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Carcillo/Talbot - Turning point of Game 6 or scapegoat? (from Kings rumor thread)

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06-20-2009, 03:27 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I don't really buy this too much seeing as this was Game 3 of a 7 game series, why didn't they fight again later then?. Plus, maybe the smart thing for Upshall to do would be to draw a 5 minute major on Green and then fight him in the last minute or two assuming we are still up by 2 goals...

Again, I don't have a problem with either fight though.
Probably because Boudreau told him it was a ****ing stupid thing to do, and to keep his ass out of the box because they needed him on the ice.

I mean, seriously, would you or would you not be furious if Richards or Timonen, for example, threw a temper tantrum when we were down in a game and got themselves taken off for 5 minutes? Because that's what Green did...he was pissed off, lost his cool, and decided to pick a fight with Upshall.

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06-20-2009, 03:29 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Actually, I believe Lupul did get sat (not for a game) and was moved to the 4th line a number of times.
He WAS moved to the 4th line for parts of a few games and he may have been sat for a period of a game but I can't rememebr him ever actually being benched for an entire game (I may be wrong, I just don't remember it).

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06-20-2009, 03:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Seriously, quote me saying that. You put words in people's mouth all the friggin time. QUOTE ME SAYING CARCILLO GAVE THEM ALL THE MOMENTUM.

What I said, is that the defense of Carcillo's decision to fight Talbot at that time of place is hypocritical or indefensible. I have not once stated we lost that game because of Carcillo. But if the argument for fighting in hockey is that players can use it to fire up their team, then you cannot come up with a good defense for Carcillo choosing -- because it was absolutely a choice -- to fight a Pens role player.

So show a little bit of intellectual honesty and stop skewing what people state.
I personally think that fighting as a tool of momentum is overrated. Maybe it gives you a 5 minute boost, but this isn't the 1970s, the team that wins the game probably isn't going to win because of a fight. I think that after the game, the Pens probably liked to use the fight as a supposed "rallying point" (probably to shove it in our faces), but I don't think it really was. They were the better team and they won the game.

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Originally Posted by Jester
I will take an Upshall-type for Green swap any time it's offered if I have a two goal lead in the third. I don't care if they got fired up, they're fired up with friggin Tom Poti leading the charge from the blue line at that point.
The point is that Green missed 2 minutes, as I said, 1/13 of the time he would have played. We're not talking about a 10 minute misconduct here.

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Originally Posted by Jester
Green probably would have played another 2.5 minutes in the third period of that game if he hadn't been in the box.
Whoops, make that 2:30 apparently, big difference. So I guess Green missed 1/12 of the game instead of 1/13, close call.

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06-20-2009, 03:31 PM
  #54
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If Carcillo doesn't drop the gloves and Talbot gets a minor and the Pens kill it and come back and win.....who's fault would that be? Would he not be allowing the Pens back in the game? Just wondering

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06-20-2009, 03:32 PM
  #55
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FWIW... I was at the game and elated until that fight. While the crowd was going crazy over the fight and the score, I was upset at what had occurred... No matter what happened from there on out, I was irate that they would fight at such a point.

What happened thereafter, coincidence or not, only makes me feel that sadly I was correct in my discomfort.

That was a sad, sad game from that point on.

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06-20-2009, 03:32 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Probably because Boudreau told him it was a ****ing stupid thing to do, and to keep his ass out of the box because they needed him on the ice.

I mean, seriously, would you or would you not be furious if Richards or Timonen, for example, threw a temper tantrum when we were down in a game and got themselves taken off for 5 minutes? Because that's what Green did...he was pissed off, lost his cool, and decided to pick a fight with Upshall.
Depends on the specific situation, but I might not have a problem with it, I believe Richie has fought several times when we're losing in order to try to fire guys up. I mean, the Caps definitely had the upper hand in most of the 3rd period (I read a lot of posts in that GDT talking about how we were pinned in our own zone), if they had gotten a bounce or two, we could be talking about Mike Green as the hero who stood up to Scottie Upshall.

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06-20-2009, 03:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Whoops, make that 2:30 apparently, big difference. So I guess Green missed 1/12 of the game instead of 1/13, close call.
Yes, because offensive plays in hockey take oh so long to develop. If a PP happens in those five minutes...Green would not be out for ANY of it. If there's a rush up ice in those five minutes...Green would not be involved in it.

Your point here...is incredibly weak and disingenuous. It suggests that 5 minutes of game time is insignificant.

But lets narrow this down even further, because, as I've stated, time and score are important to consider. With 20 minutes left in the game Mike Green eliminated himself from play for 25% of the remaining game.

25% of the time his team was trying to make up a 2 goal deficit in a playoff game, he was sitting in the penalty box, and Upshall put him there.

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06-20-2009, 03:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Depends on the specific situation, but I might not have a problem with it, I believe Richie has fought several times when we're losing in order to try to fire guys up. I mean, the Caps definitely had the upper hand in most of the 3rd period (I read a lot of posts in that GDT talking about how we were pinned in our own zone), if they had gotten a bounce or two, we could be talking about Mike Green as the hero who stood up to Scottie Upshall.
You do that in the 1st or 2nd period when you have a lot of game time left. You don't do it in the third period when you have limited time to make it up.

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06-20-2009, 03:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
If Carcillo doesn't drop the gloves and Talbot gets a minor and the Pens kill it and come back and win.....who's fault would that be? Would he not be allowing the Pens back in the game? Just wondering
We can play the 'if' game till the cows come home... Fact is the Flyers were up and soundly in control, Carcillo fights Talbot, the Pens muster up and the Flyers fold like a cheap tent. You do the math, based on the facts that actually happened and not any ifs.

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06-20-2009, 03:40 PM
  #60
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I laugh at the hypocrisy on this board. Thanks Fly for exposing the truth. Now people trying to still justify it. Its all Carcillos fault isn't it??? So many things went wrong after the fight. The team went into a shell like the game was over. I haven't yet heard anybody mention why John Stevens didn't call a timeout after that second quick goal???? Get off the bash Carcillo ********. The whole team sank. Coaches included.

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06-20-2009, 03:43 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, because offensive plays in hockey take oh so long to develop. If a PP happens in those five minutes...Green would not be out for ANY of it. If there's a rush up ice in those five minutes...Green would not be involved in it.

Your point here...is incredibly weak and disingenuous. It suggests that 5 minutes of game time is insignificant.

But lets narrow this down even further, because, as I've stated, time and score are important to consider. With 20 minutes left in the game Mike Green eliminated himself from play for 25% of the remaining game.

25% of the time his team was trying to make up a 2 goal deficit in a playoff game, he was sitting in the penalty box, and Upshall put him there.
If...if...if...if...

What if Carter's line had gotten a great chance and Upshall had finished yet to make it a 3 goal game and to salt the thing away.

You have to consider a couple things here about the context of the game.

WSH got shutout on home ice in Game 2, got blitzed in the opening period of Game 3, pulled it back to 3-2, and then Briere scored with 10 ticks left in the 2nd period to make it a 2 goal game again.

For a lot of the guys in that locker room, it's their first playoffs, lots of uncertainty, and to top it all off, you have this pain in the ass (Upshall) running around the ice and he won't fight one of your big boys like Cooke and Brashear.

Maybe Green decided to take on Upshall to send a message to his teammates while letting out some of his frustration at the same time? We'll never know.

As for 5 minutes, that's 1/12 of a hockey game. Not "insignificant", but not a huge amount of time either. Considering that the Caps played pretty darn well in that 3rd period, I don't think it was necessarily a dumb thing to do by Green although as I've said, the impact of fights can be slightly overrated.

I should add that Green got out of the box with 15 minutes left and probably played 7 or 8 of those minutes, that's a heckuva lot of time especially for a team that can score like Washington.

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06-20-2009, 03:50 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
If...if...if...if...
Of course it's IF IF IF...

When you choose to do something with potential future consequences they are not set in stone. So, it's a gamble...it's a choice about what you would rather have. Would you rather have Green on the ice for the entirety of the 3rd period, or would you like to sit him down for 5 minutes?

It's all cost-benefit analysis...what's the benefit of fighting a role player like Talbot? Please tell me, other than the wonderfully humorous argument that Carcillo had to essentially protect his rep.

Quote:
As for 5 minutes, that's 1/12 of a hockey game. Not "insignificant", but not a huge amount of time either. Considering that the Caps played pretty darn well in that 3rd period, I don't think it was necessarily a dumb thing to do by Green although as I've said, the impact of fights can be slightly overrated.
The impact of fights...sure. The impact of a key player not being on the ice? I don't think that can be overrated.

Quote:
I should add that Green got out of the box with 15 minutes left and probably played 7 or 8 of those minutes, that's a heckuva lot of time especially for a team that can score like Washington.
But he had 2.5 less minutes or whatever to try and get that goal. As the clock winds down the minutes become more precious. When you're trying to get 2 goals in one period, then losing shifts is a big deal.

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06-20-2009, 03:52 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
If Carcillo doesn't drop the gloves and Talbot gets a minor and the Pens kill it and come back and win.....who's fault would that be? Would he not be allowing the Pens back in the game? Just wondering

Carcillo's fight didn't cause this team to fall back into a shell and give the Pens star players room to open up their game. The TRUTH is that we were smothering Malkin and Crosby all game long until we tried to fall back into a defensive shell and just hold on to the win. You could CLEARLY see that they were playing very different than the style of play tat got them their lead in the first place. the ****ing COACH should be shot for allowing his team to change from what got them the lead and give the Pens the space and time to get back into the game. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Carcillos fight, none at all.

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06-20-2009, 03:52 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
I laugh at the hypocrisy on this board. Thanks Fly for exposing the truth. Now people trying to still justify it. Its all Carcillos fault isn't it??? So many things went wrong after the fight. The team went into a shell like the game was over. I haven't yet heard anybody mention why John Stevens didn't call a timeout after that second quick goal???? Get off the bash Carcillo ********. The whole team sank. Coaches included.
Carcillo was far from the only reason... and I'm not even saying that he was the reason at all... What I am saying is that you don't do that in those circumstances. It was a bonehead decision on Carcillo's part.

I do say that the 'beaten' Pens were a different team from that point on... And the Flyers were also. There is plenty of blame to go around... Hatcher, Smith, Kappy still on that young team and the results may have been entirely different.

I'd just like to see the mentality of the team change... and have them fight only when it is advantageous to them, or when they are sticking up for each other... That's all.

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06-20-2009, 04:03 PM
  #65
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If you get in a fight and lose THEN I can see it being a boneheaded decission that could cost your team the win. I have NEVER seen a player beat the living **** out of another player and cost his team the win because be beat the **** out of the other guy AND GOT HIS TEAM A PP TO BOOT.

The other team NEVER gets inspired by seeing their player get the ever-living crap beaten out of them, sorry but it just doesn't work that way. We had them down and had our foot on their throats. Carcillo kicked them hard to the stomach and knocked the wind out of them. Then Stevens had us go into a shell and let them up off the mat. THAT'S essentially what happened, not that a team suddenly woke up because they liked watchingk their teammate get beaten to a bloddy pulp and put his team down a man.

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06-20-2009, 04:21 PM
  #66
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Phlocky, Carcillo did not get his team a PP when he fought Talbot.

4:06 Briere scores PP goal, Flyers up 3-0.
4:21 Carcillo mauls Talbot. Each 5 for fighting.
4:35 Fedentenko scores ES goal, Flyers up 3-1.
4:35 Coburn and Malkin each 2 mins for roughing.

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06-20-2009, 04:33 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Carcillo was far from the only reason... and I'm not even saying that he was the reason at all... What I am saying is that you don't do that in those circumstances. It was a bonehead decision on Carcillo's part.

I do say that the 'beaten' Pens were a different team from that point on... And the Flyers were also. There is plenty of blame to go around... Hatcher, Smith, Kappy still on that young team and the results may have been entirely different.

I'd just like to see the mentality of the team change... and have them fight only when it is advantageous to them, or when they are sticking up for each other... That's all.
Dude if being at home in a elimination game. Up 3-0. Teammate just beats the crap out of a player on the other team that they hate and the crowd is buzzing. If that doesn't fire the guys up to continue to play inspired hockey then this team isn't going anywhere. They should have continued the level of play after that fight. The Carcillo blame game is just an excuse to why the team choked. Where was the captain Richards to store order??? He is not a great leader yet. The coach is a lame duck and where was the veteran leadership with Knuble, Gagne, Kimmo and Briere? The team choked.

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06-20-2009, 04:41 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
Dude if being at home in a elimination game. Up 3-0. Teammate just beats the crap out of a player on the other team that they hate and the crowd is buzzing. If that doesn't fire the guys up to continue to play inspired hockey then this team isn't going anywhere. They should have continued the level of play after that fight. The Carcillo blame game is just an excuse to why the team choked. Where was the captain Richards to store order??? He is not a great leader yet. The coach is a lame duck and where was the veteran leadership with Knuble, Gagne, Kimmo and Briere? The team choked.
You are missing the point. The Carcillo "haters" are not saying he lost the game by winning a fight. They are saying they do not like him/want him on the team because he is a STUPID player and the Talbot fight is a great example. He fights a player not known for fighting 15 seconds after we had just scored to take a 3-0 lead. The crowd was already going crazy and with that lead at home we already had all the momentum. At that point in the game Carcillo stands to gain nothing (we are in the same situation if he wins) but could potential lose everything. He would be better off letting Talbot throw punches and getting the Flyers another PP.

That said the Flyers should keep Carcillo but drop Cote. Then if Carcillo plays stupid again this year we can easily just let him walk in free agency.

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06-20-2009, 04:46 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I personally think that fighting as a tool of momentum is overrated. Maybe it gives you a 5 minute boost, but this isn't the 1970s, the team that wins the game probably isn't going to win because of a fight. I think that after the game, the Pens probably liked to use the fight as a supposed "rallying point" (probably to shove it in our faces), but I don't think it really was. They were the better team and they won the game.
I wish you guys got exposure to the talk shows up here like Off The Record. Every single NHLer, past and present, who has gone on that show and been asked about fighting explicitly states a fight gets the bench going and should never be overlooked as a momentum-swinging event.

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06-20-2009, 04:48 PM
  #70
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I don't care, I'm always going to hate Carcillo. "But he plays Flyers hockey, he's a Broad Street Bully!!!" What have those players done for us in the last 35 years?

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06-20-2009, 04:51 PM
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You are missing the point. The Carcillo "haters" are not saying he lost the game by winning a fight. They are saying they do not like him/want him on the team because he is a STUPID player and the Talbot fight is a great example. He fights a player not known for fighting 15 seconds after we had just scored to take a 3-0 lead. The crowd was already going crazy and with that lead at home we already had all the momentum. At that point in the game Carcillo stands to gain nothing (we are in the same situation if he wins) but could potential lose everything. He would be better off letting Talbot throw punches and getting the Flyers another PP.

That said the Flyers should keep Carcillo but drop Cote. Then if Carcillo plays stupid again this year we can easily just let him walk in free agency.
Hartnell is a STUPID player. He takes STUPID penalties all the time but i don't hear ****. The team choked. Face it. Remember when we where up 3-0 on the pens in game 3 Powe and Giroux got in a fight. I didn't hear anybody say anything. Its just simple. People need a scapegoat to why we lose. Somebody is always the whipping boy. Lets not trying to point one guy out to why we lost. People keep saying "No where not blaming Carcillo but he did this and that" But yet have say other reasons why we lost the game. You are right in one since. Carcillo shouldn't have fought but that wasn't the story of the game. The story was we got owned. Team choked and let the take over the game.

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06-20-2009, 04:52 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I wish you guys got exposure to the talk shows up here like Off The Record. Every single NHLer, past and present, who has gone on that show and been asked about fighting explicitly states a fight gets the bench going and should never be overlooked as a momentum-swinging event.
Yeah and it should of gave us a bigger boost. I know i would be so hyped after seeing my teammate beat the **** out of a guy who always runs his mouth. Wouldn't you?

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06-20-2009, 05:00 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I wish you guys got exposure to the talk shows up here like Off The Record. Every single NHLer, past and present, who has gone on that show and been asked about fighting explicitly states a fight gets the bench going and should never be overlooked as a momentum-swinging event.
Yeah, but is it a game decider?

I mean, hypothetically, if Talbot doesn't fight Carcillo, I still think the Pens win that game, they were better than us up to the fight and their superiority just started to tell.

I think it's a useful tool, I just wouldn't put too much into it. Plus, without trying to impugn the honesty of former NHLers, I think it would take a pretty brave NHLer to say that fighting wasn't really important because that would pretty disrespectful to the fighters in the league.

I personally think a devastating check can have a bigger impact than a fight. We all remember the Lindros-Stevens hit obviously and then for more recent viewers, there's the Sarich hit on Marleau that completely turned that game around (I think the Flames were down 3-0 at the time).

EDIT: I should add that in certain situations during the regular season, a fight can be used to fire a team up (Richards has done this on several occasions). But in the playoffs, if you aren't already really fired up, then you don't really belong there. I view fighting as a momentum tool to an extent, but more importantly, as a measure to try to prevent incidents like the Bertuzzi assault from happening.

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06-20-2009, 05:10 PM
  #74
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I have to wonder how many of the posters blasting Carcillo have played an organized team sport. The Flyers blew a 3 goal lead. Finger pointing at one guy if retarded. You want to blame Carcillo for something? Fine, blame him for the next goal the Pens scored, not the next 5. That's lazy, and relieves his team mates of all accountability.

You win as a team, you lose as a team. If you want to look at one play, or one guy and say "well after player X did thing Y it was all downhill from there"..... that's ******** man. If everything goes to hell, it's because the team let it. If one stupid mistake in the beginning of the second period of a game you're leading 3-0 is too much to overcome.....then your team wasn't winning anyway.

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06-20-2009, 05:13 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I wish you guys got exposure to the talk shows up here like Off The Record. Every single NHLer, past and present, who has gone on that show and been asked about fighting explicitly states a fight gets the bench going and should never be overlooked as a momentum-swinging event.

I agree and accept this. however, there is no way in hell you can sit there and tell me that watching your fellow player get the snot beat out of him like Talbot did against Carcillo FIRES a team up. You don't get fired up by your guy getting completely owned, sitting in the other teams building, the fans getting even MORE crazy, and your team is down 0-3. That just doesn't inspire the bench no matter how anyone tries to spin it.


The Flyers scored to take a 3-0 lead and IMMEDIATELY went into a shell to try and not lose the game instead of actually trying to WIN the god damned game. THAT is why the lost the game, not because of the fight.

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