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06-23-2009, 08:42 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

Look, I'm done arguing here... But I suggest you look up the stats and revisit his play... What you described is, in my mind at least, a pure misrepresentation on so many fronts. Time to agree to disagree... and see what Homer and Knuble come up with. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind, and that's fine.
I do not give a **** about his stats I watch him play. He is not what we need on 3rd line if thats where he is going to start this season and I would basically hate to see him on 1st or 2nd line RW for the next 2 years. I am not Knubles hater I say it again I think he did well here.

Flyers have more important needs then re-signing Mike Knuble. After signing Emery Flyers must improve that D not throwing $ at Mike Knuble and thats something you obviously do not understand.


If Rangers want him let them sign him. He will not score that many goals playing with Drury or Gomez.

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06-23-2009, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I do not give a **** about his stats I watch him play. He is not what we need on 3rd line if thats where he is going to start this season and I would basically hate to see him on 1st or 2nd line RW for the next 2 years. I am not Knubles hater I say it again I think he did well here.

Flyers have more important needs then re-signing Mike Knuble. After signing Emery Flyers must improve that D not throwing $ at Mike Knuble and thats something you obviously do not understand.


If Rangers want him let them sign him. He will not score that many goals playing with Drury or Gomez.
I understand a lot more than you give me credit for... I just don't understand how things can be pulled out of ones ass and be put out as truth... But, that is the Internet for you; happens all the time.

I am a season ticket holder... What I see in no way resembles what you are trying to put across here; the facts and figures do not back up your view.

Negadelphia sometimes annoys me more than other times... I should learn to ignore it more.

I do agree that an upgrade at D is always needed, and now as much as ever... I just am not willing to move needed veteran presence to save dollars. All the talented young studs in the World will not bring in a Cup, if not supported by veterans; teams that have won the Cup understand that... but you obviously do not.

I am done here.

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06-23-2009, 09:59 AM
  #53
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I like Knuble, but I could do without Lupul and Knuble and bring in some defense. If Knuble wants more then 1 year and wants more then $3, then I say we have to let him go. We have veterans. We have players with playoff experience. Gagne, Timonen, Briere have all been in the league a long time. Even Hartnell has quite a few seasons under his belt.

Heck, Giroux is 21 or something and he has more poise then some of the guys who are 25. I am not worried much about leadership and whatnot. We need defense and someone has to be moved to do it. We need to sacrifice someone. Jones has NO value. We cant trade him for anything. Carle has low value. We traded 2 scrubs to get him (I just called Downie and Eminger scrubs FYI). Lupul actually has value since he put up good points the past 2 seasons. I am just not much a fan of his or Briere's style of play, but I see their value.

Ideally, I would send Briere packing and bring Jay-Bo in. However, that is an unlikely scenario.

I feel this offseason will be a disappointment.

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06-23-2009, 10:21 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I like Knuble, but I could do without Lupul and Knuble and bring in some defense. If Knuble wants more then 1 year and wants more then $3, then I say we have to let him go. We have veterans. We have players with playoff experience. Gagne, Timonen, Briere have all been in the league a long time. Even Hartnell has quite a few seasons under his belt.

Heck, Giroux is 21 or something and he has more poise then some of the guys who are 25. I am not worried much about leadership and whatnot. We need defense and someone has to be moved to do it. We need to sacrifice someone. Jones has NO value. We cant trade him for anything. Carle has low value. We traded 2 scrubs to get him (I just called Downie and Eminger scrubs FYI). Lupul actually has value since he put up good points the past 2 seasons. I am just not much a fan of his or Briere's style of play, but I see their value.

Ideally, I would send Briere packing and bring Jay-Bo in. However, that is an unlikely scenario.

I feel this offseason will be a disappointment.
IMO, the stretch last season and the POs, particularly Game Six, proved that the team needs to mature quite a bit... The amount of quality veterans -- quality as in leadership -- is far too little... Hatcher, Smith, Kapanen, Dowd and Metropolit were lost from last year or, in Metropolit's case, earlier in the season.

I like Hartnell a lot, but his maturity and leadership is not there yet -- with the glove toss and other thoughtless acts -- Timonen is great, but is not enough and has the entire D to take care of... Gagne and Briere is not enough, and not real strong leaders. Knuble's loss would be a big one in that respect alone.

I believe that Homer should bring in more veterans, we have plenty of stud prospects and young stars... But, with the Cap troubles, quality veterans will be hard to sign, and costly (player-wise) in trades.

There is a good reason that Homer is trying so hard to retain Knuble... and it goes beyond what his offensive numbers and defensive play bring. Lupul's loss would be easier to make up, as I see it.

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06-23-2009, 10:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
IMO, the stretch last season and the POs, particularly Game Six, proved that the team needs to mature quite a bit... The amount of quality veterans -- quality as in leadership -- is far too little... Hatcher, Smith, Kapanen, Dowd and Metropolit were lost from last year or, in Metropolit's case, earlier in the season.

I like Hartnell a lot, but his maturity and leadership is not there yet -- with the glove toss and other thoughtless acts -- Timonen is great, but is not enough and has the entire D to take care of... Gagne and Briere is not enough, and not real strong leaders. Knuble's loss would be a big one in that respect alone.

I believe that Homer should bring in more veterans, we have plenty of stud prospects and young stars... But, with the Cap troubles, quality veterans will be hard to sign, and costly (player-wise) in trades.

There is a good reason that Homer is trying so hard to retain Knuble... and it goes beyond what his offensive numbers and defensive play bring. Lupul's loss would be easier to make up, as I see it.
It's not like Knuble took a bad penalty in OT of a playoff game when we were on the Powerplay.

Wait, our veteran DID take a costly Penalty in OT of a playoff game. A game we lost shortly after. Darn.

I realize Hartnell is hardly disciplined, but this team HAS veterans. I don't WANT to lose Knuble, however if we DID lose him due to the salary cap, then we really dont have to much of a choice, now do we? This team needs to upgrade the D MORE then it needs to keep Knuble.

You do agree with me there, right? You see that we have to scarifice SOMETHING to improve, right?

Jones won't fetch pucks in return. Coming of a bad injury where he skates like a kid, he is overpaid by a LOT. Carle is something we got in return for scrubs and was a salary dump in our direction. The only person people WANT to give up is Lupul, and his value (while he has some) is minimal.

Gagne or Carter might have to be moved to make space for an upgrade.

That terrifies me. I'd rather move Briere, but that doesnt look realistic.

I'd be like, hey Danny. We will cut your minutes and put you with Cote and Ross unless you agree to go to LA. Sorry buddy.

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06-23-2009, 10:51 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
It's not like Knuble took a bad penalty in OT of a playoff game when we were on the Powerplay.

Wait, our veteran DID take a costly Penalty in OT of a playoff game. A game we lost shortly after. Darn.

I realize Hartnell is hardly disciplined, but this team HAS veterans. I don't WANT to lose Knuble, however if we DID lose him due to the salary cap, then we really dont have to much of a choice, now do we? This team needs to upgrade the D MORE then it needs to keep Knuble.

You do agree with me there, right? You see that we have to scarifice SOMETHING to improve, right?

Jones won't fetch pucks in return. Coming of a bad injury where he skates like a kid, he is overpaid by a LOT. Carle is something we got in return for scrubs and was a salary dump in our direction. The only person people WANT to give up is Lupul, and his value (while he has some) is minimal.

Gagne or Carter might have to be moved to make space for an upgrade.

That terrifies me. I'd rather move Briere, but that doesnt look realistic.

I'd be like, hey Danny. We will cut your minutes and put you with Cote and Ross unless you agree to go to LA. Sorry buddy.
Not that Knuble doesn't have bad timed calls, as many players do, but that call at the end of that regulation was crap... it shouldn't have been called at that point in such a game -- if at all.

Of course cost would have to be a factor... but, if there is a way to sign him, Homer has to do it. Keep in mind that Knuble would have to be replaced, and at what cost? There may have to be multiple replacements to cover all his attributes. The first two years here, Knuble was a great bargain -- there was another year that was wiped out by the Lockout -- The next two years, to me, were more than fair... when compared to other players, such as Lupuls upcoming contract... There was a more than fair bang for the buck for his $2.8M the last two seasons. The Flyers will have to keep his contract close to that number, or below, due to this awful Cap situation... But not signing him may be more costly, in more than one aspects of the word.

Remember, J-Bo would not really add to the veteran presence... and I am strong in my belief that the Flyers need maturity, and the young lions now on board must mature in a proper way... with proper tutelage.

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06-23-2009, 11:19 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Not that Knuble doesn't have bad timed calls, as many players do, but that call at the end of that regulation was crap... it shouldn't have been called at that point in such a game -- if at all.

Of course cost would have to be a factor... but, if there is a way to sign him, Homer has to do it. Keep in mind that Knuble would have to be replaced, and at what cost? There may have to be multiple replacements to cover all his attributes. The first two years here, Knuble was a great bargain -- there was another year that was wiped out by the Lockout -- The next two years, to me, were more than fair... when compared to other players, such as Lupuls upcoming contract... There was a more than fair bang for the buck for his $2.8M the last two seasons. The Flyers will have to keep his contract close to that number, or below, due to this awful Cap situation... But not signing him may be more costly, in more than one aspects of the word.

Remember, J-Bo would not really add to the veteran presence... and I am strong in my belief that the Flyers need maturity, and the young lions now on board must mature in a proper way... with proper tutelage.
If you think adding Jay-Bo at the cost of Knuble makes this team worse do to a lack of a veteran presense, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

However, that call was NOT crap. That call will ALWAYS be called. It was BLATANT and no ref in that situation would EVER let it go.

I think having Giroux up full time with a healthy Briere makes up for Knuble's production and PP time. Upgrading the defense just makes sense.

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06-23-2009, 11:38 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
I understand a lot more than you give me credit for... I just don't understand how things can be pulled out of ones ass and be put out as truth... But, that is the Internet for you; happens all the time.

I am a season ticket holder... What I see in no way resembles what you are trying to put across here; the facts and figures do not back up your view.
I honestly do not give a flying **** if you are a season ticket holder. Is that your way to say I know more then you about hockey? Big ****ing deal!!! If you think Knuble is important to this hockey club you are wrong. This player has very limited skill and Flyers have other priorities.
I do not want Flyers to give 2 year deal based on his previous performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Negadelphia sometimes annoys me more than other times... I should learn to ignore it more.

I do agree that an upgrade at D is always needed, and now as much as ever... I just am not willing to move needed veteran presence to save dollars. All the talented young studs in the World will not bring in a Cup, if not supported by veterans; teams that have won the Cup understand that... but you obviously do not.

I am done here.
Flyers have one guy who can really play D, everyone else come and go only Timonen is always committed. If Flyers do not fix it, we are done in playoffs next year. Simple as that. Flyers can trade for Mike Knuble's type at the dead line. NY Islanders traded Bill Guerin to the Pittsburgh Penguins for a 2009 conditional draft selection. Guerin was traded and he is better then Knuble.

I mean seriously, I am arguing about Mike ****ing Knuble with a guy who is looking TSN stats and tries to prove me wrong? I hope Mike receives a huge offer somewhere else. Good luck to him.

Are we seriously talking about not signing Mike Knuble and trading a player or two to sign bets UFA Bouwmeester? watch ballet..


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06-23-2009, 11:42 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
If you think adding Jay-Bo at the cost of Knuble makes this team worse do to a lack of a veteran presense, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

However, that call was NOT crap. That call will ALWAYS be called. It was BLATANT and no ref in that situation would EVER let it go.

I think having Giroux up full time with a healthy Briere makes up for Knuble's production and PP time. Upgrading the defense just makes sense.

You speak as if it is a black and white issue; not signing Knuble = signing J-Bo... If it were only so simple.

Much more and various moves would have to be done to even have the Flyers within the guidelines allowing them to bring him in... and then, to get the team in proper balance, more moves have to be made. Certainly J-Bo in and Knuble out would make the team better talent-wise... But, I don't think that that would bring in a Cup. I said that more veterans are needed to win the Cup, and move doesn't address that; it counters it.

Giroux can have a Sophomore jinx, who knows? Briere may not be here, if Cap space is needed -- which it is, for so many reasons -- and Danny waives his NMC, he may be gone... And what Knuble brings to the table is far more than merely PP production... In time Giroux can pick up the slack in some aspects, and maybe, MAYBE, JvR can in others, as can Hartnell... But that time, IMO, is not now.


As for that call; look at the officiating in the Finals and throughout the history of the NHL playoffs... That call, in THAT situation, was NEVER called. The postseason is another animal entirely and that call should not have been called... I bet that the Pens would have had no problem if it was not called... not in all reality, that is.

Regardless, all player can have bad calls taken on their team in bad spots... Knuble is not the Lone Ranger in that category; look at Richards... and didn't Carter have a back breaker called earlier in the series? (also a bad call, BTW).

I want improved D, whether or not J-Bo or another player is signed... BUT it is not a matter of Knuble OR that improvement... there are many ways that Homer can skin that proverbial cat.

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06-23-2009, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I honestly do not give a flying **** if you are a season ticket holder. Is that your way to say I know more then your about hockey? Big ****ing deal!!! If you think Knuble is important to this hockey club you are wrong. This player has very limited skill and Flyers have other priorities.
I do not want Flyers to give 2 year deal based on his previous performance.

Flyers have one guy who can really play D, everyone else come and go only Timonen is always committed. If Flyers do not fix it, we are done in playoffs next year. Simple as that. Flyers can trade for Mike Knuble's type at the dead line. NY Islanders traded Bill Guerin to the Pittsburgh Penguins for a 2009 conditional draft selection. Guerin was traded and he is better then Knuble.

I mean seriously, I am arguing about Mike ****ing Knuble with a guy who is looking TSN stats and tries to prove me wrong? I hope Mike receives a huge offer somewhere else. Good luck to him.
No, I'm not saying it for that -- if I were I'd have mentioned that I've been one for over 35 years -- I was saying that I attended and watched many games, and what you are saying is bull crap.

Curse more... it makes my point look better.

TSN stats are not important... facts are... some stats prove things and disprove others... The stats fly in the face of your assertions.

I can't believe that I am arguing with a person who is delusional.

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06-23-2009, 11:54 AM
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As for that call; look at the officiating in the Finals and throughout the history of the NHL playoffs... That call, in THAT situation, was NEVER called. The postseason is another animal entirely and that call should not have been called.
a crosscheck that high will get called.
every single time.

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06-23-2009, 11:54 AM
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You speak as if it is a black and white issue; not signing Knuble = signing J-Bo... If it were only so simple.

Much more and various moves would have to be done to even have the Flyers within the guidelines allowing them to bring him in... and then, to get the team in proper balance, more moves have to be made. Certainly J-Bo in and Knuble out would make the team better talent-wise... But, I don't think that that would bring in a Cup. I said that more veterans are needed to win the Cup, and move doesn't address that; it counters it.

Giroux can have a Sophomore jinx, who knows? Briere may not be here, if Cap space is needed -- which it is, for so many reasons -- and Danny waives his NMC, he may be gone... And what Knuble brings to the table is far more than merely PP production... In time Giroux can pick up the slack in some aspects, and maybe, MAYBE, JvR can in others, as can Hartnell... But that time, IMO, is not now.


As for that call; look at the officiating in the Finals and throughout the history of the NHL playoffs... That call, in THAT situation, was NEVER called. The postseason is another animal entirely and that call should not have been called... I bet that the Pens would have had no problem if it was not called... not in all reality, that is.

Regardless, all player can have bad calls taken on their team in bad spots... Knuble is not the Lone Ranger in that category; look at Richards... and didn't Carter have a back breaker called earlier in the series? (also a bad call, BTW).

I want improved D, whether or not J-Bo or another player is signed... BUT it is not a matter of Knuble OR that improvement... there are many ways that Homer can skin that proverbial cat.
That call wil ALWAYS be called. It was a BLATANT Cross-Check where the person receiving the check (where exaggerated or not) nearly fell on his face. Your also talking about a situation where we on the the PP in OT of a playoff game, everyone and their moms know the refs are looking to even it up.

Come on now, be serious. If you think that was not going to be called, or should not have been called, then you need to look at this more objectively or something. All of the Flyers penalties were NOT bad calls. I know some Flyers fans would disagree, but Knuble's especially was a bad play on his part, not a bad call on the refs part.

I realize if Knuble is out that doesnt equal Jay-Bo. But I would rather spend his salary on trying to upgrade the defense. Knuble is horrid on 5-on-5 and is slow as hell. He doesnt play the puck particularly well either. He has one purpose and is a one-dimensional player on offense. He can sit in front of the net and does a damn good job of it, but we need to improve our ES game, and Knuble does not help us in that regard as much as giving Giroux Knuble's minutes with the top line.

For having such a "balanced" scoring attack, we sure SUCK at ES.

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06-23-2009, 11:54 AM
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No, I'm not saying it for that -- if I were I'd have mentioned that I've been one for over 35 years -- I was saying that I attended and watched many games, and what you are saying is bull crap.

Curse more... it makes my point look better.

TSN stats are not important... facts are... some stats prove things and disprove others... The stats fly in the face of your assertions.

I can't believe that I am arguing with a person who is delusional.
Wont be a first time I am arguing with a clown.
Someone who says.. D is important but lets re-sign Knuble because he brings leadership. What leadership? Who the **** knows?

Players does not even have "A" on his chest. **** out of here.

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06-23-2009, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
No, I'm not saying it for that -- if I were I'd have mentioned that I've been one for over 35 years -- I was saying that I attended and watched many games, and what you are saying is bull crap.

Curse more... it makes my point look better.

TSN stats are not important... facts are... some stats prove things and disprove others... The stats fly in the face of your assertions.

I can't believe that I am arguing with a person who is delusional.
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WOnt be a first time I am arguing with a moron.
Please guys, argue about hockey and refrain from name calling.

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06-23-2009, 11:58 AM
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I have no problem bringing back Knuble, but if it all comes down to money then he is better served to look elsewhere.

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06-23-2009, 11:59 AM
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I say, trade for a Knuble type vet halfway thru the season if/when we have injuries. It will be much better served then re-signing him now.

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06-23-2009, 12:00 PM
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I have no problem bringing back Knuble, but if it all comes down to money then he is better served to look elsewhere.
In cap world everything comes down to money.

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06-23-2009, 12:04 PM
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In cap world everything comes down to money.
yeah I know. not sure he takes a "hometown discount" or not.
I would rather deal for a vet that is cheap in the offseason or during the season like irishsniper mentioned then overpay to keep Knuble for a year or 2.

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06-23-2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Wont be a first time I am arguing with a clown.
Someone who says.. D is important but lets re-sign Knuble because he brings leadership. What leadership? Who the **** knows?

Players does not even have "A" on his chest. **** out of here.
I was unaware that only players with a letter on their chest can be leaders.

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06-23-2009, 12:12 PM
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Well, this only goes to prove what know nothings Stevens and the hockey experts of the World are... Knuble must have naked pictures to make them put him out in so many key situations, and Homer is an idiot to look to resign sure a worthless piece of crap as Knuble is when Cap space is so precious.

These people are all morons... But guess what... they are far superior to all of us when it comes to hockey knowledge, so what does that make us?

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06-23-2009, 12:15 PM
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I was unaware that only players with a letter on their chest can be leaders.
And the players with letters don't account for anything either, I suppose.

How many letter are available?

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06-23-2009, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Well, this only goes to prove what know nothings Stevens and the hockey experts of the World are... Knuble must have naked pictures to make them put him out in so many key situations, and Homer is an idiot to look to resign sure a worthless piece of crap as Knuble is when Cap space is so precious.

These people are all morons... But guess what... they are far superior to all of us when it comes to hockey knowledge, so what does that make us?
Jeez man, you must really LOVE Knuble. No one here said they didnt want to keep him, they just said the Flyers as a squad, would probably be better suited looking to improve in other areas, especially if Knuble wanted to much coin or if he wanted more then a 1-year deal. The fact he hasn't already signed a cheap deal makes me think he didn't take much of a hometown discount.

Also, the guy has a family and may be looking for a nice FA contract somewhere to make a little more bank for his kids and his retirement. After all, if you retire in your 30's it's best to have some serious cash saved up.

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06-23-2009, 01:31 PM
  #73
GoneFullHolmgren
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Well, this only goes to prove what know nothings Stevens and the hockey experts of the World are... Knuble must have naked pictures to make them put him out in so many key situations, and Homer is an idiot to look to resign sure a worthless piece of crap as Knuble is when Cap space is so precious.

These people are all morons... But guess what... they are far superior to all of us when it comes to hockey knowledge, so what does that make us?
how about we name you GM and you can give Knuble that blank contract for him to fill in the numbers you think he deserves.

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06-23-2009, 01:36 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I was unaware that only players with a letter on their chest can be leaders.
touche..

Tell me how Knubles "leadership" helps our team. Seriously, I would like to know. Is he somekind of a great leader? Playoff performer, clutch scorer? Big time physical presence and his heavy hit can change the out come of the game?

Fine, he is good around the net. Can not take it away from him, do not much want to. What else he does?

Explain to me, how and when he was a leader, did any of the young players ever said that Mike Knuble is an IMPORTANT part of this hockey club? When we were on 9 game losing did Mike help?

Do you think we Giroux, Lupul or Briere won't be able to pick up that scoring?

I want ****ing JayB on Flyers team, not Mike knuble like players. I would dismiss more then half of our current roster to get Jay. Simple as that. Argue or do not argue, Jay is top 4 d-men in the East behind Chara and very few others.

I would understand a fan who likes Richards, Gagne, Carter, Timonen, Coburn, Giroux or JVR and think that these guys are important now and in the future but when I argue with a fan (he/she) said been a season ticket holder for 35 years about Mike Knuble or importance of our D.. I feel like itís Friday and I am in a comedy club already and this is some bad joke.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 06-23-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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Old
06-23-2009, 01:45 PM
  #75
Sawdalite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Jeez man, you must really LOVE Knuble. No one here said they didnt want to keep him, they just said the Flyers as a squad, would probably be better suited looking to improve in other areas, especially if Knuble wanted to much coin or if he wanted more then a 1-year deal. The fact he hasn't already signed a cheap deal makes me think he didn't take much of a hometown discount.

Also, the guy has a family and may be looking for a nice FA contract somewhere to make a little more bank for his kids and his retirement. After all, if you retire in your 30's it's best to have some serious cash saved up.
That was directed to all the geniuses that said he slowed down the line, couldn't pass, was a defensive liability, did not play physical, did not play well on the boards, couldn't shoot straight over a few feet, was a one dimensional player, yada, yada, yada.

I final had enough and was sarcastic... I am annoyed that so much criticism is flat out wrong and the opposite of what is facts -- not that facts are being accepted in this thread -- I wasn't directing that at you, or necessarily what you personally wrote... I just got fed up.

I would battle for any player who had false facts and other garbage written about him... I did so for Hatcher -- who is now loved by almost all -- and others who got a bad rap for their play... Today it was Knuble... Tomorrow if anyone says that Briere cannot be crafty and play O, I will be back.



What's Love got to do, got to do with it?... Tina Turner.

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