - Flip (3.0) - Hossa (2.25)
Leino (1.0) - Helm (598k) - Sammy (1.5)
Kopy (0.7) - Draper (1.58) - Maltby (883k)
13th (500k) - 14th (500k)

Hudler lost for offer-sheet.

Lidas (7.45) - Raffy (6.0)
Kronner (3.0) - Stuart (3.75)
Lebda (650k) - Ericsson (900k)
Meech (483k)

No need for Cheli.

Ozzie (1.41)
Howard (717k)

No need for Conklin.

56,419 million payroll. Maybe under the cap, or not.

The actual payroll is 59,919 million, but if Homer and Lilja are at LTIR the whole regular season (like Hatcher and Rathje were at Philly) they would not count against the cap.

And when the playoffs start, we take fresh Homer and Lillypads up if we really need them. Also Abdelkader, Larsson and Kindl would be those black aces.

***

I know this is really crazy scenario, but only one how I can fit Hossa there, and keep enought the core together and not trading any big salary.

After that 1-year deal for Hossa we negotiate an extension at january 2010 for a caphit of 5 million. Then Lidström will take a huge 5-6 million paycut to solve the cap-room problem for the 2010-11 season. Homer and Maltby will also help the cap by retirement.

This is even more crazy scenario, but still the only way how I can see Marian long-term in our team.

Maybe the easiest way is to just let him walk.


Last edited by Henkka: 06-16-2009 at 07:00 AM.
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06-16-2009, 08:01 AM
  #74
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i dont think hossa is an adequit replacment for homer. we need someone whos gonna stand in froun and screnn the goalie. he is bug enough but would he actually do it?

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06-16-2009, 08:11 AM
  #75
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We have the Mule and Cleary to screen the goalies as you know.

But the Homer salary is quite near the maximun, what Hossa can get from Holland. Kenny is not going to blow the team, he'll keep enough guys and leave that room for Hossa.

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