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Carcillo/Talbot - Turning point of Game 6 or scapegoat? (from Kings rumor thread)

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Old
06-20-2009, 05:21 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
Hartnell is a STUPID player. He takes STUPID penalties all the time but i don't hear ****. The team choked. Face it. Remember when we where up 3-0 on the pens in game 3 Powe and Giroux got in a fight. I didn't hear anybody say anything. Its just simple. People need a scapegoat to why we lose. Somebody is always the whipping boy. Lets not trying to point one guy out to why we lost. People keep saying "No where not blaming Carcillo but he did this and that" But yet have say other reasons why we lost the game. You are right in one since. Carcillo shouldn't have fought but that wasn't the story of the game. The story was we got owned. Team choked and let the take over the game.
Actually the GDTs have plenty of posts pissed off at Hartnell for his stupid penalties. The difference between him and Carcillo is about 30 goals, hence why nobody wants Hartnell gone.

Giroux and Powe were also both rookies who bring much more than just fighting which is why they get a little slack.

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06-20-2009, 05:27 PM
  #77
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One more time here... The Flyers coughed up the game; it shouldn't have happened.

They were up and firmly in control... In sports of any kind a team that is winning never awakens a sleeping giant. The smart thing to do is play an uneventful game, and a smart game with little gambling, but not taking the foot off the pedal or throat.

What I was concerned about at the point of the fight, even before the Pens first goal, was the game changing to a rock'em-sock'em barn burner where the shots get cheaper, and the chances of official intervention on the outcome, or of one team being rattled... The Flyers didn't need to get any more edge in the scoring... they needed to keep the game static at worst, until the Pens were forced to press and take more chances.

Both teams were young, but the Pens were more mature... Carcillo opened up the came into that rougher game; that shouldn't have happened... The Flyers lost their cool and poise... They gave up that quick goal and went 4 on 4... The game was never the same.

To me, while Carcillo was not the goat, Carcillo should have been smart enough to know that they should go status quo, the Pens were becoming desperate and the home crowd was up and loud enough... The Flyers needed no lift, the Pens did... Carcillo gave them one and the Flyers showed why they need MORE veterans, and the young leaders were above their heads... the older leaders were not enough to stem the tide. It all comes back to what I termed a bonehead decision.


BTW; Upshall would have been roasted over an open fire had he been the one... but in this case it was done by the bargain basement player that was necessary due to the Cap... And admit it, Carcillo was here for that reason alone; to save Cap space.

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06-20-2009, 05:31 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I agree and accept this. however, there is no way in hell you can sit there and tell me that watching your fellow player get the snot beat out of him like Talbot did against Carcillo FIRES a team up. You don't get fired up by your guy getting completely owned, sitting in the other teams building, the fans getting even MORE crazy, and your team is down 0-3. That just doesn't inspire the bench no matter how anyone tries to spin it.


The Flyers scored to take a 3-0 lead and IMMEDIATELY went into a shell to try and not lose the game instead of actually trying to WIN the god damned game. THAT is why the lost the game, not because of the fight.
You get fired up by watching your teammate take on a giant, and display great heart... Richards has played that card in the past and people recognize that fact then. The team unites more that gets fired up... if that is a better term.

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06-20-2009, 05:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I have to wonder how many of the posters blasting Carcillo have played an organized team sport. The Flyers blew a 3 goal lead. Finger pointing at one guy if retarded. You want to blame Carcillo for something? Fine, blame him for the next goal the Pens scored, not the next 5. That's lazy, and relieves his team mates of all accountability.

You win as a team, you lose as a team. If you want to look at one play, or one guy and say "well after player X did thing Y it was all downhill from there"..... that's ******** man. If everything goes to hell, it's because the team let it. If one stupid mistake in the beginning of the second period of a game you're leading 3-0 is too much to overcome.....then your team wasn't winning anyway.
I suppose we have not gotten our point across well enough.

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06-20-2009, 05:38 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ph View Post
Actually the GDTs have plenty of posts pissed off at Hartnell for his stupid penalties. The difference between him and Carcillo is about 30 goals, hence why nobody wants Hartnell gone.

Giroux and Powe were also both rookies who bring much more than just fighting which is why they get a little slack.

Hartnell was totally non existent in the series. Lets not forget about his dumb penalties in the series. He gets slack how??? I am not saying lets trade Hartnell or get rid of him but what did he do in the playoffs to not deserve the criticism???

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06-20-2009, 05:39 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
Yeah and it should of gave us a bigger boost. I know i would be so hyped after seeing my teammate beat the **** out of a guy who always runs his mouth. Wouldn't you?
Lets turn it around.

You're losing 3-0 and your teammate just went out there and took on a guy that he knew was going to pound his face in...and got his face pounded in. He jumped up right back up and taunted the crowd.

Are you fired up to go out there and make his "sacrifice" worthwhile? Or are you thinking to yourself, "Well, that was dumb...he got beat up."

The point isn't whether fighting amps you up or doesn't amp you up...the very assumption is that the fight DOES amp people up. That being the case, you're up 3-0...why are you getting in a fight that is going to amp up the opponent?

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06-20-2009, 05:40 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
Hartnell was totally non existent in the series. Lets not forget about his dumb penalties in the series. He gets slack how??? I am not saying lets trade Hartnell or get rid of him but what did he do in the playoffs to not deserve the criticism???
Hartnell got BLASTED after Game 1. Blasted. He had to stand in front of the media and answer questions about his dumb penalties for two days.

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06-20-2009, 05:47 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets turn it around.

You're losing 3-0 and your teammate just went out there and took on a guy that he knew was going to pound his face in...and got his face pounded in. He jumped up right back up and taunted the crowd.

Are you fired up to go out there and make his "sacrifice" worthwhile? Or are you thinking to yourself, "Well, that was dumb...he got beat up."

The point isn't whether fighting amps you up or doesn't amp you up...the very assumption is that the fight DOES amp people up. That being the case, you're up 3-0...why are you getting in a fight that is going to amp up the opponent?
Understand that. We should have net let them get into the game regardless. So many things went wrong besides that fight. But it comes down to we lost because the other team was amped up???? Right?

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06-20-2009, 05:50 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets turn it around.

You're losing 3-0 and your teammate just went out there and took on a guy that he knew was going to pound his face in...and got his face pounded in. He jumped up right back up and taunted the crowd.

Are you fired up to go out there and make his "sacrifice" worthwhile? Or are you thinking to yourself, "Well, that was dumb...he got beat up."

The point isn't whether fighting amps you up or doesn't amp you up...the very assumption is that the fight DOES amp people up. That being the case, you're up 3-0...why are you getting in a fight that is going to amp up the opponent?
And Kapanen gamely staggering to the bench in OT in TO had what effect on the Leafs? And what effect on the Flyers?

By the thinking on here you'd believe that the Leafs would have won that game and series.

(Not applicable on Lindros/Stevens encounter )

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06-20-2009, 05:51 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
Understand that. We should have net let them get into the game regardless. So many things went wrong besides that fight. But it comes down to we lost because the other team was amped up???? Right?
We lost because they scored more goals than us. I have no single explanation for why that is.

However, if you're going to evaluate the decision Carcillo made based on these assumptions about the role of fighting in hockey, then the decision Carcillo made with a 3-0 lead was a very, very dumb decision.

Who knows what might have happened if he had not fought Talbot, but we know that he did in that situation...and we know what happened next.

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06-20-2009, 05:52 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
Understand that. We should have net let them get into the game regardless. So many things went wrong besides that fight. But it comes down to we lost because the other team was amped up???? Right?
No... Because they were better, and were awakened.

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06-20-2009, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I have to wonder how many of the posters blasting Carcillo have played an organized team sport. The Flyers blew a 3 goal lead. Finger pointing at one guy if retarded. You want to blame Carcillo for something? Fine, blame him for the next goal the Pens scored, not the next 5. That's lazy, and relieves his team mates of all accountability.

You win as a team, you lose as a team. If you want to look at one play, or one guy and say "well after player X did thing Y it was all downhill from there"..... that's ******** man. If everything goes to hell, it's because the team let it. If one stupid mistake in the beginning of the second period of a game you're leading 3-0 is too much to overcome.....then your team wasn't winning anyway.
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
I suppose we have not gotten our point across well enough.

If you want to go there then I've played division 1 soccer at PSU back in the 80's. I watched a teammate get nocked the **** out from a kick to the face when he was trying to go hard to for the ball. I took a head butt to the back of my head that knocked the other guy out, I needed 8 stitches and he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance. I'm a 3rd degee black belt and I've fough in team tournaments and amature kick boxing. I've seen teammates take an absolute beating and I can tell you from personal experience that watching them get completely owned where they basically can't adequately defend themselves DOES NOT INSPIRE YOU!!! I'll tell you all what, go to a bar with a bunch of buddies and have one of them pick a fight with the biggest meanest looking SOB in the place, watch your buddy get bloodied up by that guy and then come tell me just how inspired you were afterwards.

The Flyers dropped the ball. We had the Pens down in that game with our foot on their throat. they were uninspired and had no breathing room on the ice. WE CAVED. WE SHRANK BACK AND GAVE THEN THE SPACE TO OPERATE!!!! THAT is the reason they were able to get back into that game. Even if Carcillo wasn't even dressed for that game the Flyers STILL would have gone into that shell after scoring the 3-0 lead and the Pens STILL would have had the room to operate and they STILL would have come back and won the game. Until you've sat there and watched your friend, your teammate, YOUR ROOMMATE get bloodied up like Talbot did against Carcillo and felt that sickening feeling in the pit of your stomach don't sit there and tell me that it "inspired" his teammates. I'd be damned surprised if even more than one of you have ever been in that kind of a situation.

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06-20-2009, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We lost because they scored more goals than us. I have no single explanation for why that is.

However, if you're going to evaluate the decision Carcillo made based on these assumptions about the role of fighting in hockey, then the decision Carcillo made with a 3-0 lead was a very, very dumb decision.

Who knows what might have happened if he had not fought Talbot, but we know that he did in that situation...and we know what happened next.
Exactly.

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06-20-2009, 05:55 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hartnell got BLASTED after Game 1. Blasted. He had to stand in front of the media and answer questions about his dumb penalties for two days.
Yes he did and oyu know what, he MANNED up and took the justified criticism. He eraned even more respect from me for owning up to his play and his mental lapse costing the team. He made certain to NOT let that happen again and he helped the Flyers win a few games from then on.

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06-20-2009, 05:56 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
If you want to go there then I've played division 1 soccer at PSU back in the 80's. I watched a teammate get nocked the **** out from a kick to the face when he was trying to go hard to for the ball. I took a head butt to the back of my head that knocked the other guy out, I needed 8 stitches and he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance. I'm a 3rd degee black belt and I've fough in team tournaments and amature kick boxing. I've seen teammates take an absolute beating and I can tell you from personal experience that watching them get completely owned where they basically can't adequately defend themselves DOES NOT INSPIRE YOU!!! I'll tell you all what, go to a bar with a bunch of buddies and have one of them pick a fight with the biggest meanest looking SOB in the place, watch your buddy get bloodied up by that guy and then come tell me just how inspired you were afterwards.
So, lemme get this straight. You watch someone you're close with take a beating and it doesn't inspire you to do something about it?

You're the buddy that walks out of the bar when the bar fight starts? You don't WATCH your buddy get beat up, you go to his defense! You get a rush of adrenaline and you go do something about it.

That's the "justification" for fighting in the NHL...it's WHY Talbot picked that fight, and he stated that explicitly after the game.

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06-20-2009, 05:58 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
And Kapanen gamely staggering to the bench in OT in TO had what effect on the Leafs? And what effect on the Flyers?

By the thinking on here you'd believe that the Leafs would have won that game and series.

(Not applicable on Lindros/Stevens encounter )
It had NO affect on either team until the game was over. Half the players on the ice in the Flyers defensive zone didn't know how bad it was. JR didn't have time to say "OMG, Kappy just got killed, I'm gonna make them pay for that, THUNDER CATS HOOOO". As soon as we got control of the puck in our zone after that hit JR scored on the RUSH. It had nothing to do with the team being "inspired" by Kappy's sacrafice.

Hell, to give you an idea of just how unconcerned the team was for Kappy that immediately after the goal the ENTIRE team jumped on the ice and mugged JR EXCEPT for our captain KP. Only Keith stayed with Kappy, ALL the rest were more happy with JR scoring than they were concerned for Kappy being injured.

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06-20-2009, 06:14 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
It had NO affect on either team until the game was over. Half the players on the ice in the Flyers defensive zone didn't know how bad it was. JR didn't have time to say "OMG, Kappy just got killed, I'm gonna make them pay for that, THUNDER CATS HOOOO". As soon as we got control of the puck in our zone after that hit JR scored on the RUSH. It had nothing to do with the team being "inspired" by Kappy's sacrafice.

Hell, to give you an idea of just how unconcerned the team was for Kappy that immediately after the goal the ENTIRE team jumped on the ice and mugged JR EXCEPT for our captain KP. Only Keith stayed with Kappy, ALL the rest were more happy with JR scoring than they were concerned for Kappy being injured.
It was not bang-bang... JR was on the bench to observe, and didn't get onto the ice for a while after.

In any case, are you saying that watching the way Sami reacted was not inspiring to the team? The reaction off the bench was by instinct, except for Preems who had a stronger sense -- and even then, he celebrated off the bench and then went back to Kappy to include him.

A lot of this is all done without forethought.

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06-20-2009, 06:28 PM
  #93
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Its all Carcillos fault isn't it???
If this is what you've taken from our arguments, you clearly need to read the thread again.

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06-20-2009, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, lemme get this straight. You watch someone you're close with take a beating and it doesn't inspire you to do something about it?

You're the buddy that walks out of the bar when the bar fight starts? You don't WATCH your buddy get beat up, you go to his defense! You get a rush of adrenaline and you go do something about it.

That's the "justification" for fighting in the NHL...it's WHY Talbot picked that fight, and he stated that explicitly after the game.

You missed the enitre point but that's not surprising.

Talbot TRIED to inspire his team and add some life to the team but that's not what happened. Taking a beating DOES NOT inspire you. From the posts here I am certain that 90% of the posters here were writers for their school paper, not players on the field.

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06-20-2009, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You missed the enitre point but that's not surprising.

Talbot TRIED to inspire his team and add some life to the team but that's not what happened. Taking a beating DOES NOT inspire you. From the posts here I am certain that 90% of the posters here were writers for their school paper, not players on the field.
And the other 10% played football without a helmet.

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06-20-2009, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You missed the enitre point but that's not surprising.

Talbot TRIED to inspire his team and add some life to the team but that's not what happened. Taking a beating DOES NOT inspire you. From the posts here I am certain that 90% of the posters here were writers for their school paper, not players on the field.





This 100%

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06-20-2009, 07:04 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
If this is what you've taken from our arguments, you clearly need to read the thread again.
Yes because that is all you ***** about. I have yet to see you list other reasons of why we lost the game. You always have an agenda GKJ.

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06-20-2009, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I agree and accept this. however, there is no way in hell you can sit there and tell me that watching your fellow player get the snot beat out of him like Talbot did against Carcillo FIRES a team up. You don't get fired up by your guy getting completely owned, sitting in the other teams building, the fans getting even MORE crazy, and your team is down 0-3. That just doesn't inspire the bench no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
I'm not telling you anything. The Penguins said so after they won game 6. Seeing Talbot fight a guy he knew he would lose to gave them a spark. Their words, not mine.

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06-20-2009, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I'm not telling you anything. The Penguins said so after they won game 6. Seeing Talbot fight a guy he knew he would lose to gave them a spark. Their words, not mine.

ONG, are you kidding me???? Did you actuallt see the interview??? Thy were ASKED SPECIFICALLY if Talbot fighting Carcillo gave them a spark. What are they going to say ??? "**** no, that was just plain stupid to get beat up for nothing."?????

If you've even been in a situation like this then you'd know you don't throw your teammate under the bus in this situation.

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06-20-2009, 07:20 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You missed the enitre point but that's not surprising.

Talbot TRIED to inspire his team and add some life to the team but that's not what happened. Taking a beating DOES NOT inspire you. From the posts here I am certain that 90% of the posters here were writers for their school paper, not players on the field.
Wrong. Talbot DID inspire his team, and I didn't need to play team sports to know that. I just looked up what they said.

http://flyers.nhl.com/team/app?gameN...9&service=page

Quote:
Daniel Carcillo gave the revved-up fans even more reason to cheer when he squared off against Talbot early in the second. Carcillo sent Talbot to the ice with a couple hard rights and the Flyers' bench and crowd went wild.

Perhaps that served as a wake-up call for the Penguins, however. They controlled the game the rest of the way.

"It seems like it's what got us going," Gonchar said.



http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_622551.html

Quote:
In fact, in speaking with players, coaches and management types at practice Monday, every one of them some in private told me that Talbot's fight with Daniel Carcillo was critical to the abrupt swing in momentum.

....

But still ...

"For Max to put his body on the line like that, it got everybody off the bench," assistant coach Tom Fitzgerald said. "He fired me up. I know it meant a lot to his teammates. Some guys wear the cape different ways. For the coaching staff, I know Max had the cape for what he did."

I asked veteran winger Bill Guerin if he thought Talbot's tiff was the turning point.

"I know it was," Guerin said.

Did it change the team's energy?

"Not our energy as much as our attitude, like now we were going to do whatever it takes. Like we were ... "

A cornered animal?

"Yes," Guerin said, smiling.

....

"If I would have asked a guy like (Mike) Richards, or (Claude) Giroux or Briere, they probably wouldn't have fought," Talbot said, "so I went after a guy I knew would fight me."

What exactly, did Talbot say?

"I just said, 'You wanna fight?' He was like, 'Yeah? Yeah?' I was like, 'Yeah.' "

....

"I don't think we were playing terrible before (Talbot's fight)," Crosby said. "But there was something there that gave us a little more of a spark and motivated us, on that next shift, to respond."
Dan Bylsma:
http://penguins.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=40761

Bill Guerin:
http://penguins.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=40758

Marc-Andre Fleury:
http://penguins.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=40760

Sergei Gonchar (who mentioned it before being asked):
http://penguins.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=40759

Sidney Crosby:
http://penguins.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=40757

Max Talbot:
http://penguins.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=40756


I look forward to you trying to debunk direct quotes and video interviews from the players themselves.

Dare I say....I think they'd know better than we do.

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