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Rumor: Kaberle to The Wild for Zidlicky and Harding

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Old
06-18-2009, 07:43 PM
  #176
AlMo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
hard to believe i'm being the mediator between the two guys i troll the most,...lol

But Carter was playing decent until he was injured into the boards.

Kaberle's overrated; personally i'd take that offer off Zidlicky + Harding.

Zidlicky's output is almost as good as Kaberle's and he's only a year older.
Really no need to be a mediator. I'm not argue this one with Moose because it's a really a moot point. The Leafs still have Kaberle and the Flyers still have Carter, the ship has sailed

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06-18-2009, 08:03 PM
  #177
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Burke dismissed this, close thread.

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06-18-2009, 08:06 PM
  #178
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Burke dismissed this, close thread.
Yep, you're right. Let's wait until Kaberle actually gets dealt before we argue about him......we have done this a thousand times already.

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06-18-2009, 11:39 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by HockeyAustralia View Post
Awww cmonnnn....This would be an insult to every Leaf fan who has waited for Kabby to be traded
...and the ones who dont want him to be traded.

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06-19-2009, 12:20 AM
  #180
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...and the ones who dont want him to be traded.
It would be an insult to them as well, no?

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06-19-2009, 12:23 AM
  #181
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As others have stated Mr.Burke came out and denied this awful rumour.

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06-19-2009, 12:05 PM
  #182
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Well the dealing has begun

Quote:
The Phoenix Coyotes may be in bankruptcy but they continue to do business.

Phoenix has traded centre Steve Reinprecht to the Florida Panthers in exchange for Stefan Meyer.

The Coyotes have also signed forward Petr Prucha to a two-year deal.

Reinprecht, meanwhile, has signed a three-year deal with the Panthers.

Reinprecht's three-year deal has a cap hit of $2.050 million. He will get $1.8 million in the first year and $2.175 million in each of the following two years.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=282319
So I would expect the rumours to flow fast and furious now leading up to the entry draft.

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06-19-2009, 12:53 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
How does it drive up his value or make him more attrative?
Because he costs anywhere from a third to 50% less.

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THink about the UFa dmen that were signed last season. Campbell got 7+ million why wouldn't Hawks just deal for the bargain called Kaberle? Hainsey to ATL? THis summer it will be Bouwmeester before Kaberle and so on and so on. Using the UFA market to justify value in trades just doesn't work. If Kaberle's value goes higher with each and every signing he would have been the most valuable dman in the league by now and there really shouldn't be one team that wouldn't want him. Is Cap space important? Most definantly but so are prospect and picks which coincide with the salary cap. Teams just don't want to give away young players on entry level contracts right now. This isn't really hard to see.
I have no idea what you're going on about, but the point was that UFAs have to be paid more than Kaberle. Cap space/allocation is, again, the most important thing. I can guarantee you that Chicago(and a good number of their fans) would love to move Campbell's contract.

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There are plenty of options out there. You are making it seem like Kaberle is Nik Lidstrom. You think Kaberle is the only good puck mover in the NHL? Aside from that he is weak in his own zone. You are pretty much getting a guy that can pass the puck and run a PP (even at that, he's not one of the best anymore). You might not be getting a dman for the 4.25 but you also get to keep your first rd pick and prospects.
No, I'm not making him seem like Lidstrom. Exaggeration won't work, so you might as well stop it now. He is not weak in his own zone, this is simply a fabrication.

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The Kaberle rumours have gone long and far in between. Even at the deadline, there never really was a mention of interested teams. There is interest out there but right it could be a minimal interest.
But how would you know that one way or the other? I don't really go by Eklund. Forsberg was an e4 to Nashville at one point.

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Ofcourse you're not assuming he's going to be traded but you assume that he will get the value you desire. You jump all over the Minny proposal but how do you there is anything better? Sure you sit there and say "then fine Kaberle isn't going anywhere" but that isn't because you're dictating the situation there are no offers for him, Burke puts him out there and quite frankly no one will overpay for him.
The problem with terms like "overpay" is that you need a baseline value for the player to judge that. And you've shown that you don't have much idea of how good Kaberle is. You've let yourself be blinded by a poor squad around him. I agree, if Burke doesn't get value Kaberle will stay, which should be the case for any player. We don't need to move him. The difference is that I consider that value fair, while you consider it overpayment.

Quote:
What Burke says in one thing and what he does is another. This is the same Burke that said Antropov is worth a 1st round pick......never knew the first round was 50 picks deep. This is the same Burke who ripped Heatley and said he has no interest in him at all because of the trade demand but a couple of seasons back he went out and got Pronger through the same scenerio. I don't care what Burke feeds the media he despises. Actions speak a whole lot louder than words in the hockey world.
Actually, what Burke said was that he was lucky to get a 2nd round pick for Antropov's rental, and even that only happened after Nik was called out and his play got better.

Also, Pronger and Heatley were not the same scenario.

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When I say something it's usual accuarate. This is the Leafs board where every Leafs player is overrated. Not everyone is guilty of this but the majority is in fact I can say you are the majority. Yeah I get it TOmas Kaberle the top 10 dman of the NHL, every team needs him, he has the best contract in the history of sport. This is only your opinion and really doesn't matter to me at all.
Your opinion doesn't mean anything to me either, nor does the fact that you apparently consider yourself smarter than everyone else. It's just a messageboard. You're wrong about Kaberle, because you've jumped on a populist HFBoards bandwagon, and I have no problem telling you that. Pretty cut and dried.

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I clearly said trades aren't that simple. The deal was on the table and Kaberle nixed it. He could have been moved but he wasn't. That Carter deal is long gone and you'll ever get it back
Fascinating. You've managed to try and twist this around back on me, but I'm not going to let you do it. You say there's no market or interest out there, I give you an excellent trade that actually was on the table, and you somehow repeat your original statement, like it's supposed to make some sort of sense.

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Kaberle's regression is going to be blamed on everyone around him right? How bout Kaberle's lack of desire? How about his poor defensive play which goes further than last season?
I really don't know what you're talking about. He isn't poor defensively, and I'd love to see you explain the "desire" thing.

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The decline is team quality was not the reason for Kabby's play but rather Kabby's play was the reason for the decline in team quality. Kaberle's numbers didn't drop because of his teammates, it was due to his uninspired play. The guy quit on his team which shows the type of character he is (which really was never anything special to begin with).
Total garbage. Where do you get this rubbish from? How on earth can you support this claim?

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If you want to use the excuse of better teammates then why would you want him? So Kaberle only thrives with talent around? So he really isn't that good is he? So would Kovalchuk score 100 goals playing with Malkin? Mark Streit had a boatload of points playing with nobody on the Island, what would he have done with better linemates?
....



You're just getting silly now.

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Look at what Visnovsky got when he was dealt, Stoll and Matt Greene I believe. At the time Visnovsky was a better offensive dman and probably making as much if not less. I stated the return would be similar, you can even throw Boyle into the mix. A first rounder (a late one at that) and Wishart (a pretty good prospect).
But there was interest in those players, right? Why wouldn't you just sign a UFA instead? Is it because Boyle and Visnovsky are much superior defencemen to Kaberle?

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Never said he was, I'll say it for the third time. The NHL has changed. There WAS a time when you would get first rounders for rentals and during THAT time Kabby would have gotten the Leafs a whole lot more but THOSE days are gone. MEANING teams don't deal away first rounders anymore. One first round pick was dealt this year.....compare that to years past and you'll see a substantial difference. Do you understand?
I always did understand, you just don't really have a point here. I never disagreed that teams are more reluctant. But for a very good player like Kaberle (or Jokinen, from this past deadline) they will do it. I've already told you that.

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This makes no sense. Kaberle has value but you need a taker. It's like walking into a store and not buying something because you feel it's too expensive right now. Maybe you'll wait a few months and see if it goes on sale. Thats how I look at the Kaberle situation. I definantly want a good package for Kaberle, as a matter of fact I want Ovechkin for kaberle but I want and what i'll get are two different things
How can you expect a "good package" when he's a guy who quit on his team, is poor defensively, rapidly declining, and for whom there really isn't much interest? Deal with the contradictions in your arguments. That was what I was saying.

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IMHO I have no idea at this point. Is Minny a serious suitor? Maybe Columbus? Maybe Vancouver? I don't work for the Leafs remember
So what is it about Minny or Columbus or Vancouver that makes them different from all the other teams who would rather spend 7 million on a free agent?

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06-19-2009, 01:51 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Because he costs anywhere from a third to 50% less.



I have no idea what you're going on about, but the point was that UFAs have to be paid more than Kaberle. Cap space/allocation is, again, the most important thing. I can guarantee you that Chicago(and a good number of their fans) would love to move Campbell's contract.



No, I'm not making him seem like Lidstrom. Exaggeration won't work, so you might as well stop it now. He is not weak in his own zone, this is simply a fabrication.



But how would you know that one way or the other? I don't really go by Eklund. Forsberg was an e4 to Nashville at one point.



The problem with terms like "overpay" is that you need a baseline value for the player to judge that. And you've shown that you don't have much idea of how good Kaberle is. You've let yourself be blinded by a poor squad around him. I agree, if Burke doesn't get value Kaberle will stay, which should be the case for any player. We don't need to move him. The difference is that I consider that value fair, while you consider it overpayment.



Actually, what Burke said was that he was lucky to get a 2nd round pick for Antropov's rental, and even that only happened after Nik was called out and his play got better.

Also, Pronger and Heatley were not the same scenario.



Your opinion doesn't mean anything to me either, nor does the fact that you apparently consider yourself smarter than everyone else. It's just a messageboard. You're wrong about Kaberle, because you've jumped on a populist HFBoards bandwagon, and I have no problem telling you that. Pretty cut and dried.



Fascinating. You've managed to try and twist this around back on me, but I'm not going to let you do it. You say there's no market or interest out there, I give you an excellent trade that actually was on the table, and you somehow repeat your original statement, like it's supposed to make some sort of sense.



I really don't know what you're talking about. He isn't poor defensively, and I'd love to see you explain the "desire" thing.



Total garbage. Where do you get this rubbish from? How on earth can you support this claim?



....



You're just getting silly now.



But there was interest in those players, right? Why wouldn't you just sign a UFA instead? Is it because Boyle and Visnovsky are much superior defencemen to Kaberle?



I always did understand, you just don't really have a point here. I never disagreed that teams are more reluctant. But for a very good player like Kaberle (or Jokinen, from this past deadline) they will do it. I've already told you that.



How can you expect a "good package" when he's a guy who quit on his team, is poor defensively, rapidly declining, and for whom there really isn't much interest? Deal with the contradictions in your arguments. That was what I was saying.



So what is it about Minny or Columbus or Vancouver that makes them different from all the other teams who would rather spend 7 million on a free agent?

Really Volcano, I have no patience to keep picking apart each point. It really looks like this is well over your head. Pretending not to undertand what Im talking about.

You think Kaberle is this fantastic dman for the Leafs or elite or top 10 whatever you wanna call him nowadays.

Fact remains that Kaberle remains a Leafs and no one has stepped up with Burke's asking price until now for a reason.

Fact remains that since Kaberle has been signed teams have went out and wasted boatloads on dmen instead of dealing for the inexpensive Kaberle.

Until Kaberle is traded you really have nothing on me expect you opinion. You think Kaberle is this elite defender in the NHL, I think his a very good one. You think he's worth whatever Burke wants, I don't.

Considering that Kaberle's play last season was less than desirable teams won't give the package I want. The problem is you sit there and pretend Kaberle has high value and teams will pay to get him and then you use Jokinen as the example? A 1st rounder in 2010, Lombardi and Prust? You're kidding right? Is this what you want for Kaberle? You sit there rambling on on how I don't make sense, what I say is garbage and at the end of the day you find a deal like that to be acceptable. A first rounder and 2 3rd liners for a player that was once considered a number 1 center in this league.

Look at all your arguments man, you really have no facts whatsoever to back your **** up. Using questions as an answer, calling it garbage, saying it makes no sense, calling me silly, .........you truely are convincing there bud. GO waste someone elses time, you have been a weak poster on here for quite some time and I have should have known from the get go that I shouldn't have wasted my time. Until now you haven't made one fact and yet you have the balls to call my points garbage.......just move on, this Kaberle thing has been beaten to death. When the day comes and he's been traded, then maybe we can sit down and talk about it.

For the record, I said Kaberle for Harding and Zidlicky was a definate pass....I never said it was a fair deal or overpayment. Check back because when you say I consider it an overpayment I don't really know what you're talking about.

What Burke gave up for Pronger he will not get for Kaberle right now and Brian Burke was asking for a 1st rounder for Antropov and no one in their right mind was going to do that, now you say he was lucky enough to get a 2nd....Burke must have been way off the mark there, so he may be way off with Kaberle as well. Yes Visnovsky and Boyle were dealt

Boyle - 1st rounder, Ty Wishart, Matt Carle this is somewhat realistic
Visnovsky - Stoll and Greene and can't remember if a first was involved, once gain realistic.

I never once said Kaberle was worth less, that why I used them as examples.


Last edited by AlMo: 06-19-2009 at 01:58 PM.
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06-19-2009, 02:24 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
Really Volcano, I have no patience to keep picking apart each point. It really looks like this is well over your head. Pretending not to undertand what Im talking about.
No problem. Nothing went over my head, though. You just can't back up what you say. Explain how Kaberle quit on the team? You can't, because it's BS that you simply made up.

Quote:
Fact remains that Kaberle remains a Leafs and no one has stepped up with Burke's asking price until now for a reason.
And you believe that reason is that there's no(or minimal) interest in him. That's really what we differ on. I never said Kaberle is Lidstrom, that is just a strawman. Myself, I think it's because Burke realizes how good he is and would rather keep him. He's one of the few really good contracts we have.

Quote:
Until Kaberle is traded you really have nothing on me expect you opinion. You think Kaberle is this elite defender in the NHL, I think his a very good one. You think he's worth whatever Burke wants, I don't.
No, I never said he was elite, although he has reached that point at times. He is a very good, allstar player, who can reach the elite level. Believe me, getting "something on you" is of no interest to me whatsoever.

Quote:
Considering that Kaberle's play last season was less than desirable teams won't give the package I want. The problem is you sit there and pretend Kaberle has high value and teams will pay to get him and then you use Jokinen as the example? A 1st rounder in 2010, Lombardi and Prust? You're kidding right? Is this what you want for Kaberle? You sit there rambling on on how I don't make sense, what I say is garbage and at the end of the day you find a deal like that to be acceptable. A first rounder and 2 3rd liners for a player that was once considered a number 1 center in this league.
What package do you want? I used Jokinen as a recent example of a team still being willing to give up a 1st round pick for a certain quality of player, when we were discussing the new-found reluctance of teams to give those assets up. That's it, that's all.

Quote:
Look at all your arguments man, you really have no facts whatsoever to back your **** up. Using questions as an answer, calling it garbage, saying it makes no sense, calling me silly, .........you truely are convincing there bud. GO waste someone elses time, you have been a weak poster on here for quite some time and I have should have known from the get go that I shouldn't have wasted my time. Until now you haven't made one fact and yet you have the balls to call my points garbage.......just move on, this Kaberle thing has been beaten to death. When the day comes and he's been traded, then maybe we can sit down and talk about it.
I've patiently outlined things for you, with facts included. Your method is to go off on tangents and come up with silly analogies that don't go anywhere. When that doesn't work, you've gotten condescending because you think you're some kind of top poster who sees more than "the majority". So far you've stated all kinds of things about Kaberle with no proof whatsoever, other than that you think you're right all the time.

Despite your insults, again, I don't think you're a bad poster at all. The only thing I've commented on was about the negativity on any trade that gets posted, I'm sorry that angered you but it was just an observation. It's also interesting that you repeatedly say you won't make your own trade proposals because you "don't work for the Leafs", yet at the same time feel free to cut down every single one because you're smarter than the great unwashed who make these proposals. Whatever.

In conclusion, I think if Kaberle makes it through this summer he's going to stay. And that would be fine by me, as I've said before.

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06-19-2009, 06:28 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
No problem. Nothing went over my head, though. You just can't back up what you say. Explain how Kaberle quit on the team? You can't, because it's BS that you simply made up.



And you believe that reason is that there's no(or minimal) interest in him. That's really what we differ on. I never said Kaberle is Lidstrom, that is just a strawman. Myself, I think it's because Burke realizes how good he is and would rather keep him. He's one of the few really good contracts we have.



No, I never said he was elite, although he has reached that point at times. He is a very good, allstar player, who can reach the elite level. Believe me, getting "something on you" is of no interest to me whatsoever.



What package do you want? I used Jokinen as a recent example of a team still being willing to give up a 1st round pick for a certain quality of player, when we were discussing the new-found reluctance of teams to give those assets up. That's it, that's all.



I've patiently outlined things for you, with facts included. Your method is to go off on tangents and come up with silly analogies that don't go anywhere. When that doesn't work, you've gotten condescending because you think you're some kind of top poster who sees more than "the majority". So far you've stated all kinds of things about Kaberle with no proof whatsoever, other than that you think you're right all the time.

Despite your insults, again, I don't think you're a bad poster at all. The only thing I've commented on was about the negativity on any trade that gets posted, I'm sorry that angered you but it was just an observation. It's also interesting that you repeatedly say you won't make your own trade proposals because you "don't work for the Leafs", yet at the same time feel free to cut down every single one because you're smarter than the great unwashed who make these proposals. Whatever.

In conclusion, I think if Kaberle makes it through this summer he's going to stay. And that would be fine by me, as I've said before.
So is it safe to say that we can continue this conversation if and when Kaberle gets dealt?

Wouldn't that be the appropriate time to analyze the return? Even though we argue we all have the same common goal.....we want the Leafs to get better, am I right? Don't assume I'm angry, quite frankly I don't care what others think. I'm not sitting down in front of me computer with rage in my eyes thinking "I gotta get that Volcanologist". If I disagree with many trades it's really my opinion, you don't have to read them. If someone puts out a proposal they have to expect negativity. Let's face it most of the time, the proposals around are ridiculous and every so often when one comes around that makes sense for both parties I will be positive about it. We look at proposals different ways, why does it bother you? Does it matter I don't like? I don't make the trades in the NHL, I can only give my opinion on them.

Honestly Volcano, if you think I get personal at any point and feel offended, then I apologize, I really do. I am fully with you when you Kaberle will still be a Leaf next season, we just see differently as to why. Like I said when the time comes we'll discuss then.

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06-19-2009, 07:15 PM
  #187
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Kaberle has sucked for 2 years now. I'd be happy to get just Zidlicky for him.

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06-19-2009, 07:53 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by SpitfireCrayn View Post
Kaberle has sucked for 2 years now. I'd be happy to get just Zidlicky for him.
Well no offense, but I'm glad you are not the Leafs GM.

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06-20-2009, 07:45 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by SpitfireCrayn View Post
Kaberle has sucked for 2 years now. I'd be happy to get just Zidlicky for him.
And you have been a poster for 2 years?

Hmmmm.

Come on Kabs, get off the Net and start working out.

Maybe the deal is Kaberle for Zidlicky, Harding and rights to Gaborik?

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06-20-2009, 11:33 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
So is it safe to say that we can continue this conversation if and when Kaberle gets dealt?

Wouldn't that be the appropriate time to analyze the return? Even though we argue we all have the same common goal.....we want the Leafs to get better, am I right? Don't assume I'm angry, quite frankly I don't care what others think. I'm not sitting down in front of me computer with rage in my eyes thinking "I gotta get that Volcanologist". If I disagree with many trades it's really my opinion, you don't have to read them. If someone puts out a proposal they have to expect negativity. Let's face it most of the time, the proposals around are ridiculous and every so often when one comes around that makes sense for both parties I will be positive about it. We look at proposals different ways, why does it bother you? Does it matter I don't like? I don't make the trades in the NHL, I can only give my opinion on them.

Honestly Volcano, if you think I get personal at any point and feel offended, then I apologize, I really do. I am fully with you when you Kaberle will still be a Leaf next season, we just see differently as to why. Like I said when the time comes we'll discuss then.
I actually don't think we're disagreeing on all that much in the end, lol. No offence was taken at all. If Kaberle is dealt for crap, then I will freely admit I was wrong, in the middle of cursing Burkie's name of course.

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06-20-2009, 01:18 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by SpitfireCrayn View Post
Kaberle has sucked for 2 years now. I'd be happy to get just Zidlicky for him.
Go back to the Habs board please.

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06-20-2009, 01:21 PM
  #192
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http://www.spectorshockey.net/index....umors&Itemid=4

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TORONTO SUN: Steve Buffery reports Maple Leafs GM Brian Burke dismissed a rumor suggesting he'd send veteran blueliner Tomas Kaberle to the Minnesota Wild for goalie Josh Harding and defenseman Marek Zidlicky.

SPECTOR'S NOTE: Hat tip to "Taylor". I think that rumor had its origins from a Wild message forum as it certainly sounds like wishful thinking.
Wishful thinking indeed.

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06-20-2009, 01:58 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
I actually don't think we're disagreeing on all that much in the end, lol. No offence was taken at all. If Kaberle is dealt for crap, then I will freely admit I was wrong, in the middle of cursing Burkie's name of course.
With Kaberle's value set at Jeff Carter and a 1st one year ago, I can certainly see your position.

Burke should be smart enough to not trade Kaberle for crap, so you should be safe on that part, however I don't see him getting as good a deal as was agreed upon on trade deadline day 2008 either, every again.

That previous Philly/Tor trade would have been a Win Win for both teams..

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06-20-2009, 02:12 PM
  #194
cupcrazyman
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you can never have too many goalies in your system.

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Old
06-20-2009, 02:30 PM
  #195
AlMo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
I actually don't think we're disagreeing on all that much in the end, lol. No offence was taken at all. If Kaberle is dealt for crap, then I will freely admit I was wrong, in the middle of cursing Burkie's name of course.
I certainly hope Kaberle is not dealt for crap. The Leafs really don't have to trade him. I am in favour of dealing Kaberle as I don't see him as part of the Leafs future. He has 2 years remaining on his contract, after that he will want a considerable pay rise and 4.25 million dollar Kaberle is alot diffrent than a 5.75-6 million dollar Kaberle. If Burke gets the deal that helps the Leafs I am all for it but I would have no problem a keeping around for another season and a half at least.

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