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Carcillo/Talbot - Turning point of Game 6 or scapegoat? (from Kings rumor thread)

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Old
06-21-2009, 07:39 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyersguru View Post
The team was worried about getting the game over with so they could go to happy hour. You don't lay your guard down because you won a fight.

The Flyers went downhill when Biron let in soft goals. That is where the discussion should start, not the Carcillo fight. Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't know the game besides what Eddie O. tells you.
Eddie O won a Stanley Cup as a player, and played for a long time. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about. If the announcer comes out in that fashion (he surely made himself clear about what was happening), surely the players should have the foresight on what was going on as well.

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Old
06-21-2009, 08:46 PM
  #177
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good Lord, I leave for awhile and this thing is still being beaten to death?

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Old
06-22-2009, 06:16 AM
  #178
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IMO Carcillo should not have fought as a matter of principle, but for him I think there's extenuating circumstance. I don't have the Youtube link, but I remember clearly that we saw images afterwards where Carcillo looked to his bench for a 'go' and received it in the "yeah, fight him!" in ample measure.
If you're hired as a goon and a guy you know you'll whip asks you to dance at a time when you're 3-0 up and the crowd is high as ****.... when your teammates who you're otherwise supposed to be standing up for are urging you on.... its hard to blame Carcillo for anything, IMO.

Saying this as someone who doesn't like him, really didn't understand why you took him on, and said so here at the time.

As to whether it fired up the Pens... well... that or Malkin just had a whiff of the old Red Bull because he was flying on that next shift. More than the fight, the goal that came from that shift was the momentum changer, I think.

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06-22-2009, 07:28 AM
  #179
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I think we should make this thread unmoderated...

Take the gloves off, so to speak.

(pardon the pun)




Oh, and I'm just kidding. Behave yourselves!

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Old
06-22-2009, 08:14 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I think we should make this thread unmoderated...

Take the gloves off, so to speak.


(pardon the pun)




Oh, and I'm just kidding. Behave yourselves!
I think you should do the complete opposite, moderate it and close it.

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Old
06-22-2009, 09:59 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
I know this for a fact if the Flyers were down 3-0 and Carcillo gets into that fight, the Flyers rally to win he is hailed on this board as the savior of the game and maybe the series. If that is indeed true you cant have it both ways.
You absolutely can, and here's why. Carcillo would be given credit there as he should, but it wouldn't be solely Talbot's fault if roles were reversed. That is the difference. No question Talbot deserves credit for attempting to spark his team, but Carcillo doesn't deserve the majority of the blame for the ultimate outcome of the game.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Talbot said after the fact that he specifically went out there to fight...and fight a guy he knew he was going to lose badly to in order to fire his team up.
That's ridiculous. I'm not saying you're lying, but going out there to get beat up certainly should not motivate the Pens anymore than Carcillo winning should motivate Philly. It'd be like saying Timonen let Kunitz crush him into next week in the hopes that it would fire Philly up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Again, we're not saying "it's all his fault." He made the snowball, everyone else rolled it down the hill.
You may not be saying it's ALL his fault, but you are saying it's largely his fault, and that just isn't fair. He played a minor role in that collapse.

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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Bottom line is you don't change when you are in control... The Pens were frustrated and a beaten team... Carcillo should have laughed in his face and pointed to the scoreboard as he skated away.
I agree. That is exactly what Carcillo should've done. Something to the effect of I don't feel like beating you up right now, and then point his stick up at the scoreboard. That would've been awesome.

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Old
06-22-2009, 10:49 PM
  #182
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When did this fanbase collectively lose its balls?

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Old
06-23-2009, 12:04 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
That's ridiculous. I'm not saying you're lying, but going out there to get beat up certainly should not motivate the Pens anymore than Carcillo winning should motivate Philly.
Carcillo was a pens prospect and on the same team as Talbot in WBS for the baby Pens, Talbot knew EXACTLY who he was fighting and he knew he was going to probably lose badly. Talbot is not a fighter.

And why is that proposition ridiculous. You're on the road, you're losing 3-0...you've just been scored on, you're probably feeling like crap. Then, all the sudden, one of your teammates goes out there and picks a fight with one of the better fighters in the league and the statement could not be clearer: "we are still in this game, we are still going to compete, and we can still win..."

That's what Talbot was doing. Did it work? Absolutely debatable.

As to the motivational value at that moment...we're up 3-0 at home with the crowd going berzerk. Our team could not have been more jacked at that moment...the Pens are another story, therefore they have a ton more to gain from that moment.

Quote:
It'd be like saying Timonen let Kunitz crush him into next week in the hopes that it would fire Philly up.
Ugh...if you're going to make comparisons...at least find comparable things. These two aren't.

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Old
06-23-2009, 12:39 AM
  #184
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can friday and july 1st get here any sooner?

good God almighty.

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06-23-2009, 05:38 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As to the motivational value at that moment...we're up 3-0 at home with the crowd going berzerk. Our team could not have been more jacked at that moment...the Pens are another story, therefore they have a ton more to gain from that moment.
I think the fight could've not only given the Flyers even more of an edge, but it could've completely demoralized the Pens, essentially ending the game. Unfortunately it didn't turn out that way. I do agree that the Pens clearly have more to gain from a fight there than the Flyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ugh...if you're going to make comparisons...at least find comparable things. These two aren't.
I disagree. Saying Talbot going out there knowing he was gonna get beat up "to spark his team" is along the same lines as a player taking a huge hit to fire up his team. If I'm on the Pens bench and Carcillo pounds Talbot, it may motivate me because I'm pissed our guy just got his ass handed to him. Just as I would be if my teammate got crushed.

Again, I credit Talbot for attempting to swing momentum there, and taking on a guy he knew was tougher than him, but my main point in this whole discussion is while Talbot deserves praise, Carcillo doesn't deserve the majority of the blame.

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Old
06-23-2009, 06:42 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
I think you should do the complete opposite, moderate it and close it.
If it helps keep other threads clean of the same old, same old...then this thread will and should remain open. If it's not your cup of tea, you can always ignore the thread.

I don't think it was the turning point, but that's me. Nor do I think those claiming it to be the turning point are wrong. Personally I think the 1st goal was the turning point. Hindsight, it's easy to look back and find a particular instance where one can point their finger to as the turning point. Fact of the matter is, nobody in game 6 did anything individually where they should be called out. They collectively lost as a team, IMO.


This thread makes me think of this...


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Old
06-23-2009, 11:20 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL View Post
I disagree. Saying Talbot going out there knowing he was gonna get beat up "to spark his team" is along the same lines as a player taking a huge hit to fire up his team. If I'm on the Pens bench and Carcillo pounds Talbot, it may motivate me because I'm pissed our guy just got his ass handed to him. Just as I would be if my teammate got crushed.
Sure, I guess, if that had been what happened. But Timonen clearly wasn't "looking to get hit." Talbot went out there and consciously instigated a fight to fire his team up...these are apples and oranges.

How do you arrange for a big hit to happen?

Quote:
Again, I credit Talbot for attempting to swing momentum there, and taking on a guy he knew was tougher than him, but my main point in this whole discussion is while Talbot deserves praise, Carcillo doesn't deserve the majority of the blame.
If Talbot deserves praise for what he did, then what Carcillo did (allowing Talbot to earn praise) was a negative for the Flyers. Do I think it's the reason we gave up a 3-0 lead? No, I think that's because of the problems with this team that I've spent to years *****ing about. However, Carcillo deserves to be criticized for making an obviously poor decision.

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Old
06-23-2009, 11:54 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by stafuccijr View Post
get the **** outta here. That fight had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.
Thank you. Are people honestly blaming Carcillo fighting as to a reason that the Flyers blew a three goal lead? That's ****ing ridiculous. Carcillo's fight was just one insignificant piece to a pathetic collapse.

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Old
06-23-2009, 11:57 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
can friday and july 1st get here any sooner?

good God almighty.

Tell me about it, I have a co-worker who dresses in his Penguins garb to rub it in my face. I need the 09-10 season asap.

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06-23-2009, 12:05 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 46zone View Post
Thank you. Are people honestly blaming Carcillo fighting as to a reason that the Flyers blew a three goal lead? That's ****ing ridiculous. Carcillo's fight was just one insignificant piece to a pathetic collapse.
yup, if carcillo winning a fight is what gave the Pens a boost to come back from 3-0 then they didnt deserve to win anyway and carcillo was doing them a favor and saving them from being embarrassed in game 7.

If we would have won 6-0 would we all be sitting here saying "well we sure did piss them off by running up the score, we shouldnt have done thatm now they are going to try hard in game 7".

Its a complete joke how somehow carcillo and stevens get blamed for everything that goes wrong with this team. Its gotten so bad that carcillo has surpassed Jones on the hate meter.

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06-23-2009, 12:10 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by 46zone View Post
Tell me about it, I have a co-worker who dresses in his Penguins garb to rub it in my face. I need the 09-10 season asap.
the comment I made had nothing to do with who won the Cup.
I was talking about this thread.

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06-23-2009, 12:17 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
yup, if carcillo winning a fight is what gave the Pens a boost to come back from 3-0 then they didnt deserve to win anyway and carcillo was doing them a favor and saving them from being embarrassed in game 7.

If we would have won 6-0 would we all be sitting here saying "well we sure did piss them off by running up the score, we shouldnt have done thatm now they are going to try hard in game 7".

Its a complete joke how somehow carcillo and stevens get blamed for everything that goes wrong with this team. Its gotten so bad that carcillo has surpassed Jones on the hate meter.
Yes, actually.

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06-23-2009, 12:30 PM
  #193
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Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocked over the lantern and that's what everyone remembers. But it's not what caused the whole dang city to burn.

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06-23-2009, 04:38 PM
  #194
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Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocked over the lantern and that's what everyone remembers. But it's not what caused the whole dang city to burn.


Nice, obscure reference, JXC.

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06-23-2009, 05:29 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Its gotten so bad that carcillo has surpassed Jones on the hate meter.
Lets not go that far!

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Old
06-23-2009, 05:32 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
When did this fanbase collectively lose its balls?
I'd say the late 90s

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06-23-2009, 06:53 PM
  #197
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When did this fanbase collectively lose its balls?
What year did HFBoards start up?

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Old
06-23-2009, 07:12 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If Talbot deserves praise for what he did, then what Carcillo did (allowing Talbot to earn praise) was a negative for the Flyers. Do I think it's the reason we gave up a 3-0 lead? No, I think that's because of the problems with this team that I've spent to years *****ing about. However, Carcillo deserves to be criticized for making an obviously poor decision.
I think we're just disagreeing on the degree to which Carcillo is to blame. I'm not saying Carcillo made the wisest decision there. I've said before that I like the idea of stepping on their throat when they're down, and if Talbot wants to get beat up I like the mentality of doing just that, but I also understand that when you're up against what at that point was a listless team, the smarter play is to let the sleeping dog lie so to speak.

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06-23-2009, 08:04 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocked over the lantern and that's what everyone remembers. But it's not what caused the whole dang city to burn.
No, actually the Chicago fire fighters backed off and were too passive... The fire was better than the people of the city as a whole, and it was inevitable that the fire would eventually totally engulf the city and the fire chief was negligent in the way he utilized his charges.

The cow kicked the lantern's ass and that only inspired the rest of the flames to push on and take city... However, it has been reported that Bill Wirtz was seen fiddling in a sky-box as Mrs O'Leary watched, neglecting her cow.

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06-24-2009, 09:30 AM
  #200
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If one of your players losing a fight while you are 3-0 up at home in the playoffs results in a complete collapse, there are much bigger problems to be concerned with than that one player.

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