HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New Jersey Devils
Notices

Brent Sutter

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-22-2009, 07:52 AM
  #26
Richer's Ghost
Moderator
GO SJ & CBJ
 
Richer's Ghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: photoshop labor camp
Country: United States
Posts: 47,168
vCash: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post

Once Parise and Elias stopped playing like Crosby and Malkin, and more importantly once we encountered a team that played our game better than we did, we were through. And it had everything to do with our lack of assets capable of playing that game at the high level demanded in the playoffs.

Carolina took their game to another level in the postseason. It was a level to which we were incapable of rising because we simply don't have the depth of players with potential to rise that high.
[/i]
All we talked about leading up to this season was how much friggin depth we had at forward.

Holik - Zajac - Rolston - Langenbrunner - Clarkson - Zubrus - Gionta - Shanahan. These are the guys that were supposed to chip in with every other goal game in and game out when Elias and Parise had a flat game. Well they didn't. Elias was invisible and Parise fell silent after 2 games and the depth became as good a pictures on the wall at contributing.

Given we sunk all our "depth" into the forward position during the offseason and had a forecheck system from Sutter that would dictate puck control and thus lead to scoring chances. Once the people above went flat, Sutter had no choice but to play a more defensive style to hope and create turnovers on mistakes made from better positioning.

Given the "A Game" plan wasn't working and we were losing, he resorted to "Old Plan B" which in the end didn't work either but everyone wants to blame the game 7 loss on line matching - not the lack of production from the stars and the supporting cast of depth at forward...

__________________

We're all a bunch of sausage sticks walking around. None of us really wants to see how we were made.
Richer's Ghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 08:41 AM
  #27
Zajacs Bowl Cut
Nova Nation
 
Zajacs Bowl Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Southampton, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 35,811
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Zajacs Bowl Cut Send a message via Yahoo to Zajacs Bowl Cut
to sum it up,

we played an aggresive forechecking game most of the season. our top guys produced and carried the team

then, Sutter decided to change our gameplan and play the madden/pandolfo game, which is fine at some aspects in different games but not the way we did. its like a switch went off in Sutter's head and he turned into Julien and all our past coaches that did this.

like someone already mentioned, look at the difference in ice times from games 1 and 2 to the rest of the series. our best players werent playing the most minutes. when that happens, you arent going to win series in the NHL, let alone the Cup. not in the new NHL

Zajacs Bowl Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 08:47 AM
  #28
jkrdevil
UnRegistered User
 
jkrdevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 30,297
vCash: 500
Something has been bothering me since this move to Calgary was basically announced and that is the sudden switch in philosophy. It was almost as if he was coaching to get fired.

I disagree Ghost. The "depth" players did show up in the series and got big goals. Gionta had a fantastic series, Clarkson picked up a couple of key goals, and so did Shanny. Line matching did cost the Devils the series. It cost them in OT in Game 2 and it cost them a chance at OT in Game 4. Sutter let Maurice and the Canes control the games. He basically punted while on Carolina's 30 yard line.

Like Guy said the Devils dominated that series through the first 4 periods. If you remember that first period of Game 2 they had a chance to basically put the series away but the PP failed. Then they gave up a PP goal at the end and panicked. Carolina keyed in on Parise and there was no creativity to get him away from the match-up. I said it them but why not throw him on with Madden and Shanny and couple shifts a game. That gives that line a more offensive bite, gives Zach a better defensive match-up, and gives your best player the few extra minutes that can mean the difference between a win and loss.

The Devils lost because of coaching. They should have won that series in 5 games. The players played their ***** off but that chronic bad coaching decision in ceding control to the opponent and playing passive ends up catching up to you. It did the last 80 seconds of Game 7.

jkrdevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 09:06 AM
  #29
Drewr15
Registered User
 
Drewr15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Milford, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 5,525
vCash: 500
While I think we can all agree that we need a stronger D and another center, in 2 seasons as head coach Sutter had this team playing great hockey for a good portion of the season, even with these lineup holes, and both seasons the teams fell off down the stretch and he couldn't get them back to that level. Bottom line for me is he couldn't get this team to play their best when it counted and his regular season records were pretty similar to what we ended up with the 2 seasons before him so I really shed no tears at his leaving.

I also don't understand the logic of thinking well Elias and Parise, our 2 best players, aren't playing their best, so let's play them less instead of trying to get them going. That is playing not to lose instead of playing to win, which is in my opinion what Sutter did. As guy said, why not one shift of elias with zajac and parise, especially since after the first game on their line Rolston went invisible again (insert BS Rolston defense excuse here). Why not a shift with Elias and Gio, who was playing fantastic all series, out there with Madden. He just seemed to keep running head first into that wall even when the signs it was failing were there.

That said, I personally bear him no will about leaving to take the job in Calgary. Yes they will still be on the road but for at least half the games and days inbetween home games he will get to go home and sleep in his bed with his wife and see his daugther. I totally understand that and don't blame him for taking the opportunity.

Drewr15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 09:33 AM
  #30
Richer's Ghost
Moderator
GO SJ & CBJ
 
Richer's Ghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: photoshop labor camp
Country: United States
Posts: 47,168
vCash: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrdevil View Post
I disagree Ghost. The "depth" players did show up in the series and got big goals. Gionta had a fantastic series, Clarkson picked up a couple of key goals, and so did Shanny. Line matching did cost the Devils the series. It cost them in OT in Game 2 and it cost them a chance at OT in Game 4. Sutter let Maurice and the Canes control the games. He basically punted while on Carolina's 30 yard line.
Only 3 "depth" players had more than 1 goal - Langenbrunner, Clarkson, and Gionta (and they all had 2). 3 games the Devils scored 1 goal or none at all - I would certainly hope that depth players could score more than once in a series if your star duo of Parise and Elias aren't putting the puck in the net and help win a game and thus, a series. Game 4 is the only game in the series where more than 1 depth player stepped up - Gionta, Langs, and Clarkson to nearly get a win for us. I won't count the game 7 debacle in this at all (where Rolston got his only goal of the series) because that was fluke city between the Pando goal and the final 2 minutes of hell I will not re-live for this discussion... it will never be worth it to re-live that ever.

Shanahan had 1 goal in game 4 which we lost btw.

Clarkson saved the day in game 5 when Marty came back with a vengeance and got the shutout. I will agree he had a great series and I hope he stays around a long time because of it and everything else he contributes to the team.

My simple point is our depth players didn't play deep enough - save a very select few, they played like bottom 6 players on a team that just rounds out the lineup because they have a stud top 6 who win the games all on their own.

::cue the Lou team architecture discussion::

Richer's Ghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 10:01 AM
  #31
Saugus
Ecrasez l'infame!
 
Saugus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 97,441
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Saugus
What annoys me most about this is the timing on both ends. Sutter took his sweet time deciding whether he wanted to come back for us, wasting everyone's time. Most importantly, his waffling handcuffed Lou with regards to finding a new coach, and now we might not have a coach when free agency starts, something that is sure to give pause to free agents who are considering us.

And now, despite the fact that it took Sutter over a month to decide not to come back to NJ, it apparently took him only two weeks to reverse himself and go to Calgary? That is a slap in the face to the Devils organisation. I don't want to speculate, but with such a rapid reversal you have to wonder if tampering was involved. I only hope that Lou got us a draft pick as compensation for this nonsense. Imagine the hell that would be raised if a player did something like this. Coaches sign contracts too, they can't just break them because they want to coach somewhere else.

Saugus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 12:27 PM
  #32
Cowbell232
Moderator
 
Cowbell232's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 19,048
vCash: 500
And for anyone thinking of 'tampering'... of course there was! It's his brother! He doesn't just magically not talk to his brother.

And subtle little hints are tampering, but it's family. What can you do?

__________________
"Why I'll be a Devil forever [...] two words. Trust and respect." - Mr. Pat Burns
"I learned not to question Cowbell's willingness to ban." - Brian Boyle
Cowbell232 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 12:49 PM
  #33
None Shall Pass
Got Carter
 
None Shall Pass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 5,882
vCash: 500
I don't know if I can fully blame Lou for not putting an awesome team together.
We've been in the playoffs for 11-12 years in a row now, right? Which means we're constantly drafting lower.
Which means our picks tend to be more of a crapshoot.
Which means a couple bad drafts sets us back a lot.
Which means we have less to trade/barter with.
Lou no doubt made a few bad moves years ago, but we know that he made plays at deadlines for big players all the time, but he also has the sense to not over-overpay - something I value in him.
If we had a draft record like Detroit, we'd have a damn good team. Unfortunately we don't. And thus, we have few prospects to look forward to/trade and we have to hoard all of our higher picks.
That handcuffs Lou.

None Shall Pass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 01:04 PM
  #34
Richer's Ghost
Moderator
GO SJ & CBJ
 
Richer's Ghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: photoshop labor camp
Country: United States
Posts: 47,168
vCash: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by None Shall Pass View Post
I don't know if I can fully blame Lou for not putting an awesome team together.
We've been in the playoffs for 11-12 years in a row now, right? Which means we're constantly drafting lower.
Which means our picks tend to be more of a crapshoot.
Which means a couple bad drafts sets us back a lot.
Which means we have less to trade/barter with.
Lou no doubt made a few bad moves years ago, but we know that he made plays at deadlines for big players all the time, but he also has the sense to not over-overpay - something I value in him.
If we had a draft record like Detroit, we'd have a damn good team. Unfortunately we don't. And thus, we have few prospects to look forward to/trade and we have to hoard all of our higher picks.
That handcuffs Lou.
In general its reasoning like this that contribute to people getting bad tattoos, waverunners, timeshares, herpes and much much more.




(you can talk yourself into anything if you try hard enough)

Richer's Ghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 02:24 PM
  #35
guyincognito
Registered User
 
guyincognito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 31,300
vCash: 500
I still think the depth arguement comes down to how you arrange the players.

The two sets of lines I posted, the healthy regular season lines and the healthy playoff lines, that's a huge difference, the team seems less deep, because you take two players who can produce offensively in Clarkson and Rolston, and cut their minutes.

You take two players who can't produce offensively, in Madden and Pando, and in one case, you drastically raise his minutes, in th other case, you rescue him from the press box and give him large minutes. You make the line with these players you defacto second line in ice time, and even the first line on some nights, and are you really surprised the team doesn't look deep?

Then you compound that by giving home ice advantage away and letting the Hurricanes dictate the game. They could stay static in that matchup, even if they weren't scoring with Staal, because the checking line couldn't score on Staal. Which is a pretty dubious achievement. So, you just rotate Staal's wingers until you find something that works. And later in the series, they found it. We just kept doing the same thing.

Our coaching effort in this series was nil. No matter what you think of Parise and Elias' performances, no matter what you think of the PZL shift with two minutes left, no matter if you feel like hating on Marty for the last two minutes of the game, or if you want to kick Havelid around... there's one thing that's a theme throughout the series. No coaching moves are made except to pull back the forecheck.

guyincognito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 02:27 PM
  #36
DerekDevils30
Registered User
 
DerekDevils30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Manitoba
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,113
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrdevil View Post
Something has been bothering me since this move to Calgary was basically announced and that is the sudden switch in philosophy. It was almost as if he was coaching to get fired.
This may be out there but it is a valid point and concern. It does worry me that Rolston was so up front about how happy he is that Sutter is gone. Brian is an established and respected vet and I'm sure other players weren't so fond of Brent.

Sometimes, I feel like our veterans are a bit spoiled. They seem like brats. The whole Julien incident still bewilders me.

DerekDevils30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 02:35 PM
  #37
Feed Me A Stray Cat
Registered User
 
Feed Me A Stray Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 11,126
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Feed Me A Stray Cat
The idea that the Devils lacked offensive depth does not hold. Elias, Parise, Zajac, Langenbrunner, Gionta, Zubrus, Rolston, Clarkson, and Shanahan are nine players capable of scoring 15 goals of more in a season. That's better scoring depth than the vast majority of NHL teams.

Classic Devil, your argument about our stars coming back down to earth is correct. However that is the case for every single NHL team. If your best players don't come through you won't win, no matter team depth or team style of play. Carolina didn't have more depth than the Devils, they're simply more of the same. Look at their record when their star, Eric Staal, doesn't score.

And that's what the playoffs comes down to. Your best players, along with a couple role players, have to step up or else you'll be smacking golf balls in no time. Some years the right players get hot at the right time, some years they don't.

Feed Me A Stray Cat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 02:50 PM
  #38
jkrdevil
UnRegistered User
 
jkrdevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 30,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
The idea that the Devils lacked offensive depth does not hold. Elias, Parise, Zajac, Langenbrunner, Gionta, Zubrus, Rolston, Clarkson, and Shanahan are nine players capable of scoring 15 goals of more in a season. That's better scoring depth than the vast majority of NHL teams.

Classic Devil, your argument about our stars coming back down to earth is correct. However that is the case for every single NHL team. If your best players don't come through you won't win, no matter team depth or team style of play. Carolina didn't have more depth than the Devils, they're simply more of the same. Look at their record when their star, Eric Staal, doesn't score.

And that's what the playoffs comes down to. Your best players, along with a couple role players, have to step up or else you'll be smacking golf balls in no time. Some years the right players get hot at the right time, some years they don't.
How are the best players supposed to step-up when the coach severely cuts their ice time? The fact that Jay Pandolfo was getting more ice time than the team's second leading scorer and the guy with the most playoffs points this decade is unacceptable. And don't give me the loss of defense argument. Elias is and has been a regular penalty killer most of career and the center of that line has been used in a shutdown role in the past.

A good coach figures out a way to get a player going and to get him away from a bad matchup. Often that includes give said players extra shifts on the bottom lines. Where was sticking Parise with Madden and Shanny a couple of times? how about stick Elias with Rolston and Clarkson a couple shifts? That helps both the stars and the depth players going. This is coaching 101 and I would expect the highest paid coach outside of Gretzky to understand that.

What you had was a coach with one foot out the door and headed to Calgary. It looked like at best he didn't care and at worst he was trying to get fired to help clear the path to Calgary.

I don't want to ever hear the Sutter's are people of integrity because in the case of Brent and probably Darryl it just isn't true.

jkrdevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:03 PM
  #39
Feed Me A Stray Cat
Registered User
 
Feed Me A Stray Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 11,126
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Feed Me A Stray Cat
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrdevil View Post
How are the best players supposed to step-up when the coach severely cuts their ice time? The fact that Jay Pandolfo was getting more ice time than the team's second leading scorer and the guy with the most playoffs points this decade is unacceptable. And don't give me the loss of defense argument. Elias is and has been a regular penalty killer most of career and the center of that line has been used in a shutdown role in the past.

A good coach figures out a way to get a player going and to get him away from a bad matchup. Often that includes give said players extra shifts on the bottom lines. Where was sticking Parise with Madden and Shanny a couple of times? how about stick Elias with Rolston and Clarkson a couple shifts? That helps both the stars and the depth players going. This is coaching 101 and I would expect the highest paid coach outside of Gretzky to understand that.
I don't disagree.

I was just saying that the Devils didn't lose the series because of a lack of depth.

Feed Me A Stray Cat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:06 PM
  #40
Silly Goose
Registered User
 
Silly Goose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 657
vCash: 500
Whatever happens, Lou better get some sort of compensation from Calgary for giving his permission to Sutter to hire Sutter. This has "tampering" written all over it and hopefully Lou and Darryl can come to some sort of compensation that is adequate without making this an ugly situation.

Brent didn't want to be here, that is fine. He'll obviously be a lot closer to family, etc. But everyone here could read between the BS that was being spewed by Brent with his "woa is me...I miss my family" crap.

Silly Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:32 PM
  #41
None Shall Pass
Got Carter
 
None Shall Pass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 5,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
In general its reasoning like this that contribute to people getting bad tattoos, waverunners, timeshares, herpes and much much more.




(you can talk yourself into anything if you try hard enough)
Or it's just plain as day. Around here it's called deductive logic, but whatever. Agree to disagree.

None Shall Pass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:44 PM
  #42
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
he **** the bed in that series, there's no two ways about it. ultimately, the players can't say "no, Brent, you're nuts" and not go over the boards, even if they know it's suicidial... re: Dano's comments in '98 that might have contributed to sealing Lemaire's fate.
Out of curiosity, what did Dano say? I was much younger back then and tended to turn away from the team in disgust the summers after they choked.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:49 PM
  #43
Richer's Ghost
Moderator
GO SJ & CBJ
 
Richer's Ghost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: photoshop labor camp
Country: United States
Posts: 47,168
vCash: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by None Shall Pass View Post
Or it's just plain as day. Around here it's called deductive logic, but whatever. Agree to disagree.
sorry - I forgot the which would have helped you find the humor in the bad tattoos...herpes, etc... part of that.

The point was you stack up 25 suppositions and you can probably lead yourself to any conclusion regardless of the factual certainty of the suppositions used.

I'm sure Das Uber could pull together a similar string of logic that would tell us why Eric Cartman should be hired as the new head coach if he felt the burning desire to do so.

Richer's Ghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:52 PM
  #44
guyincognito
Registered User
 
guyincognito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 31,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Out of curiosity, what did Dano say? I was much younger back then and tended to turn away from the team in disgust the summers after they choked.
he openly questioned why checkers were out there when the season was slipping away. so, if defensive players were getting disgusted, I could only imagine what offensive players were thinking.

guyincognito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:53 PM
  #45
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
and just to add, 3 months ago, I would have been fighting DF for the front seat on the Sutter bandwagon, it's not like Julien where I was looking for a reason to say something bad about him. but post 3 months ago, he **** the bed so bad there's no way you can defend him

I was basically praying he wasn't going to be fired when they tanked. And then I got rewarded with THAT in the playoffs. I swear to god, the first Shanny-Madden-Pando line match shift in the series, I said to my friend next to me... "He's not really going to do that for the whole series, is he? They couldn't keep up with me, and they're going to get first line minutes."

Well, he really did it.
3 months ago, I thought Sutter should be an coach of the year candidate for how he kept the team together when Brodeur went down.

But with about a month left in the regular season, something happened. Maybe it's just me looking for signs in retrospect, but it really seems that Sutter lost his fire. Maybe he got homesick and lost his ability to give 100% to the Devils? I don't know. But I do know that he seemed to be going through the motions. His first season, if a line combo didn't work, he switched it up (perhaps too much). All of a sudden, the Zubrus line goes stone cold and Sutter... does nothing.

In the playoffs, he goes to the Madden linematching strategy and it obviously wasn't working. Carolina dominated the Devils from the time Maurice put Staal with Whitney. And Sutter... didn't change anything. Not a single adjustment to try to fix what wasn't working. It was mind boggling.

Was Sutter just going through the motions to play out the rest of the year when his hart wasn't really in it? With all the rumors of him wanting to leave and then the way it transpired, it seems to me that is what happened. And it's unforgivable. Larry had the decency to quit when he couldn't handle coaching anymore. Sutter went through the motions to keep cashing his salary (the highest in the league?)

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 03:59 PM
  #46
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
All we talked about leading up to this season was how much friggin depth we had at forward.

Holik - Zajac - Rolston - Langenbrunner - Clarkson - Zubrus - Gionta - Shanahan. These are the guys that were supposed to chip in with every other goal game in and game out when Elias and Parise had a flat game. Well they didn't. Elias was invisible and Parise fell silent after 2 games and the depth became as good a pictures on the wall at contributing.

Given we sunk all our "depth" into the forward position during the offseason and had a forecheck system from Sutter that would dictate puck control and thus lead to scoring chances. Once the people above went flat, Sutter had no choice but to play a more defensive style to hope and create turnovers on mistakes made from better positioning.

Given the "A Game" plan wasn't working and we were losing, he resorted to "Old Plan B" which in the end didn't work either but everyone wants to blame the game 7 loss on line matching - not the lack of production from the stars and the supporting cast of depth at forward...

The A game wasn't working? The Devils dominated the Canes in game 1 and for large parts of game 2 and came out with a split. Then they go to the linematching garbage and suddenly the scoring dries up, Carolina dominates possession, and Brodeur is relied on to steal the series, something he almost did.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 04:03 PM
  #47
guyincognito
Registered User
 
guyincognito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 31,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
3 months ago, I thought Sutter should be an coach of the year candidate for how he kept the team together when Brodeur went down.

But with about a month left in the regular season, something happened. Maybe it's just me looking for signs in retrospect, but it really seems that Sutter lost his fire. Maybe he got homesick and lost his ability to give 100% to the Devils? I don't know. But I do know that he seemed to be going through the motions. His first season, if a line combo didn't work, he switched it up (perhaps too much). All of a sudden, the Zubrus line goes stone cold and Sutter... does nothing.

In the playoffs, he goes to the Madden linematching strategy and it obviously wasn't working. Carolina dominated the Devils from the time Maurice put Staal with Whitney. And Sutter... didn't change anything. Not a single adjustment to try to fix what wasn't working. It was mind boggling.

Was Sutter just going through the motions to play out the rest of the year when his hart wasn't really in it? With all the rumors of him wanting to leave and then the way it transpired, it seems to me that is what happened. And it's unforgivable. Larry had the decency to quit when he couldn't handle coaching anymore. Sutter went through the motions to keep cashing his salary (the highest in the league?)
Other than Gretzky, yeah, that's what has been said. I'm guessing around Pando's salary.

guyincognito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 04:10 PM
  #48
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrdevil View Post
How are the best players supposed to step-up when the coach severely cuts their ice time? The fact that Jay Pandolfo was getting more ice time than the team's second leading scorer and the guy with the most playoffs points this decade is unacceptable. And don't give me the loss of defense argument. Elias is and has been a regular penalty killer most of career and the center of that line has been used in a shutdown role in the past.

A good coach figures out a way to get a player going and to get him away from a bad matchup. Often that includes give said players extra shifts on the bottom lines. Where was sticking Parise with Madden and Shanny a couple of times? how about stick Elias with Rolston and Clarkson a couple shifts? That helps both the stars and the depth players going. This is coaching 101 and I would expect the highest paid coach outside of Gretzky to understand that.

What you had was a coach with one foot out the door and headed to Calgary. It looked like at best he didn't care and at worst he was trying to get fired to help clear the path to Calgary.

I don't want to ever hear the Sutter's are people of integrity because in the case of Brent and probably Darryl it just isn't true.
I read this post after making my post about how I suspect Brent was just going through the motions at the end of the year. Glad I'm not the only one to suspect it. I doubt he was purposely trying to get fired, but he was certainly coaching like a guy who didn't give a crap.

Game 7: 14 minutes of ice time to the leading playoff scorer for the last decade, just coming off a PPG season, and healthy enough to play in the World Championships after the Devils lost. Yes, Patty wasn't playing his best, but Sutter did absolutely nothing to help him out.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-22-2009, 04:14 PM
  #49
DevilFisch
Registered User
 
DevilFisch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Edison, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to DevilFisch Send a message via AIM to DevilFisch
Given that the first round series went to 7, I'm very skeptical of wide statements that the Devils didn't have the talent or the depth. Bad breaks that shouldn't have happened because the Devils took their foot off the proverbial gas pedal - something that is directly related to how the team was coached and motivated by Sutter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionHockey View Post
I've heard rumblings that Lamoriello is notorious for being a control freak, thus all the coaching changes. It wouldn't surprise me if Lou's constant scrutiny drove Sutter away, but that just speculation.
Pat Burns stepped down because he had cancer.
Larry Robinson stepped down because he had a nervous breakdown.
Claude Julien lost the locker room.
Brent Sutter quit because he wants to be in Calgary.

I don't see how this can be connected to how Lou runs the Devils as GM.

DevilFisch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2009, 01:46 AM
  #50
JerryGigantic
Respect Patrik
 
JerryGigantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Country: Ireland
Posts: 6,339
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Devil View Post
There are two very different arguments that need to be elucidated:

(1) Brent Sutter: good head coach or bad head coach?
(2) Brent Sutter: are Devils fans pissed at him leaving?

They are entirely independent and that needs to be clear to all non-Devils fans who come to this thread to talk about him.

Brent Sutter: Good Head Coach?
For this argument, there are two arguments which I believe dominate the discourse:

First, that Brent Sutter is a good head coach - during the regular season, he put together an offensively oriented, forechecking system that was largely responsible for the Devils' division championship this last season, despite Brodeur's absence. This is the argument that I've made for most of the last year.

Second, that Brent Sutter is a good head coach during the regular season, but that he's demonstrated chronic indecisiveness that has cost him at key moments over the last two seasons. This is hard to deny - Sutter's sudden switch away from his regular season style is, in my opinion, why the Devils lost to Carolina - and those who advocate this point (JerryGigantic, I'm looking at you) are quick to note that his wavering this offseason lend further credibility to the argument that Sutter is indecisive when it matters.

Brent Sutter: Are Devils fans Pissed?

You need to understand: whether or not he was a good coach or bad coach has nothing to do with whether or not we're pissed at him. If he's a bad coach we could shrug our shoulders and say too bad, we'll find a replacement that is his equal - and I think we will if we hire Haviland, but that doesn't mean we don't have a right to be annoyed at him.

There are a number of reasons Devils fans have to be annoyed at Brent Sutter, but the one that is most important is this: The reasons he gave for leaving the Devils (the Red Deer Rebels, his family) are largely incompatible with him being a head coach in the NHL anywhere, not just him being a head coach outside of Alberta. Him giving those reasons as grounds for his departure from the Devils, then taking another head coach job a week later, is frustrating.
CD--

Just back from a family vacation and have been holding my tongue on Brent Sutter jumping at the Calgary job. But since you name dropped me in your post, I feel an obligation to sound off in response.

First off, I have been emotionally all over the map with Brent Sutter since he arrived, so the latest is simply the cherry on top for me. And, yes, I am pissed. Frustrated. And resigned to the situation. All wrapped up in one.

At the outset of his first season as head coach, Brent Sutter rode in on a white horse, our savior and future GM, being paid "genius money" despite never having coached an NHL game. And the folks on our board were eating it up. Yet I was with Jim EIV (the sinister bowman) and a scant few other non-believers who thought Sutter was out of his depth and off the reservation with all the mind games he was playing with our veterans (especially Patrik Elias, who is the engine that drives our offense.) I thought his taking his personal player issues to the press, instead of keeping them in the clubhouse, was bush league.

Brent was clearly struggling to implement his system as a rookie coach. His line juggling act was comical and served no good effect. We didn't have the right horses and some of the ones we did have were pretty stuck in their defensive ways. Elias and Langenbrunner had off years and despite good "goals against" numbers, our defense was held together with duct tape.

We limped into the playoffs, despite our typical regular season success, and were embarrassed. And Brent Sutter was his usual self -- a simple man who seemed very unhappy.

So I started "Season Two" very much NOT a fan of Brent Sutter. But everything seemed different. I liked the re-jiggering of our offense, with added depth and grit. And folks were actually willingly modifying the traditional Devils system to include a more active forecheck, without sacrificing the two-way play that defines the franchise. And Marty started the season in great physical shape and was playing like a world beater.

Frankly, after the first 10 games, I thought we would destroy the entire Eastern Conference. That this was our year. But when the newly reborn Marty was struck down by injury, and for the next few games we had lost our entire identity, and played like a hot mess, I thought the fanbase would finally get a taste of life without Marty. That, in fact, the sky had fallen.

But through that adversity everyone stepped up, perhaps most especially the coach. Langenbrunner, who had wilted wearing the "C" the previous season, and who was having early season penalty jitters, finally grew a pair and started to lead by example. Elias played like the Patty of old, but was having more fun than ever. And Zach Parise emerged as an elite player, with a relentless infectious energy and enthusiasm for the game rarely, if ever, matched on the other side of the puck. And Clemmer, our unsung hero, filled the enormous breach left by Marty, a lunch pail journeyman goalie playing like an All-Star.

The team was fun to watch. They played for each other. Suddenly, despite the gapping hole left by our franchise player's absence, Brent Sutter stopped line juggling and started defining roles, and the players, to a man, rose to meet those roles. Frankly, after 27 years of being a fan of the New Jersey Devils, I had never been more proud of an entire Devils roster playing as a team.

And, hat in hand, I had to give the credit, at least in part, to Brent Sutter. I was willingly eating mouthfuls of crow, as he seemed to have become every bit the coach that was initially advertised (and who had gotten everyone on HF so excited.)

Then Marty came back. His numbers were pretty much the same as Clemmer's during his stretch of 30 "fill in" victories, but the manner by which we came to the same statistical conclusion was very much different. Suddenly, instead of the team looking toward the entire room to get it done, they looked to Marty to stand on his head. This was especially egregious when it came to our defense, who despite their "no name" status were, at least for a stretch during the middle of the season, perhaps the best shutdown crew in the East. Now, they were doing a lot of watching.

The trade deadline acquisition of Nic Havelid did nothing to energize the team or the defense, some of our vets were starting to show their age (as Bobby Holik essentially entered into early retirement) and, in general, it started to look like the wheels were coming off the bus. Worst of all, the team wasn't having nearly as much fun. Especially the coach. They weren't playing for each other and they weren't playing for him.

And Brent Sutter started looking like that same very unhappy man again.

Despite reliving the past season, as reflected through the coach, I very much do not want to relive the recent playoff heartbreak. I don't feel Carolina was a bad draw for us, despite the regular season woes, as the two teams play a similar style, with similar depth. But I felt (and still do) that our top end talent was and is better (Parise > Staal, Brodeur > Ward, Elias > Cole, Whitney or anyone else on their team...)

We just played scared and choked. And that is absolutely a reflection of the coach. I think Game 7 was Brent Sutter's defining moment as the head coach of the New Jersey Devils, and it tore the heart right out of him. And a very unhappy man was reduced to a shell. A ghost.

I believed him when he said his heart wasn't in it anymore. That he was homesick. That he missed his wife and, especially, his daughter, his youngest. That Red Deer, Alberta was calling him home. I bought all of it. And, I think, so did Lou. I certainly doubted the coach, but never the man.

So, after weeks of mulling and moping, Lou allowed him to go find his peace. And wouldn't you know it, little more than a week later, suddenly he found the inner fortitude to coach in the NHL again. How convenient for him.

Leaving me now with doubts both about his ability to win as an NHL head coach and about his character as a person. Hopefully his replacement will place the team ahead of himself.

We'll see.

JerryGigantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:13 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.