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Operating in the Era of a Falling Salary Cap

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Old
06-23-2009, 12:36 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
The Blue Jackets had 2 or 3 legitimate Calder Trophy candidates this year....The Blues have some of the best young players in the league.....and if you think Phoenix is going to regress with their young talent you are crazy.
Columbus had ONE legitimate Calder candidate (we had two). The other guys didn't contribute enough to be in the running, and they still made the playoffs.

That isn't the point anyways. I'm just saying that I think this team will improve more than the ones you mentioned.

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06-23-2009, 12:43 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
If a majority of the teams are having cap problems due to an economic downturn, IMO it's much more likely that the league will change the cap - perhaps let the bottom figure drop and leave the top figure.
No it won't. That would be just a band-aid fix and essentially an admission that the CBA is junk. Widening the range is probably the last thing the NHL will do if it is trying to say that contraction isn't the answer. The right answer would be to let the teams that screwed themselves over eat their mistakes and move on. If they "learn" from that in future years then the cap will have served its intended purpose.

Either way, I don't think it will be the majority that will be in serious trouble with the cap, just a handful. And even then I don't see fire-sales across the board. Just some deals on players with bad contracts that we likely wouldn't want anyways.

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06-23-2009, 01:49 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
No it won't. That would be just a band-aid fix and essentially an admission that the CBA is junk. Widening the range is probably the last thing the NHL will do if it is trying to say that contraction isn't the answer. The right answer would be to let the teams that screwed themselves over eat their mistakes and move on. If they "learn" from that in future years then the cap will have served its intended purpose.

Either way, I don't think it will be the majority that will be in serious trouble with the cap, just a handful. And even then I don't see fire-sales across the board. Just some deals on players with bad contracts that we likely wouldn't want anyways.
Which means conserving cap space to gain an advantage by obtaining quality players on the cheap isnt going to be a successful strategy. As I have said before, I'd rather have to deal with cap space problems than have to watch only other teams after April 15.

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06-23-2009, 01:51 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
No it won't. That would be just a band-aid fix and essentially an admission that the CBA is junk. Widening the range is probably the last thing the NHL will do if it is trying to say that contraction isn't the answer. The right answer would be to let the teams that screwed themselves over eat their mistakes and move on. If they "learn" from that in future years then the cap will have served its intended purpose.
The "right" answer is that the NHL is entertainment, not a morality play. If keeping the salary cap tight is going to stifle a majority of the teams so that they aren't able to keep their entertaining players, the cap will change.

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06-23-2009, 03:03 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Which means conserving cap space to gain an advantage by obtaining quality players on the cheap isnt going to be a successful strategy. As I have said before, I'd rather have to deal with cap space problems than have to watch only other teams after April 15.
Right, as long as we're not squandering the cap space on players that are far from ideal (i.e., Briere). That coupled with my impatience for waiting for this team to be good was what had me convinced that acquiring a guy like Lecavalier was a good idea. A guy like that won't be available for as cheap as he supposedly was any time soon.

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06-23-2009, 03:50 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
The "right" answer is that the NHL is entertainment, not a morality play. If keeping the salary cap tight is going to stifle a majority of the teams so that they aren't able to keep their entertaining players, the cap will change.
OK, this is two issues.

1. The point of the salary cap is to FORCE the deeper-pocketed teams to let go of some of their entertaining players (or rather, prevent them from poaching them from the poorer teams). Either you keep the cap tight or don't have it at all.

2. If the salary cap is stifling a majority of the teams, then it was poorly designed. But it's not. It's just a handful, and for each team you can point to multiple transaction "mistakes" that they could have not made that would leave them in a better position now.

The current salary cap is working well enough that there isn't a reason for the NHL to drastically change it.

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06-23-2009, 04:16 PM
  #107
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ukyo -

You have to see it from PSP's perspective. Anything that could possibly benefit the Kings due to other teams screwing up their cap will not be allowed to happen.

The team will either figure out how to get around the problem, or the NHL will let them slide. Lombardi should have known all along that this was going to happen, and therefore it was a waste of time and effort for him to try and manage using the salary cap. Besides, the whole salary cap thing was just a smoke screen to allow AEG to spend less money.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

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06-23-2009, 04:39 PM
  #108
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The issue about cap relief, if there even is one, will be easier to quantify after this season starts and then each team's management group can compile their own charts as to how much money each team has tied up in salaries for the upcoming 2010-2011season.

If I read the GM breakfast interview correctly, some teams, like Philly and New York, cant possibly ice full rostered teams in 2010-2011, based upon the amount of salary they will have tied up in a small number of players such that even filling out their rosters with minimum salaried players will put them ov the cap. It remains to be seen if there will even be enough space league wide to fit the guaranteed contracts that will be in existence next year and continuing on until 2010-2011 if the cap drops to the worst case scenario spoken of by Solomon of 48MM.

If that turns out to be the case, and I don't know if that will be or won't be, I think the league would be pressured by both the cap hell teams and the NHLPA to provide some relief rather than force many mid-level players to play AHL hockey or go elsewhere.

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06-23-2009, 06:32 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
The issue about cap relief, if there even is one, will be easier to quantify after this season starts and then each team's management group can compile their own charts as to how much money each team has tied up in salaries for the upcoming 2010-2011season.

If I read the GM breakfast interview correctly, some teams, like Philly and New York, cant possibly ice full rostered teams in 2010-2011, based upon the amount of salary they will have tied up in a small number of players such that even filling out their rosters with minimum salaried players will put them ov the cap. It remains to be seen if there will even be enough space league wide to fit the guaranteed contracts that will be in existence next year and continuing on until 2010-2011 if the cap drops to the worst case scenario spoken of by Solomon of 48MM.

If that turns out to be the case, and I don't know if that will be or won't be, I think the league would be pressured by both the cap hell teams and the NHLPA to provide some relief rather than force many mid-level players to play AHL hockey or go elsewhere.

People are blowing this way out of proportion. Most of the teams that appear to be in cap hell right now will figure out a way to get their teams cap compliant before the 2009-10 season begins.....and they will figure a way to do it before the 2010-11 season as well.

I already stated there are several ways for teams to shed salary without giving up their best players.....trading draft picks to get teams to take on salary, buy-outs, "mysterious" long-term injuries and overpaid journeymen players hid in the AHL.

These teams will not be held hostage by Dean or any other GM wanting a team's top talent for a minuscule return.

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06-23-2009, 06:57 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
Columbus had ONE legitimate Calder candidate (we had two). The other guys didn't contribute enough to be in the running, and they still made the playoffs.
I think you are forgetting Derick Brassard....throught the first 31 games of the season he had 10 goals and 25 points....if it wasn't for an unfortunate injury I believe he would have challenged teammate Steve Mason for the Calder.....I also believe that Voracek had a decent season as well...if he would have scored more goals he would have been a legitimate Calder Trophy contender as well.

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Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
That isn't the point anyways. I'm just saying that I think this team will improve more than the ones you mentioned.
I know it is popular on the Kings board to believe that the Kings propsects are significantly better than those of other teams...but when you look at some of the other teams prospects a reasonable person will see that many of them are just as good, if not better.

Columbus
Jacob Voracek
Derick Brassard
Steve Mason

Chicago
Patrick Kane
Jonathan Toews
Kris Versteeg
Dave Bolland
Cam Barker

Phoenix
Peter Mueller
Martin Hanzal
Kyle Turris
Viktor Tikhonov

Blues
Patrik Berglund
Erik Johnson
T.J. Oshie
David Perron

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06-23-2009, 07:02 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Most of the teams that appear to be in cap hell right now will figure out a way to get their teams cap compliant before the 2009-10 season begins.....and they will figure a way to do it before the 2010-11 season as well.

I already stated there are several ways for teams to shed salary without giving up their best players.....trading draft picks to get teams to take on salary, buy-outs, "mysterious" long-term injuries and overpaid journeymen players hid in the AHL.

These teams will not be held hostage by Dean or any other GM wanting a team's top talent for a minuscule return.
So does that lead to the conclusion that we are continually going to hear that we cant spend to the cap because we will always have to be concerned about getting those players whose contracts are up next year or the year after under the cap?

If so, I wish to take this opportunity to personally Thank Tim Lie-Weekly for the final straw that breaks the camel's back in regard to having any faith that what this organization says will in any way ever comport with the truth of what it does.

Thanks Tim.

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06-23-2009, 07:03 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Most of the teams that appear to be in cap hell right now will figure out a way to get their teams cap compliant before the 2009-10 season begins.....and they will figure a way to do it before the 2010-11 season as well.

I already stated there are several ways for teams to shed salary without giving up their best players.....trading draft picks to get teams to take on salary, buy-outs, "mysterious" long-term injuries and overpaid journeymen players hid in the AHL.

These teams will not be held hostage by Dean or any other GM wanting a team's top talent for a minuscule return.
I agree that all those teams will figure out a way to make their situations work. The question is whether or not Lombardi stands to profit from any of their solutions. If you look on the Philly board, they were considering trading Gagne to LA as a way to free up space for Bouwmeester and still have enough money to pay Giroux. That would have been unthinkable a season ago.

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06-23-2009, 07:05 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
I agree that all those teams will figure out a way to make their situations work. The question is whether or not Lombardi stands to profit from any of their solutions. If you look on the Philly board, they were considering trading Gagne to LA as a way to free up space for Bouwmeester and still have enough money to pay Giroux. That would have been unthinkable a season ago.
I am less concerned with what the Philly board considers than what is considered in the Philly BOARDROOM!

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06-23-2009, 07:17 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
I agree that all those teams will figure out a way to make their situations work. The question is whether or not Lombardi stands to profit from any of their solutions. If you look on the Philly board, they were considering trading Gagne to LA as a way to free up space for Bouwmeester and still have enough money to pay Giroux. That would have been unthinkable a season ago.
Well that could indeed be the case....but I think the Flyers would sign Bouwmeester 1st....then trade Gagne......so in essence they are trading Gagne for Bouwmeester.....which I am sure they would have done a season ago. And even if the Flyers offered Dean Gagne after signing Bouwmeester they would be asking for more than people on these boards are proposing.

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06-23-2009, 07:22 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
ukyo -

You have to see it from PSP's perspective. Anything that could possibly benefit the Kings due to other teams screwing up their cap will not be allowed to happen.

The team will either figure out how to get around the problem, or the NHL will let them slide. Lombardi should have known all along that this was going to happen, and therefore it was a waste of time and effort for him to try and manage using the salary cap. Besides, the whole salary cap thing was just a smoke screen to allow AEG to spend less money.

I think that pretty much sums it up.
You forgot the black helicopters...

There have been a number of scenarios over the last 10 years where the Kings were planning for some disastrous situation to bedevil the higher level teams - so far, none of those have panned out.

The show is more important in the grand scheme than anything. If the game isn't entertaining because a majority of the teams can't ice the best players in the game due to cap hell caused by a downturn in the economy, everyone loses. The simple solution is to ease the cap restrictions for contracts before a certain date - i.e., the maximum cap hit for a player signed to a contract before 7/1/2009 is $5 mil regardless of the actual contract numbers.


Last edited by PSP: 06-23-2009 at 08:23 PM.
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06-23-2009, 07:27 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
You forgot the black helicopters...

There have been a number of scenarios over the last 10 years where the Kings were planning for some disasterous situation to bedevil the higher level teams - so far, none of those have panned out.

The show is more important in the grand scheme than anything. If the game isn't entertaining because a majority of the teams can't ice the best players in the game due to cap hell caused by a downturn in the economy, everyone loses. The simple solution is to ease the cap restrictions for contracts before a certain date - i.e., the maximum cap hit for a player signed to a contract before 7/1/2009 is $5 mil regardless of the actual contract numbers.
PSP....I do not think the NHL is going to bail out teams with high payrolls....but there is a lot of options for these teams that avoids the catastrophy that some are predicting.....something as simple as the NHLPA using the 5% inflator to artificially inflate the cap in order to keep teams from experiencing "cap hell".

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06-23-2009, 08:10 PM
  #117
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[QUOTE=PSP;20024979]You forgot the black helicopters...

There have been a number of scenarios over the last 10 years where the Kings were planning for some disasterous situation to bedevil the higher level teams - so far, none of those have panned out. [QUOTE]

If I remember correctly Detroit and the Rangers would be screwed once a cap was in place because they always spent money on the top free agents? They seem to be doing OK. Detroit is a dynasty and the Rangers are a pretty good team even though they still throw money at the big name free agents. Drury and Gomez are over paid yet they still made the playoffs? What gives? And the Kings still get shut out in free agency, partially because of a restriction on spending, partially on the fact the team blows and has blown for years as they continue to wait for mysterious circumstances that never arise. Wait til the cap goes down, 5 year plan, re-build of a re-build, it's a process, we've got a solid core, we have to build up the farm system=excuses not to win now.

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06-23-2009, 09:39 PM
  #118
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Every time I read one of Piston's posts, I feel like I have become a little bit smarter.

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06-23-2009, 09:43 PM
  #119
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Every time I read one of Piston's posts, I feel like I have become a little bit smarter.
Piston is the college professor for Kings fans......I am the rebellious smart ass who likes to talk back to the teacher.

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06-23-2009, 10:22 PM
  #120
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Piston is the college professor for Kings fans......I am the rebellious smart ass who likes to talk back to the teacher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Y80ue92Ao

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06-24-2009, 12:17 AM
  #121
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All Gm's should be signed to 5yr deals with a 30 day escape clause for the owners every summer! Its these idiots who keep giving out crazy money to the Commodore and Fingers of the world!

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06-24-2009, 12:52 AM
  #122
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You're being overly pessimistic in order to lower your own expectations for this season, aren't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
I think you are forgetting Derick Brassard....throught the first 31 games of the season he had 10 goals and 25 points....if it wasn't for an unfortunate injury I believe he would have challenged teammate Steve Mason for the Calder.....I also believe that Voracek had a decent season as well...if he would have scored more goals he would have been a legitimate Calder Trophy contender as well.
I didn't forget Brassard, I just didn't think Voracek was even close to the running. If you think Voracek could have been a legitimate candidate then you could make a similar argument for Simmonds.

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I know it is popular on the Kings board to believe that the Kings propsects are significantly better than those of other teams...but when you look at some of the other teams prospects a reasonable person will see that many of them are just as good, if not better.
OK... let's not just pick some random names, let's go lineup by lineup, and let's highlight the players that are under 27 (I'm arbitrarily picking 27 since I don't know what the "prime" age is for hockey and they use 27 in baseball). You're telling me that you don't think that this lineup:

Los Angeles
F: Frolov-Kopitar-Williams
F: Purcell-Stoll-Brown
F: Simmonds-Handzus-Moller
D: Doughty-Drewiske
D: Greene-Quincey
D: Johnson-O'Donnell
G: Quick

has more potential for improvement this season than the following lineups?:

Columbus
F: Nash-Umberger-Huselius
F: Brassard-Voracek-Chimera/Filatov (let's assume he contributes at a high level)
F: Modin-Vermette-Torres
D: Commodore-Hejda
D: Tyutin-Klesla
D: Russell-Methot
G: Mason

St. Louis
F: Backes-McDonald-Boyes
F: Kariya-Oshie-Berglund
F: Perron-Steen-Tkachuk
D: Johnson-McKee
D: Brewer-Jackman
D: Colaiacovo-Strachan
G: Mason

Phoenix
F: Doan-Mueller-Turris
F: Lombardi-Prucha-Upshall
F: Hanzal-Boedker-Tikhonov
D: Jovanovski-Klee
D: Michalek-Sauer
D: Yandle-Hale
G: Bryzgalov

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06-24-2009, 03:56 AM
  #123
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You're being overly pessimistic in order to lower your own expectations for this season, aren't you?
No....I just removed my homer glasses a long time ago and realized that a player is not better and does not have more potential than those of other teams just because they wear a Kings jersey.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
OK... let's not just pick some random names, let's go lineup by lineup, and let's highlight the players that are under 27 (I'm arbitrarily picking 27 since I don't know what the "prime" age is for hockey and they use 27 in baseball). You're telling me that you don't think that this lineup:

Los Angeles
F: Frolov-Kopitar-Williams
F: Purcell-Stoll-Brown
F: Simmonds-Handzus-Moller
D: Doughty-Drewiske
D: Greene-Quincey
D: Johnson-O'Donnell
G: Quick

has more potential for improvement this season than the following lineups?:......
Honestly?.......no.

The Kings have some great young players...but other than Doughty none of them are considered elite. That does not give them an advantage over any other team that has one elite prospect with a handful of great ones. Pittsburgh and Chicago had/have the edge over other teams because they had/have more than one elite player (Chicago=Kane/Toews).....(Pittsburgh=Crosby/Malkin).

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06-24-2009, 01:16 PM
  #124
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No....I just removed my homer glasses a long time ago and realized that a player is not better and does not have more potential than those of other teams just because they wear a Kings jersey.
Fair enough, but I'm not even getting into a tirade about how each individual player has such and such going for him. This is purely based on age and assuming that growth starts to plateau at 27. In retrospect I could have just as well listed average ages of each team and skipped all the names.

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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
Honestly?.......no.

The Kings have some great young players...but other than Doughty none of them are considered elite. That does not give them an advantage over any other team that has one elite prospect with a handful of great ones. Pittsburgh and Chicago had/have the edge over other teams because they had/have more than one elite player (Chicago=Kane/Toews).....(Pittsburgh=Crosby/Malkin).
I think Kopitar is an elite young player and I don't think that the groups in St. Louis, Columbus, and Phoenix have more talent than we do. You disagree, ok, I respect your opinion. I think it's wrong, but I respect it.

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06-26-2009, 10:00 AM
  #125
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Well....so much for the "Era of the falling salary cap"

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=282925

Quote:
The league has been telling general managers and owners that the cap number could be $57.1-million, up a few hundred thousand from last season's maximum of $56.7-million.

The Players' Association has been telling their group it will come in just under $57-million or roughly the same as last year.

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