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Old
06-23-2009, 12:01 PM
  #201
BobbyClarkeFan16
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Kids or no kids. Thats not even an argument, for 6.5M a year Briere can buy anything he wants for him and his kids.

Salary cap is going down and we have to move you. So start packing.
And once again, Briere can argue "I have a no movement clause. I'm going nowhere. You can move someone else. And don't even think about waiving me or sending me to the minors or even sending me home. You can't do that either because of my no movement clause." Face it, Briere is going nowhere.

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06-23-2009, 12:02 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Yeah, but the guys who would fill in for those day to day guys were being called up on game days and sent back down on practice days for weeks sometimes. They were definitely banking cap space.
With LTIR and the cap being calculated daily, we were not "banking" anything. If we dont use it, we lose it until LTIR is empty. We did the shuffle thing due to AHL/NHL contract restrictions that limit call ups and send downs. If you call up a guy so many times, even a 2-way guy, you eventually have to place him on waivers (I believe). The thinking is if the guy is good enough to barely crack your squad, he might be able to get a fulltime role elsewhere.

We were calling up different guys and then sending them down again to keep us from having to put one guy on waivers after a while. That we we get to keep all the players in our minor league system and try out a wider variety of guys to see how they fair in the NHL.

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06-23-2009, 12:05 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Um, you never average your players' salaries. That would make no sense. They have different cap hits for a reason. If it didn't work the way IB and I said, why did the Flyers continuously shuffle players to the Flyers on game days and the Phantoms on practice days a few years back? There's no other reason than they were tight to the cap and banking space.
Because then you're not spending money on players, but "banking" isn't the way to think about it. Please look up in the thread I pulled the direct quote from the CBA for how this is calculated. The way the salary cap works is as an average for your teams monetary output.

The number IB is pulling is what the upper limit "average" is. This is why when you trade for a player at the deadline you can take on a player with a higher "cap hit" for his contract than you have "cap space" if you just look at the numbers in an absolute sense. This is because you are taking on only a portion of the contract, which is then distributed across your cap situation as an "average." So, for example you trade for a 6M contract with a third of the season left...you are only on the hook for 2M which gets distributed.

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06-23-2009, 12:05 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
All of this is true, which is why the EASIEST way is to just tack on whatever you have as LTIR to the salary cap if the player is never going to play for the team. The entirety of Rathje and Hatcher's salary was on LTIR, therefore you could push your average up within the constraints of their salary line over the daily limit.

The reason I'm just dealing with the cap number, as opposed to whatever LTIR overage you are using is that is where it starts to get complicated with what you're using and not using. But the point is that you can use that space if you so choose. LTIR is only eating active cap space over the course of the season if the player plays in games. Otherwise, you can use that money, because the LTIR expands what you're allowed to spend on average.

LTIR players bring the limit UP...if the player stays on the sidellines the entire season, the limit is always up and never comes down.
Bingo. LTIR is good for bringing in players to replaced injured players, but it isn't all good. There is a draw back. Also how LTIR works in the off-season kinda sucks if your LTIR exceeds 10% of your teams salary like it did for the Flyers last year.

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06-23-2009, 12:08 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because then you're not spending money on players, but "banking" isn't the way to think about it. Please look up in the thread I pulled the direct quote from the CBA for how this is calculated. The way the salary cap works is as an average for your teams monetary output.

The number IB is pulling is what the upper limit "average" is. This is why when you trade for a player at the deadline you can take on a player with a higher "cap hit" for his contract than you have "cap space" if you just look at the numbers in an absolute sense. This is because you are taking on only a portion of the contract, which is then distributed across your cap situation as an "average." So, for example you trade for a 6M contract with a third of the season left...you are only on the hook for 2M which gets distributed.
Exactly! Think of it like your signing a free agent to a $6 mill dollar deal, it just gets pro-rated and distributed on the daily cap. Your not on the hook for his $6 mill salary, only his DAILY HIT!

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06-23-2009, 12:08 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Kids or no kids. Thats not even an argument, for 6.5M a year Briere can buy anything he wants for him and his kids.

Salary cap is going down and we have to move you. So start packing.
Can money buy them longtime friends?

No...I like it here. It's really THAT simple. Doesn't mean he won't go somewhere, but it's really silly to act like Briere is just going to say OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
And once again, Briere can argue "I have a no movement clause. I'm going nowhere. You can move someone else. And don't even think about waiving me or sending me to the minors or even sending me home. You can't do that either because of my no movement clause." Face it, Briere is going nowhere.
He may move on, I think players are more interested in controlling their situation than necessarily staying in a situation where they might not be wanted, and there are many examples of players in many sports waiving NTCs when asked. However, we also have examples of players not doing so.

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06-23-2009, 12:09 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because then you're not spending money on players, but "banking" isn't the way to think about it. Please look up in the thread I pulled the direct quote from the CBA for how this is calculated. The way the salary cap works is as an average for your teams monetary output.

The number IB is pulling is what the upper limit "average" is. This is why when you trade for a player at the deadline you can take on a player with a higher "cap hit" for his contract than you have "cap space" if you just look at the numbers in an absolute sense. This is because you are taking on only a portion of the contract, which is then distributed across your cap situation as an "average." So, for example you trade for a 6M contract with a third of the season left...you are only on the hook for 2M which gets distributed.
Banking it is conceptually the same though. If your average is under the cap earlier in the season, your daily number can go over later in the season so long as the average won't be over at the end of the season. It's not technically banking, but it essentially works the same way.

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06-23-2009, 12:14 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Banking it is conceptually the same though. If your average is under the cap earlier in the season, your daily number can go over later in the season so long as the average won't be over at the end of the season. It's not technically banking, but it essentially works the same way.
That is true for most teams except the Flyers because they have LTIR sucking up whats left over EVERYDAY. The Flyers cant bank a DOLLAR until Rathje is off LTIR or they have OVER $3.5 mill cap space and no other players on LTIR.

So the Flyers cant "bank", but some teams can.

Like I said, the Flyers shuffling had more to do with the fact they keep 20 guys, and when someone was day-to-day they have to shuffle in AHL'ers with restrictions on how many times they can be called up.

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06-23-2009, 01:31 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
And once again, Briere can argue "I have a no movement clause. I'm going nowhere. You can move someone else. And don't even think about waiving me or sending me to the minors or even sending me home. You can't do that either because of my no movement clause." Face it, Briere is going nowhere.
You're correct but that's not the reason he isn't going anywhere. If there are teams that want him and he wouldn't have a problem playing for them he would be gone. I highly doubt that if he was asked to waive to go somewhere he'd like he wouldn't waive it. I just don't think there's much interest with his cap hit, contract length, and NMC. The players that won't waive, that we here about at least, are those who are nearing the end of their careers or who have spent most of their career with their current team

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06-23-2009, 02:52 PM
  #210
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If I am to be "stuck" with a players salary, Briere is in the top 30 centers I would want to be stuck with..... "Oh no! I have to be stuck with a 1st line center"

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06-23-2009, 02:53 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by bobbyacro View Post
If I am to be "stuck" with a players salary, Briere is in the top 30 centers I would want to be stuck with..... "Oh no! I have to be stuck with a 3rd line center"
haha, fixed

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06-23-2009, 03:10 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
That is true for most teams except the Flyers because they have LTIR sucking up whats left over EVERYDAY. The Flyers cant bank a DOLLAR until Rathje is off LTIR or they have OVER $3.5 mill cap space and no other players on LTIR.

So the Flyers cant "bank", but some teams can.

Like I said, the Flyers shuffling had more to do with the fact they keep 20 guys, and when someone was day-to-day they have to shuffle in AHL'ers with restrictions on how many times they can be called up.
Hmm, doesn't some team near the floor want $3.5 million to put them over the cap? I'm guessing there's something in the CBA/union rules that prevents that.

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06-23-2009, 05:09 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
That is true for most teams except the Flyers because they have LTIR sucking up whats left over EVERYDAY. The Flyers cant bank a DOLLAR until Rathje is off LTIR or they have OVER $3.5 mill cap space and no other players on LTIR.

So the Flyers cant "bank", but some teams can.

Like I said, the Flyers shuffling had more to do with the fact they keep 20 guys, and when someone was day-to-day they have to shuffle in AHL'ers with restrictions on how many times they can be called up.
I know, I wasn't talking about the Flyers, just explaining how it worked in general. LTIR throws a later kink into it, but I was just explaining how the daily cap was calculated.

As for when the Flyers were doing the shuffling, my memory is fuzzy, but what you're saying makes no sense. If there are restrictions on the number of times a guy can go up and down (something I don't think is true, but whatever), they would have just left the guy on the roster rather than tinkering constantly.

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06-23-2009, 11:20 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
Hmm, doesn't some team near the floor want $3.5 million to put them over the cap? I'm guessing there's something in the CBA/union rules that prevents that.
You see, you don't get it. Insurance only covers LTIR salary if it puts us over the cap. If a team is at the cap floor and picks up Rathje, then they pay his salary in full. It saves them no money AND they get NOTHING for that $3.5.

I know you were probably joking though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I know, I wasn't talking about the Flyers, just explaining how it worked in general. LTIR throws a later kink into it, but I was just explaining how the daily cap was calculated.

As for when the Flyers were doing the shuffling, my memory is fuzzy, but what you're saying makes no sense. If there are restrictions on the number of times a guy can go up and down (something I don't think is true, but whatever), they would have just left the guy on the roster rather than tinkering constantly.
Waiver rules regarding both one way and two-way contracts explained.

Even two-way contract players might have to go on waivers if they meet certain conditions.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/index....ained-waivers/

Now, the Flyers roster shuffle also takes into account the Phantoms schedule.

IDK the exact reason for why they did what they did, I can only guess, but if you cited specific examples, then maybe I can get a better answer for you.

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06-24-2009, 01:51 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Actually, this is incorrect, and it plays into being over the daily limit at the end of the season if you have been under the cap for extended periods of time. If you have cap space at the beginning of the season, you CAN go over the cap slightly at the end of the season. However, you have to save the money before you can spend it, rather then go over the daily limit at the beginning of the season, which you CAN NOT do.
Where are you getting that from? It's certainly not in the CBA, and I can't imagine what else would be a legitimate source.

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06-24-2009, 07:21 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Where are you getting that from? It's certainly not in the CBA, and I can't imagine what else would be a legitimate source.
Please don't tell the Rev. about this thread, some serious risk of stroke damage....

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06-24-2009, 09:46 AM
  #217
IrishSniper87
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Where are you getting that from? It's certainly not in the CBA, and I can't imagine what else would be a legitimate source.
It certainly IS in the CBA. Have you ever looked?

Illustration using a FA signing mid-season from the CBA itself (pg 231 of 472 of the CBA in PDF form)-

"Illustration: Assume the Upper Limit is $40 million and a Club has an
Averaged Club Salary of $39 million (and Payroll Room of $1
million). At the halfway point of the season, the Club may acquire a
one-year SPC with a face value of $2 million (i.e., the Player Salary
and Bonuses to be earned by the Player from the date such SPC is
acquired through the end of that season would be $1 million, which
fits within the Club's Payroll Room).

(B) In order for a Club to acquire a multi-year SPC after the
commencement of a season (i.e., that expires at the
conclusion of a future League Year), the Club must have
Payroll Room equal to or in excess of the Averaged
Amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses for the remainder
of such season. If, however, the Averaged Amount of the
SPC exceeds the Club's Payroll Room for the then-current
League Year, the Club may still acquire such SPC,
provided that it has Tagged Payroll Room. The Tagging
Rule referred to in paragraph (e)(iv)(C) above will
thereafter apply."

To understand this, I will use MATH.

Say the cap is $40million and the season is 10 days long (for math purposes). The daily limit is $4 million.

This illustration points to a situation where the team is spending $3.9 mill a day.

Halfway thru the season, the club signs a guy on a 1 year deal for $2 mill. It is only prorated in that he will only be on the cap for 5 days, BUT his daily hit DOES NOT CHANGE. His daily hit is $0.2 million.

That means, the club spends $3.9 a day for the first half the season, and THEN it spends $4.1 a day the second half of the season. Notice however, that it still does NOT exceed the cap, because it saved room at the beginning of the season and used the saved room to exceed the daily limit in the second half of the season.

So there you go. Right from the CBA itself.

However, the Flyers in this situation can NOT make this signing, because the LTIR we carry forces us to the daily limit EVERYDAY and that means we can't exceed the daily limit at the end of the season.

Do you guys finally understand this now?

Also, you can not exceed the daily limit unless you have sufficient room saved up, because the cap is calculated daily, and everyday the CBA assumes your current roster will be in place the rest of the season. (Meaning you cant bring Briere back without moving the players in a fashion where you could keep the same team all season, even if for only 1 day.)

Meaning if you save 100,000 a day for half a year, you can only spend 100,000 over the daily limit a day the second half, you cant spend 150,000 over on one random day because you promise the NHL you will spend only 50,000 over the daily limit some other day.

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06-24-2009, 10:03 AM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
You see, you don't get it. Insurance only covers LTIR salary if it puts us over the cap. If a team is at the cap floor and picks up Rathje, then they pay his salary in full. It saves them no money AND they get NOTHING for that $3.5.
Exactly. If their a couple million under the floor and don't want to overpay some useless veteran that would then expect to be on the team and push a low-cost young player out of the line-up, and also drive up future veteran player contracts for teams that are acually competitive, they could just take Rathje.

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06-24-2009, 10:09 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
Exactly. If their a couple million under the floor and don't want to overpay some useless veteran that would then expect to be on the team and push a low-cost young player out of the line-up, and also drive up future veteran player contracts for teams that are acually competitive, they could just take Rathje.

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06-24-2009, 10:25 AM
  #220
Jester
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
However, the Flyers in this situation can NOT make this signing, because the LTIR we carry forces us to the daily limit EVERYDAY and that means we can't exceed the daily limit at the end of the season.

Do you guys finally understand this now?
But you can...that's the VERY POINT of LTIR, it allows you to exceed the limit by the value of the contract money that is placed on LTIR. It isn't that you're not exceeding the daily limit, it's that you're allowed to exceed the daily limit every day. That money is never, ever getting put out as active money. If Rathje were to come back, then his contract becomes a problem...but for the entirety of the season, you can go over the daily average by the value of his contract.

Just to prove how silly this point is...last year we spent WELL over the daily limit every single day of the season. We had 7M in cap space on LTIR from the first day of the season and ADDED salary over the course of the season in Carle and Alberts. If what you are saying is true, then we would not have been able to trade for Alberts or Carle.

In other news.

Eklund is reporting that Holmgren is willing to trade for Bouwmeester and then figure out the cap problem after the fact...which is exactly what I don't want him to do, and means we'll get bent over and screwed in any deals that we make. So, I'm now convinced that's how this is going to go down.

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06-24-2009, 10:29 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Can money buy them longtime friends?

No...I like it here. It's really THAT simple. Doesn't mean he won't go somewhere, but it's really silly to act like Briere is just going to say OK.
Brieres family lived here for less then 2 years. What long time friends? Biron is leaving.

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06-24-2009, 10:30 AM
  #222
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Brieres family lived here for less then 2 years. What long time friends? Biron is leaving.
The kids dude. The kids. 2 years is a long time when you're 6.

Something adults tend to forget.

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06-24-2009, 10:34 AM
  #223
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The kids dude. The kids. 2 years is a long time when you're 6.

Something adults tend to forget.
Ohh kids? 6 year old kids with life time friends??

Well, let Homer talk to the kids too and see what they want do. Make them an offer they can't refuse or something.

Come on Jester, do not be silly.

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06-24-2009, 10:46 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Waiver rules regarding both one way and two-way contracts explained.

Even two-way contract players might have to go on waivers if they meet certain conditions.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/index....ained-waivers/

Now, the Flyers roster shuffle also takes into account the Phantoms schedule.

IDK the exact reason for why they did what they did, I can only guess, but if you cited specific examples, then maybe I can get a better answer for you.
There's nothing in there about times being sent up and down. There's a limit on number of games played, but that doesn't change if you're only getting sent down for practice days. I don't have specific examples, I'm just going off of memory.

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06-24-2009, 10:51 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
In other news.

Eklund is reporting that Holmgren is willing to trade for Bouwmeester and then figure out the cap problem after the fact...which is exactly what I don't want him to do, and means we'll get bent over and screwed in any deals that we make. So, I'm now convinced that's how this is going to go down.

Yeah, I just saw that. That would be retarded. If we couldn't move someone, what would we do? We'd have to demolish our team to free cap space.

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