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06-22-2009, 05:25 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Kevin19 View Post
If Holland, Lamoriello, Shero, etc. were the GM of this team in its current state would they be holding back based on a hypothetical set of conditions that might possibly come into effect in 2010-2011?

No I don't think they would. They would be aggressive and try to build the best team...period. I'm tired of waiting and seeing. Even if this imaginary windfall of available great players happens...who's to say if the right players will be available? It's stupid (imo) to sit idle and wait for other teams mistakes to benefit the Kings.
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I agree. Teams will find a way keep their best players. Even if it means having to bury a few players in the AHL.

I understand the "lets wait & see" approach, but it is getting really old. That's why I stopped giving them my hard earned money 3 yrs ago.

I think DL is doing an outstanding job drafting & developing prospects. I just hope when the time is right, he pulls the trigger & not give more excuses.

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06-22-2009, 05:28 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
While I will concede it is entirely possible that GM's like Holland, Lamoriello, Shero, Sather, Chiarelli and Holmgren will be utterly embarrassed if the cap drops....I still believe most of these guys are some of the smartest GM's in not only the NHL, but in all of sports. I am sure they have already considered the possibility of the cap going down and probably have some contingency plans in place if it does happen. They are not going to be ***** by the likes of Dean Lombardi or any other GM by giving up their best assets in order to remain cap compliant.
I agree, but they aren't going to have the room to maneuver that they have had in the past, and that's only going to help a team like the Kings.

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06-22-2009, 05:32 PM
  #78
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I agree, but they aren't going to have the room to maneuver that they have had in the past, and that's only going to help a team like the Kings.
The Kings will definitely have more options than those teams.....But what if Dean is more concerned about having money for Doughty, Moller and Simmonds? Wait 2 more years? There has to be a point where the future is now.

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06-22-2009, 05:36 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
The Kings will definitely have more options than those teams.....But what if Dean is more concerned about having money for Doughty, Moller and Simmonds? Wait 2 more years? There has to be a point where the future is now.
Oh definitely, but it's not this year. That day doesn't come until Doughty, Moller, and Simmonds are a little more mature and further developed.

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06-22-2009, 05:45 PM
  #80
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Oh definitely, but it's not this year. That day doesn't come until Doughty, Moller, and Simmonds are a little more mature and further developed.
In my opinion that is one of the biggest difference between fans on my side of the fence and fans on your side. I think the Kings really need to make a serious push before Doughty, Simmonds, Moller, Hickey and Bernier are looking at their next contracts. So that would mean the Kings need to be serious contenders before 2011-12. If the Kings miss the playoffs in 2009-10 do you think they can go from missing the playoffs to Cup contender in 2 years? It is possible but highly unlikely. I think it will be much easier for Dean to get these players to sign for hometown discounts if they are already fighting for a top spot in the Western Conference before their entry level contracts expire.

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06-22-2009, 05:50 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
In my opinion that is one of the biggest difference between fans on my side of the fence and fans on your side. I think the Kings really need to make a serious push before Doughty, Simmonds, Moller, Hickey and Bernier are looking at their next contracts. So that would mean the Kings need to be serious contenders before 2011-12. If the Kings miss the playoffs in 2009-10 do you think they can go from missing the playoffs to Cup contender in 2 years? It is possible but highly unlikely. I think it will be much easier for Dean to get these players to sign for hometown discounts if they are already fighting for a top spot in the Western Conference before their entry level contracts expire.
No! Let's wait until all the best teams are FORCED to trade their best players! Why be bold with a young team like the Pens or Caps?
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06-22-2009, 06:13 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I agree, but they aren't going to have the room to maneuver that they have had in the past, and that's only going to help a team like the Kings.
How so and what's the guarantee of that? The Kings will be only one of the teams that will have some cap space and its naive to think that "our smartest man in the room" is smarter than everyone else's.


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06-22-2009, 06:22 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
In my opinion that is one of the biggest difference between fans on my side of the fence and fans on your side. I think the Kings really need to make a serious push before Doughty, Simmonds, Moller, Hickey and Bernier are looking at their next contracts. So that would mean the Kings need to be serious contenders before 2011-12. If the Kings miss the playoffs in 2009-10 do you think they can go from missing the playoffs to Cup contender in 2 years? It is possible but highly unlikely. I think it will be much easier for Dean to get these players to sign for hometown discounts if they are already fighting for a top spot in the Western Conference before their entry level contracts expire.
By serious, I assume you mean Stanley Cup favorites in two seasons?

No, I don't see that happening, but they need to at least be in the playoff hunt right until the bitter end this coming season and making the playoffs would be better.

I would hope that by the 2013 playoffs they are capable of going to the conference finals at least. It took a long time for the Blackhawks to get where they are now.

Guys like Keith (4 full NHL seasons + 2 full seasons in the AHL), Barker (a full season in the NHL, and parts of two others, 3 full seasons as a pro), Seabrook (4 full NHL seasons), and Sharp (8 full seasons as a pro) make up a big part of their core and give you a pretty good idea of how long it might take.

Obviously Kane and Toews have less experience, but even those two very high picks took some time to break in.

What does Johnson have? 1 1/2 seasons as a pro. Doughty? 1 season. Sure Brown has been around longer, but he is still very young and he isn't exactly on the same level as Toews or Kane, Kopitar may be soon if he learns how to bust his butt.

I'm just trying to point out that if you're insisting on the sky being the limit in two more years, it probably isn't going to happen.

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06-22-2009, 06:22 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
The Kings will definitely have more options than those teams.....But what if Dean is more concerned about having money for Doughty, Moller and Simmonds? Wait 2 more years? There has to be a point where the future is now.
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Oh definitely, but it's not this year. That day doesn't come until Doughty, Moller, and Simmonds are a little more mature and further developed.
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
In my opinion that is one of the biggest difference between fans on my side of the fence and fans on your side. I think the Kings really need to make a serious push before Doughty, Simmonds, Moller, Hickey and Bernier are looking at their next contracts. So that would mean the Kings need to be serious contenders before 2011-12. If the Kings miss the playoffs in 2009-10 do you think they can go from missing the playoffs to Cup contender in 2 years? It is possible but highly unlikely. I think it will be much easier for Dean to get these players to sign for hometown discounts if they are already fighting for a top spot in the Western Conference before their entry level contracts expire.
I think that is it in a nut shell. We all know which posters have more patience than others, and I haven't gone back in the posts, but my recollection is that many of the posters who are ok standing pat this off-season said that last year wasnt important but that that this year would be. I can't keep giving management a pass (although I'm not certain I ever have) simply because of future expectations and assumptions. I was ok originally with the 5 year plan, but there have been so many times we have been told that we must still wait that the five year plan went out the window. But then DL said last year that things were coming together faster than he expected. Just not as fast as he told us they would. (So that is at least one occasion where whats been said isnt what was truly expected or what happened)

In my mind, the future is here and DL needs to get this team over the hump to start instilling a winning culture, because what is getting reinforced is not winning, but something else. And waiting on the cap to change may be wise, but may not bring the windfall DL needs to make this team a contender in the near future.

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06-22-2009, 06:34 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
By serious, I assume you mean Stanley Cup favorites in two seasons?

No, I don't see that happening, but they need to at least be in the playoff hunt right until the bitter end this coming season and making the playoffs would be better.

I would hope that by the 2013 playoffs they are capable of going to the conference finals at least. It took a long time for the Blackhawks to get where they are now.

Guys like Keith (4 full NHL seasons + 2 full seasons in the AHL), Barker (a full season in the NHL, and parts of two others, 3 full seasons as a pro), Seabrook (4 full NHL seasons), and Sharp (8 full seasons as a pro) make up a big part of their core and give you a pretty good idea of how long it might take.

Obviously Kane and Toews have less experience, but even those two very high picks took some time to break in.

What does Johnson have? 1 1/2 seasons as a pro. Doughty? 1 season. Sure Brown has been around longer, but he is still very young and he isn't exactly on the same level as Toews or Kane, Kopitar may be soon if he learns how to bust his butt.

I'm just trying to point out that if you're insisting on the sky being the limit in two more years, it probably isn't going to happen.
If I read your post correctly, and I am trying to, it sounds like you are saying its going to be about a seven to eight year turn-around process, or more. That seems long, and if that is what DL and Co envision, my beef is that it wasnt I (we) was told.

Instead, we were sold on a five year plan, designed (or merely uttered?,) obviously to minimize the loss of interest by fans who have waited for so long already. That is where the anger stems (and likely the shill reference as well) when I have to keep hearing about planning for the future, because the future has yet to be NOW, and despite management's continued plea that we be patient still, we have yet to be told the real time of arrival of our winning culture, perenially contending team.

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06-22-2009, 07:18 PM
  #86
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Obviously Kane and Toews have less experience, but even those two very high picks took some time to break in.
Kane scored 21 goals and 72 points as an 19 year old rookie......he followed that up with a 25 goal, 70 point season as a 20 year old.

Toews scored 24 goals and 54 points as a 19 year old rookie.....he followed that up with a 34 goal, 69 point season as a 20 year old.

That is not very much time at all.

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What does Johnson have? 1 1/2 seasons as a pro. Doughty? 1 season. Sure Brown has been around longer, but he is still very young and he isn't exactly on the same level as Toews or Kane, Kopitar may be soon if he learns how to bust his butt.

I'm just trying to point out that if you're insisting on the sky being the limit in two more years, it probably isn't going to happen.
Chicago is making their best strides while their best players are still on their entry level deals......The Kings need to do the same thing....because in 3 years when the Kings best prospects are looking for their 2nd contracts Dean is going to have to pick and choose which ones to keep because in all likelyhood the budget will not allow him to retain them all. That is why the window to win the Cup is not as big as people may believe. Even Pittsburgh won the Stanley Cup before Malkin's raise kicked in....next year the team will have to shed some salary and that will probably affect their ability to repeat as champions.

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06-22-2009, 08:14 PM
  #87
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Who do DL and co. think they're going to get with this strategy? They must have certain players in mind right? I mean, they can't be holding back on the building of this team in hopes of some random collection of great players (who also happen to be great locker room "DL" type of guys) that will be available for the choosing, can they?

It's garbage. The players that will be available are the Gomez's, Briere's, etc. right? The teams over the cap will start by trying to trade their worst contracts along with a draft pick or two (remember Roenick?), and then if that doesn't work they will bury someone in the minors. Trading a great player with a fair/decent contract (which will be the only players DL would want) is the LAST thing these teams will do.

If you're Detroit in 2011 and the cap is at 48 million, you're not going to trade Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Franzen. You're going to trade Stuart or Rafalski or Filpulla and then send Hudler to Grand Rapids or something. Is DL hoping that some other team's last resort will land him the player(s) he needs? So much so that he's holding off on possible moves that would improve the team RIGHT NOW???

It's so stupid (imo) to have some long shot hail mary like this as a strategy to build a team.

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06-22-2009, 08:29 PM
  #88
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Who do DL and co. think they're going to get with this strategy? They must have certain players in mind right? I mean, they can't be holding back on the building of this team in hopes of some random collection of great players (who also happen to be great locker room "DL" type of guys) that will be available for the choosing, can they?

It's garbage. The players that will be available are the Gomez's, Briere's, etc. right? The teams over the cap will start by trying to trade their worst contracts along with a draft pick or two (remember Roenick?), and then if that doesn't work they will bury someone in the minors. Trading a great player with a fair/decent contract (which will be the only players DL would want) is the LAST thing these teams will do.

If you're Detroit in 2011 and the cap is at 48 million, you're not going to trade Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Franzen. You're going to trade Stuart or Rafalski or Filpulla and then send Hudler to Grand Rapids or something. Is DL hoping that some other team's last resort will land him the player(s) he needs? So much so that he's holding off on possible moves that would improve the team RIGHT NOW???

It's so stupid (imo) to have some long shot hail mary like this as a strategy to build a team.
I agree, if that is his strategy he is setting himself up to be extremely disappointed.

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06-22-2009, 08:30 PM
  #89
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It's so stupid (imo) to have some long shot hail mary like this as a strategy to build a team.
Thankfully DL isn't using that strategy.

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06-22-2009, 08:42 PM
  #90
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Kane scored 21 goals and 72 points as an 19 year old rookie......he followed that up with a 25 goal, 70 point season as a 20 year old.

Toews scored 24 goals and 54 points as a 19 year old rookie.....he followed that up with a 34 goal, 69 point season as a 20 year old.

That is not very much time at all.



Chicago is making their best strides while their best players are still on their entry level deals......The Kings need to do the same thing....because in 3 years when the Kings best prospects are looking for their 2nd contracts Dean is going to have to pick and choose which ones to keep because in all likelyhood the budget will not allow him to retain them all. That is why the window to win the Cup is not as big as people may believe. Even Pittsburgh won the Stanley Cup before Malkin's raise kicked in....next year the team will have to shed some salary and that will probably affect their ability to repeat as champions.
Tell us when you think the Kings' window is going to be closed, because it has just been opened only a crack so far.

The Blackhawks are done in 2-3 years, because after that Kane and Toews won't be on their ELCs anymore?

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06-22-2009, 08:54 PM
  #91
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Not a single game has been played yet but they way everyone talks the season lives or dies this week.

It's a long summer and there will be opportunity for the kings to acquire whomever they need to get.

I've been campaigning for an elite scorer for a long time but maybe LA doesn't need to hit that homerun this year, maybe a double will do. More ingrediants have to come together than just dropping a scorer into the mix.

There are to many variables right now to predect what will happen come October.

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06-22-2009, 08:55 PM
  #92
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Tell us when you think the Kings' window is going to be closed, because it has just been opened only a crack so far.
Well let's see you talk about the cap dropping in the next 2-3 years yet think the Kings are going to come up with the money to pay all of Frolov, Quick, Doughty, Moller, Simmonds, Hickey and Bernier raises? One of the reasons that the Penguins were able to ice a team that had both Malkin and Crosby on it with money left over to pay other players is because Malkin is still on his ELC.....when his next contract kicks in the Penguins are goin to have significantly less depth than their Cup winning team. Going forward teams are going to have to take advantage of players who are contributing significantly more on the ice than their cap hit would otherwise indicate...(see Penguins and Blackhawks).

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The Blackhawks are done in 2-3 years, because after that Kane and Toews won't be on their ELCs anymore?
I am sure that Blackhawks fans are aware that when Kane and Toews entry level deals are up it is going to be difficult for them to have enough money to fill out the rest of the roster with anything more than league minimum salaries. That is one of the reasons winning when these players are still on their ELC's is crucial...if a player like Kane or Toews values being on a winning team more than getting a hefty raise they might give the Blackhawks a deal come contract time (see teams like Red Wings and Devils)....but if the Blackhawks are in the cellar of the league I am sure the money demands go up significantly.

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06-22-2009, 08:58 PM
  #93
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Not a single game has been played yet but they way everyone talks the season lives or dies this week.

It's a long summer and there will be opportunity for the kings to acquire whomever they need to get.

I've been campaigning for an elite scorer for a long time but maybe LA doesn't need to hit that homerun this year, maybe a double will do. More ingrediants have to come together than just dropping a scorer into the mix.

There are to many variables right now to predect what will happen come October.
Something you might not be considering though KOTR....if Dean does not make enough progress this season to make ownership happy about the direction of this team there might be a new GM this time next year. Do you think the new GM will have the same strategy as Dean? Or will he blow it up again to build the team the way that he wants? Then we are in for another 2-3 years of "rebuilding". At some point Dean needs to make a push towards the playoffs....if he doesn't do it this season he might not have a chance....He can only expect so much patience form these fans.

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06-22-2009, 09:04 PM
  #94
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I don't disagree but I think the kings will be better next year than last year.

Gauthier, Armstrong, and Calder will be gone.

Simmonds and Moller could have a larger roll.

Quick, Ersberg, and maybe Bernier will be here all year.

Some prospects could surprise at camp.

I think DL will do what he can to improve the top six.

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06-22-2009, 09:11 PM
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Thankfully DL isn't using that strategy.
Well that's weird Tony, I could have sworn I read a recap of the breakfast with the GM thing and Solomon had charts showing how in 2010-2011 the Kings will be in great financial shape compared to other teams because of the salary cap going down. In fact, Dean even asked people to "remember that when you send your emails on July 2nd and 3rd". What do you suppose he meant by that?

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06-22-2009, 09:23 PM
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I don't disagree but I think the kings will be better next year than last year.

Gauthier, Armstrong, and Calder will be gone.

Simmonds and Moller could have a larger roll.

Quick, Ersberg, and maybe Bernier will be here all year.

Some prospects could surprise at camp.

I think DL will do what he can to improve the top six.
I agree that the young players on the Kings roster will mature and improve.

But, do you think that the Kings have a monopoly on young talented players that will improve?

Look at the Blues, Blue Jackets, Blackhawks, Coyotes and Oilers.

They have some talented young players that have no reached their peaks yet. The Kings are going to have to do more than just rely on the kids maturing one year to surpass all of the teams ahead of them....and getting one or two 2nd tier players is not going to be enough to push them over the top.

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06-23-2009, 01:34 AM
  #97
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I agree that the young players on the Kings roster will mature and improve.

But, do you think that the Kings have a monopoly on young talented players that will improve?

Look at the Blues, Blue Jackets, Blackhawks, Coyotes and Oilers.

They have some talented young players that have no reached their peaks yet. The Kings are going to have to do more than just rely on the kids maturing one year to surpass all of the teams ahead of them....and getting one or two 2nd tier players is not going to be enough to push them over the top.
Monopoly? No. More than anybody else that you listed? Maybe not the Blackhawks, but yes. I am positive that this team will improve organically "just by getting a year older" and would make the playoffs even if we did go the relatively disappointing route of getting Sturm or Ponikarovsky and doing nothing else. Look at Columbus, Philadelphia, and St. Louis. They didn't add anything significant, essentially they just got older and more experienced.

For the record, I also feel that now is when the iron is hot. That is why I was a proponent of getting Lecavalier. However, those pipe dreams of getting a guy like Lecavalier or Gaborik in my mind make the Kings a threat rather than just a first round speed-bump for the Red Wings on their way to the Cup.


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06-23-2009, 08:39 AM
  #98
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Monopoly? No. More than anybody else that you listed? Maybe not the Blackhawks, but yes. I am positive that this team will improve organically "just by getting a year older" and would make the playoffs even if we did go the relatively disappointing route of getting Sturm or Ponikarovsky and doing nothing else. Look at Columbus, Philadelphia, and St. Louis. They didn't add anything significant, essentially they just got older and more experienced.

For the record, I also feel that now is when the iron is hot. That is why I was a proponent of getting Lecavalier. However, those pipe dreams of getting a guy like Lecavalier or Gaborik in my mind make the Kings a threat rather than just a first round speed-bump for the Red Wings on their way to the Cup.
The Blue Jackets had 2 or 3 legitimate Calder Trophy candidates this year....The Blues have some of the best young players in the league.....and if you think Phoenix is going to regress with their young talent you are crazy.

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06-23-2009, 11:45 AM
  #99
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Well that's weird Tony, I could have sworn I read a recap of the breakfast with the GM thing and Solomon had charts showing how in 2010-2011 the Kings will be in great financial shape compared to other teams because of the salary cap going down. In fact, Dean even asked people to "remember that when you send your emails on July 2nd and 3rd". What do you suppose he meant by that?
Solomon is not saying that to imply that he needs to make sure payroll is low so DL can snap up free agents from teams that have to dump key players due to poor cap management so he can build a team. That's counter to everything DL has said (and done) re: building from within.

He's saying that he needs to be sure the Kings have the cap space to retain the players they want to retain that are already developing within the organization. If the cap drops in 2 years as much as people are projecting, a majority of teams in the league are going to have cap problems which will cause them to lose key players and (theoretically) damage their team's chances of competing. The Kings are trying to prevent that from happening.

- T

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06-23-2009, 11:52 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
He's saying that he needs to be sure the Kings have the cap space to retain the players they want to retain that are already developing within the organization. If the cap drops in 2 years as much as people are projecting, a majority of teams in the league are going to have cap problems which will cause them to lose key players and (theoretically) damage their team's chances of competing. The Kings are trying to prevent that from happening.
If a majority of the teams are having cap problems due to an economic downturn, IMO it's much more likely that the league will change the cap - perhaps let the bottom figure drop and leave the top figure.

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