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Old
06-24-2009, 04:27 PM
  #251
Murphy7
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So, is J-Bo (or J-Bow or Jay-Bo) a Flyer yet?

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06-24-2009, 04:35 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Yes, essentially, we can't BANK space. So pro-rated contracts and deadline deals are more difficult for us.

Where one team might have extra space left over, LTIR prevents us from "banking" in order to pay pro-rated contracts.
You know, I think it would have been a lot easier to convince people if you had just started with this post.

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06-24-2009, 06:18 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I responded to every post claiming I'm wrong.

As long as Rathje is LTIR, he forces us over the daily limit, I know. However, he prevents us from having extra room halfway thru the season.

Therefore, even if the rest of the salaries only total $49 out of $50 million, guess where that extra $1 mill goes if we dont use it on someone else? It goes to Rathje.

This isnt a HUGE deal because we are allowed to bring people in and use that $1 mill. However, if we don't bring people in, we lose that money to him, this becomes an issue if you want to try to sign a pro-rated skater to bolster the offense for a playoff run.

This is were it gets complicated, and where most people stop reading. However, you guys still argue with me. I have had Irish Blues himself explain this to me, and I have reviewed the CBA myself.

In the hypothetical situation I proposed, an NHL CLUB A can be $1 mill under the cap for half of the season. Then, the second half of the season, they can sign FA PLAYER to a 1 year $2 mill dollar deal. However, guess what, he only counts against the cap for 1/2 of the season, so therefore the club really only pays him $1 mill dollars.

Simple concept right? Now, the way the cap is calculated is on a daily basis. So

(Salary Cap)/(Days in a season) = Daily Limit

For the sake of Math, we will say there are 100 days in a season (187 really, but that makes the numbers harder). I will also make the cap $50 million for the sake of Math.

$50 million/100 days = $500,000 per day

All your player salaries must tally less then or equal to $500,000 per day.

If your estimated cap figure is $49 million based on your team, and you have NO players on LTIR, then you are effectively spending $490,000 per day. That is a savings of $10,000 per day under the cap.

On the 51st day of the 100 day season, you sign FA PLAYER to a 1 year $2mill deal, then FA Player is added to the cap. Let's say he gets a spot of a ROOKIE, but ROOKIE is held on the roster and NOT sent to the AHL. So you are carrying 21 instead of 20 players. That's fine. ROOKIE watches from the press box.

However, FA Player has a daily salary of $20,000 ($2 mill / 100 days in a season).

When you add FA Player to the cap, the NHL CLUB A is now spending $510,000 a day. Now, this is over the daily limit, but if no moves are made, this still projects to $50 mill a season.

So, NHL CLUB A has only spent $1 million on FA PLAYER.

NOW, the THE FLYERS have a problem. They project to spend $49 million in a season NOT COUNTING RATHJE ON LTIR.

So the first half of the season THE FLYERS are playing with 20 guys.

$490,000 a day on 20 players. That is $10,000 less then the daily limit.

However, you need to add LTIR to the daily limit.

Now the Flyers are paying Rathje $10,000 cap dollars A DAY. The remaining $25,000 a day he is owed puts us over the daily limit, but is covered by insurance per the CBA.

Technically the Flyers are at $525,000 a day.

Halfway through the season, the Flyers decide they want sign SOME VET FA.

Now, the Flyers are only allowed to replace $10,000 a day. A 1 year $2 million dollar deal = $20,000 a day.

The Flyers can not sign SOME VET FA unless he agrees to take 1 year $1 million. That is the best they can do, because they were paying money to RATHJE that NHL CLUB A was essentially "banking" (and I use the term loosely).


See? Now do you get it? Same cap numbers, same FA contracts, but the Flyers have less wiggle room at the end of the season.

If you still think my logic or math is flawed, then I dont know how to explain it any simpler.

I also want to note I made these numbers up to show you the concepts. Obviously if you sign a FA closer to the deadline, and it's actually 3/4 into the season, the first NHL club could have "banked" more cash and paid a slightly higher contract to FA PLAYER and still be under the cap.
Apologies to everyone for quoting such a long post.

Thanks, Irish; your example is much clearer than the basic model I was using. Here's a great summation that shows Rathje is an annoyance to the Flyers even though he's on LTIR.

I left this thread confused a couple days ago. Thanks, Jester. I got myself too caught up in the 'average' salary cap hit conversation. As long as Irish's post is correct, I feel better about my basic understanding of the cap implications of LTIR even if I was incorrect about a couple details.

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06-24-2009, 08:08 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Apologies to everyone for quoting such a long post.

Thanks, Irish; your example is much clearer than the basic model I was using. Here's a great summation that shows Rathje is an annoyance to the Flyers even though he's on LTIR.

I left this thread confused a couple days ago. Thanks, Jester. I got myself too caught up in the 'average' salary cap hit conversation. As long as Irish's post is correct, I feel better about my basic understanding of the cap implications of LTIR even if I was incorrect about a couple details.
I wish I had the patience to have just made that post 2 days ago. Haha, it would have saved pages of arguments.

I realize the LTIR thing isn't too bad. Overall, we end up spending to the cap anyway, because if we dont, we lost it anyway.

Briere went down last year when we had 7 mill + on LTIR. So guess what, you bet your ass we replaced the salary (a la Carle) because otherwise, we were just wasting that cap space.

That is why Homer does what he does. Could he do a better job? Sure. But here are the mechanics of how a few things worked last year and this year.

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Old
06-24-2009, 08:23 PM
  #255
flyersjamminontheone
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**** Rathje ****ing retire already! Is it posible for the flyers org to say to him " alright stinky nuts, you're not playing here anymore. No doctor will clear you to play so take this little severence package and leave!" There is a difference between trying to make a comeback and hamstringing your team. Primeau did it hatch did it (was it early or when his contract was done?) Hey does anybody remember turner stevenson? the only good thing that waste did was score against the devils after the lockout little else.

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06-24-2009, 09:00 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I wish I had the patience to have just made that post 2 days ago. Haha, it would have saved pages of arguments.

I realize the LTIR thing isn't too bad. Overall, we end up spending to the cap anyway, because if we dont, we lost it anyway.

Briere went down last year when we had 7 mill + on LTIR. So guess what, you bet your ass we replaced the salary (a la Carle) because otherwise, we were just wasting that cap space.

That is why Homer does what he does. Could he do a better job? Sure. But here are the mechanics of how a few things worked last year and this year.
The NHL should adopt temporary contracts as the NBA does or did, IIRC... Being able to replace a player with a short term contract (weeks) should be able to replace injured players and not pass up the Cap exclusion... Granted, the player(s) would be of a lesser level, but that would preclude waiver costs/losses as well a players being forced to be on waivers upon being returned to the AHL. There could be an entire group of unsigned mercenaries -- err -- players who could go unsigned but make big bucks on short-term contract throughout the season.


... ORRRRR... The NHL could allow AHL replacement players who would come up when a player is injured, and not be bound by waiver rules.

When I replace Bettman, I will straighten out the NHL and all it's Cap woes.

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06-24-2009, 09:05 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersjamminontheone View Post
**** Rathje ****ing retire already! Is it posible for the flyers org to say to him " alright stinky nuts, you're not playing here anymore. No doctor will clear you to play so take this little severence package and leave!" There is a difference between trying to make a comeback and hamstringing your team. Primeau did it hatch did it (was it early or when his contract was done?) Hey does anybody remember turner stevenson? the only good thing that waste did was score against the devils after the lockout little else.
Hatch's contract ran out. He was technically a UFA when he retired.

Rathje has been sitting pretty collecting mad money for nothing.

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06-24-2009, 09:09 PM
  #258
flyersjamminontheone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Hatch's contract ran out. He was technically a UFA when he retired.

Rathje has been sitting pretty collecting mad money for nothing.
i hear that, but wouldn't it be dirty pool knowing that you'd never play again and string along your old team?

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06-24-2009, 09:13 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Hatch's contract ran out. He was technically a UFA when he retired.

Rathje has been sitting pretty collecting mad money for nothing.
Not to be petty, but I believe he retired from the Flyers' roster... He would have been a UFA on 7/1 with the other potential UFAs. That is, unless the rules are different with players on LTIR.

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06-24-2009, 09:13 PM
  #260
IrishSniper87
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Originally Posted by flyersjamminontheone View Post
i hear that, but wouldn't it be dirty pool knowing that you'd never play again and string along your old team?
It's not so much string your old team as it is making MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to do NOTHING.

Seriously, who would pass that up? Especially since Rathje was injured AT WORK and will forever have back problems.

He is also only 35 or something. To be so banged up at 35 sucks.

However, I still agree it sucks for the fans since he is hurting the cap a bit.

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06-24-2009, 09:15 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Not to be petty, but I believe he retired from the Flyers' roster... He would have been a UFA on 7/1 with the other potential UFAs. That is, unless the rules are different with players on LTIR.
No, you are correct. He retired from the roster to accept a position with the team.

He was an impending UFA.

Petty? A bit. haha

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06-24-2009, 09:15 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
It certainly IS in the CBA. Have you ever looked?

Illustration using a FA signing mid-season from the CBA itself (pg 231 of 472 of the CBA in PDF form)-

"Illustration: Assume the Upper Limit is $40 million and a Club has an
Averaged Club Salary of $39 million (and Payroll Room of $1
million). At the halfway point of the season, the Club may acquire a
one-year SPC with a face value of $2 million (i.e., the Player Salary
and Bonuses to be earned by the Player from the date such SPC is
acquired through the end of that season would be $1 million, which
fits within the Club's Payroll Room).

(B) In order for a Club to acquire a multi-year SPC after the
commencement of a season (i.e., that expires at the
conclusion of a future League Year), the Club must have
Payroll Room equal to or in excess of the Averaged
Amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses for the remainder
of such season. If, however, the Averaged Amount of the
SPC exceeds the Club's Payroll Room for the then-current
League Year, the Club may still acquire such SPC,
provided that it has Tagged Payroll Room. The Tagging
Rule referred to in paragraph (e)(iv)(C) above will
thereafter apply."

To understand this, I will use MATH.

Say the cap is $40million and the season is 10 days long (for math purposes). The daily limit is $4 million.

This illustration points to a situation where the team is spending $3.9 mill a day.

Halfway thru the season, the club signs a guy on a 1 year deal for $2 mill. It is only prorated in that he will only be on the cap for 5 days, BUT his daily hit DOES NOT CHANGE. His daily hit is $0.2 million.

That means, the club spends $3.9 a day for the first half the season, and THEN it spends $4.1 a day the second half of the season. Notice however, that it still does NOT exceed the cap, because it saved room at the beginning of the season and used the saved room to exceed the daily limit in the second half of the season.

So there you go. Right from the CBA itself.

However, the Flyers in this situation can NOT make this signing, because the LTIR we carry forces us to the daily limit EVERYDAY and that means we can't exceed the daily limit at the end of the season.

Do you guys finally understand this now?

Also, you can not exceed the daily limit unless you have sufficient room saved up, because the cap is calculated daily, and everyday the CBA assumes your current roster will be in place the rest of the season. (Meaning you cant bring Briere back without moving the players in a fashion where you could keep the same team all season, even if for only 1 day.)

Meaning if you save 100,000 a day for half a year, you can only spend 100,000 over the daily limit a day the second half, you cant spend 150,000 over on one random day because you promise the NHL you will spend only 50,000 over the daily limit some other day.
That's not what that says. The tagging rule has to do with expiring contracts not "setting aside cap space". All that essentially says is that salaries are prorated when acquiring a multiyear player contract midseason.

It says literally nothing about saving up cap space.

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Old
06-24-2009, 09:19 PM
  #263
flyersjamminontheone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
It's not so much string your old team as it is making MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to do NOTHING.

Seriously, who would pass that up? Especially since Rathje was injured AT WORK and will forever have back problems.

He is also only 35 or something. To be so banged up at 35 sucks.

However, I still agree it sucks for the fans since he is hurting the cap a bit.
wasn't it a pnched nerve in his ass? you can't wear any equip for that. He tried to have it operated on, then scar tissue grew. thats not injured on the job thats bad luck, and a sweet payday to drive truck and make millions while bending over your team and rowing them at full speed. GREED

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06-24-2009, 09:22 PM
  #264
flyersjamminontheone
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So who honestly thinks we get boumeester? not honesty hopes?

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06-25-2009, 12:33 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
No, you are correct. He retired from the roster to accept a position with the team.

He was an impending UFA.

Petty? A bit. haha

Hey,... I take 'em where and when I can get them.

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06-25-2009, 12:59 AM
  #266
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Hey,... I take 'em where and when I can get them.
THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!

yes, flawless!

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06-25-2009, 03:47 AM
  #267
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So who honestly thinks we get boumeester? not honesty hopes?

I would bet that we get him.

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