I wasn't on Renney case until a year and a half ago when it was very obvious the guy could not get enough out of his team and coaches walked all over him in the playoffs with his predictable style and inability to change his style over a course of a game.
How about we give Torts a full season at the very least?
Were the Rangers that good that you expected something last season?
The FACT is that Torts stupidity and selfish actions probably cost this team a playoff spot. He also now is coming up with this excuse that the team wasn't in shape. Awesome yet the true test is how man injuries the team suffer under Renney last year? Not many because they were conditioned.
Torts gets no slack from me nor should he from anybody. If he is so great the results better show it. No excuses... Posted via Mobile Device
Were the Rangers that good that you expected something last season?
The FACT is that Torts stupidity and selfish actions probably cost this team a playoff spot. He also now is coming up with this excuse that the team wasn't in shape. Awesome yet the true test is how man injuries the team suffer under Renney last year? Not many because they were conditioned.
Torts gets no slack from me nor should he from anybody. If he is so great the results better show it. No excuses... Posted via Mobile Device
I thought that was painfully obvious though considering by the 3rd period the team had nothing left under Torts and played by far the worst in the 3rd periods.
Its not just an excuse, its the truth. And he said he's going to correct that hopefully.
Tortorella also had a stacked team, Renney never has. And Tortorella's players quit on him, thus the last place finish at his last job.
You're right, for most coaches, having Johan Holmqvist as your goalie and Dan Boyle (your only half decent defenseman) injured for more than half the season will really take you places.
meaningless unless those are rangers skating behind him in that picture..
.. regardless its simply time to move on from the renney torto fights. I have my opinions as everyone else has theirs. renneys gone now torts is here..lets give him a full season and see what happens..
__________________ "Back in the very early 2000s, Rangers fans could only dream about watching a team that competed this hard, sacrificed this much, and made the fans actually feel proud to be Rangers fan" -Dantes19
meaningless unless those are rangers skating behind him in that picture..
.. regardless its simply time to move on from the renney torto fights. I have my opinions as everyone else has theirs. renneys gone now torts is here..lets give him a full season and see what happens..
agreed. torts deserves at least 1 full season, if not more.
Yes because Antropov and Morris came here. That's Tortorella's fault.
Did I say it was Tortorella's fault. Amazing how you provide page-length posts without making a single salient point. What you haven't done is shown how the additions of Avery, Morris and Antropov weren't the major reasons the team's play improved after the deadline.
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You actually like moves that Sather made? Which one was your favorate? Antropov or Morris?
I've never hesitated to give credit to Sather when it was warranted, and I've provided you with the evidence before. Not surprisingly, the only way you can support your arguments is by ignoring what people say and putting words in their mouth. Trading three essentially worthless players who had value only to one man, Maloney, for obvious reasons, for Morris wasn't exactly a brilliant move. A good move, sure, but not one that demanded any significant amount of managerial acumen. Wasting a second round draft pick just so you could lose in the first round was a terrible move.
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Avery came late when the Rangers weren't playing well under Renney as well.
And when he did, under Renney, the Rangers got to the second round. Did we get that far last year? No.
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So do you actually think Antropov and Morris would have made that much of a difference. The team had nothing. They were flat.
Considering the team's biggest weakness was offense, and Antropov had more points than anyone on the team, and Morris was the best offensive defenseman the team had, yes, I think they made all the difference in the world. If Tortorella had come aboard and the two of them hadn't joined him, there is no chance in hell they would have made the playoffs. Which would have been better for the team, anyway.
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Tortorella didn't have Jagr and Straka coming off a lockout. So what.
Renney had them last season? No, he didn't did he?
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I expected them to do like you wanted Sting. Lose, so we can get top ten picks. "The only proven method."
Remind me, how many top ten picks did the Stanley Cup champs have on their roster? I'll tell you what I expected from you: for you to avoid answering the question and instead retorting with a poorly thought out, senseless response. You never fail to disappoint. I'll again ask, what did you expect Renney to do? What would you have done in his place? I can't wait to see how you avoid answering the question this time.
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At least in Washington, their coach had the balls to tell Jagr how he was going to play. Jagr cried. End of story.
Actually, the end of the story was their team sucking for several years, getting a couple of top five picks, and becoming a much better team. Shocking.
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Tortorella made Lecavalier and Richards who they were. The team appeared stacked because Tortorella is a terrific coach.
So the first pick in the draft, who had obviously been tossed into the NHL and a boatlaod of pressure way too early at first was made by his coach. Not the top-notch talent that made him the first overall pick. Gotcha. Dave Andreychuk, also made by Tortorella? I guess Tortorella also made Khabibulin. Cory Stillman? St. Louis?
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Hold on a sec. That was Barry Melrose's team. Not Tortorella's.
See, I almost never know what you're talking about, but I wonder if even you know what you're talking about. Barry Melrose coached the Lightning for 16 games. Some advice for debate: know what you're talking about first.
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And even if it was. Keeenan coached many team in the NHL and was fired. Does that make him a poor coach?
Mike Keenan has done a great job of coaching since he left the Rangers, hasn't he. 11 seasons, one in which he advanced past the first round of the playoffs. Great job.
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I'll say it again to you. Messier drove Renney out of Vancouver just like he drove Roger Neilson out. I'll take Messier's judgement 10 times out of 10 as opposed to yours.
Of course you would. There's nothing surprising about that. Interesting how the entire Canucks fanbase loathes Messier for his time with the team, not to mention that the plight of this franchise is inherently tied to Messier's incredibly selfish return to the team after he finished ruining the Canucks.
See, I don't hate Tortorella. In fact, I like him. I think he's a good coach. But I see no reason to give him credit for something he didn't do. You, on the other hand, assign blame to Renney for things that had nothing to do with him. The funny thing is, there are plenty of things to dislike about Renney, and yet, instead of even mentioning them, you instead choose to **** on him over the most ridiculous things imaginable.
You're right, for most coaches, having Johan Holmqvist as your goalie and Dan Boyle (your only half decent defenseman) injured for more than half the season will really take you places.
Having zero first line players and a mediocre blueline isn't exactly a recipe for success, either. Kind of hard to create a system when you have the skill and talent of a minor league team.
Tortorella is going to get the most out of our roster, plain and simple.... There's no status quo anymore where you get preference or more playing time based on your salary or your # of years in the league.... The best players get rewarded and the worst players get punished, plain and simple... It doesn't matter whether you make $7 mil a year vs. $850,000, whether you're 32 or 19.... No more sense of entitlement.... If that doesn't motivate certain individuals on this roster you know nothing will and those players need to get the boot!
I like what Torts is saying.... He knows we don't have the most skilled line-up in the league... So he's going to maximize the things we do have control over, our conditioning, our work ethic, and our battle level....
If you put a hard-working team out on the ice and compete hard on a regular basis and still fall short of expectations, the blame shifts to Sather for not giving the head coach the tools necessary to complete the job...
I used to ***** a lot last year about the way in which we would lose games (getting out worked and out hustled)..... I always said I wouldn't mind losing as long as the team played hard and that couldn't be said for many of the losses last season... I really won't mind losing as much as long as I see the effort to win the game is there.... Too many disappearing acts last season....
meaningless unless those are rangers skating behind him in that picture..
.. regardless its simply time to move on from the renney torto fights. I have my opinions as everyone else has theirs. renneys gone now torts is here..lets give him a full season and see what happens..
Maybe after they played paint ball, then they got into shape.
Maybe they did. And in that case it really wasn't the "guys can become like family and everyone gets the warm fuzzies" stuff that was the problem, was it?
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
It's also not fair to compare Babcock and Renney who will never win a Cup in this league.
I agree, which is why I didn't compare them.[/QUOTE]
Renney and Babcock both like to play paint ball in the woods.
[QUOTE=dedalus;20144385]Maybe they did. And in that case it really wasn't the "guys can become like family and everyone gets the warm fuzzies" stuff that was the problem, was it?
No but I will admit that I'm glad to say the paintball days are behind us and the team can finally move on. The past few drafts seem to have been successful ones and you gotta enjoy the fact that Sather isn't trading his picks away. Agree?
I think Tortorella deserves time and I'm willing to give it to him.
However, I do think that Renney detractors are way off base considering the talent level of the squads he had. Those who hate Renney act like we had a Red Wings esque roster and Renney was the anchor slowing us down. These teams under Renney were nothing special. And if it weren't for 7 seconds in game 5 against Buffalo (granted, I understand the personnel argument anti-Renney folks will make) this team had a great shot at being in the Conference finals that year and barring a Game 1 MELTDOWN two years ago who knows where this team would have been.
I really do believe Tom Renney is a fine coach and there is nothing to me that put John Tortorella above him. I don't care about the Stanley Cup Torts won in Tampa. That means nothing to me because I believe it has to do with the players. The rosters aren't identical for these two coaches so it's hard to compare. All we can do is look towards next year and hope Torts lets the bets players play.
I really hope Grachev and Del Zotto earn spots out of camp and this team is one that works hard and doesn't take any ****.
But my gut tells me Torts is right on the money with his comments. Comments I don't think any coach of this team save John Ferguson may have uttered and then not publicly.
It is a privilege to wear that sweater and play in MSG and too many Rangers down thru the years and up till the present have not treated it that way.
Nobody is scared of the New York Rangers. No team fears a trip to our building and that is what must change.
Tortorella is going to get the most out of our roster, plain and simple.... There's no status quo anymore where you get preference or more playing time based on your salary or your # of years in the league.... The best players get rewarded and the worst players get punished, plain and simple... It doesn't matter whether you make $7 mil a year vs. $850,000, whether you're 32 or 19.... No more sense of entitlement.... If that doesn't motivate certain individuals on this roster you know nothing will and those players need to get the boot!
You know, it's funny. When Glen Sather was hired as GM I wrote pretty much exactly the same thing: "Sather is tough. Sather is no-nonsense. Sather doesn't give a damn if he's liked by the players, and Sather isn't going to run a country club like Neil Smith did."
Didn't work out that way. Vets and guys with fat paychecks have, throughout Sather's tenure, continued to urinate on the idea of accountability in this franchise.
Believe me, I hope you're right. I hope Tortorella has the will to play hardball with these guys, and I hope Glen Sather allows him to do so.
Renney and Babcock both like to play paint ball in the woods.
Right. And since Babcock wears a championship ring, clearly the team bonding exercises aren't the problem. You indicated in your post that such exercises were Renney's problem; they weren't.
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
No but I will admit that I'm glad to say the paintball days are behind us and the team can finally move on.
Since paintball and other such "family ... warm fuzzy" exercises are pretty frequent among Cup winners, no. I can't say as I'm glad they're behind us. I think it's easy to argue by looking at the Wings and Pens that such exercises are useful, and if Tortorella isn't using them, maybe he should be.
There's no reason a franchise can't use these team bonding events AND tough coaching. They're not mutually exclusive.
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
The past few drafts seem to have been successful ones and you gotta enjoy the fact that Sather isn't trading his picks away. Agree?
Sather traded away a second rounder so he could rent Antropov for what almost everyone recognized a doomed playoff run. No. That kind of thing doesn't excite me. Am I pleased he seems to have gotten past the idea of trading 1st rounders? Yeah. Now I'd like to see him extend that and protect his picks - acquiring more in fact - in years when everyone on the planet knows his team will not be making a legitimate playoff drive.
As for the drafts, I'll wait to see what develops. Having been surprised by some "throwaway" picks that turned into NHLers, and having watched "great" drafts yield nothing, I've learned the art of patience where evaluating drafts is concerned. Frankly, I had to laugh when I saw a thread titled "Grade the draft!" go up the day after last week's draft ended.
I can't believe people are still so bitter about Renny getting canned
Howbout we just move foward and look for reasons to be optomistic about our new coach, rather than try to cut him to pieces before he's had a full season (or even half)
but then i guess we wouldn't be rangers fans if we ceased to be whiny and pesimistic at all times....
Right. And since Babcock wears a championship ring, clearly the team bonding exercises aren't the problem. You indicated in your post that such exercises were Renney's problem; they weren't.
Since paintball and other such "family ... warm fuzzy" exercises are pretty frequent among Cup winners, no. I can't say as I'm glad they're behind us. I think it's easy to argue by looking at the Wings and Pens that such exercises are useful, and if Tortorella isn't using them, maybe he should be.
There's no reason a franchise can't use these team bonding events AND tough coaching. They're not mutually exclusive.
Sather traded away a second rounder so he could rent Antropov for what almost everyone recognized a doomed playoff run. No. That kind of thing doesn't excite me. Am I pleased he seems to have gotten past the idea of trading 1st rounders? Yeah. Now I'd like to see him extend that and protect his picks - acquiring more in fact - in years when everyone on the planet knows his team will not be making a legitimate playoff drive.
As for the drafts, I'll wait to see what develops. Having been surprised by some "throwaway" picks that turned into NHLers, and having watched "great" drafts yield nothing, I've learned the art of patience where evaluating drafts is concerned. Frankly, I had to laugh when I saw a thread titled "Grade the draft!" go up the day after last week's draft ended.
Maybe Tortorella does play paintball in the woods (as does Babcock). But I can guarantee you one thing. The team will be in shape and not run out of gas in the first round of a playoff series. Renney's team was out of shape and could never get passed a first round anyway. Unacceptable. My point is that paintball may be fun and build a sense of team unity. But it's not enough. Renney's teams wore out too quickly, IMO, his defensive system was innefective. Tortorella who was not even familiar with the players got much more out of them then Renney could. Atleast he made the opposition feel pressured even without a "Crosby" in the lineup. I felt the team gave up on Tom Renney not because of paintball. But it was obvious in the beginning of February that although the team worked hard, they did not want to play "layed back hockey" and were mentally exausted going through motions of Renney's game (especially when losing was the end result). Whether you or Renney feel the team does not have enough scoring, losing key game after key game, playing 1-2-2 was apparently not the way to go either. Tom Renney did make it evident that his team could not score after a game in Calgary. "He said the team must win 1-0 or 2-1 games and play to the system in order to win." The team kept on losing. Maybe Tom Renney was wrong after all. I'd like to see at least a full season of the Rangers playing under Tortorella.
Maybe some people on the planet do think the team will make a legitimate playoff drive. IMO, most likely not. But in a few years (possibly less) I think they will. And what I think is exciting about that possiblility is that the team may not have to be built with a core group of top 5 draft picks.
And I'm glad you see that holding on to a second round pick is very valuable. In no way does it implicate that drafting 1-10 overall is the only proven method of building a winner. Hopefully the Rangers will wait for some young players to develop at their own pace. Not only that. But hopefully they draft a lot of players and look for more draft picks.
But do you think that Antropov and Morris are the reasons why this team turned it around or do you think it had something to do with a change in system by the head coach?
Maybe Tortorella does play paintball in the woods (as does Babcock). But I can guarantee you one thing. The team will be in shape and not run out of gas in the first round of a playoff series. Renney's team was out of shape and could never get passed a first round anyway.
Meh. We'll see about Tortorella. As for Renney, his teams got past the first round in two successive years. Did he suddenly forget how to condition a team?
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
Tom Renney did make it evident that his team could not score after a game in Calgary. "He said the team must win 1-0 or 2-1 games and play to the system in order to win." The team kept on losing. Maybe Tom Renney was wrong after all.
The team's scoring woes continued under Tortorella. That indicates to me that Renney was right, not wrong.
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
I'd like to see at least a full season of the Rangers playing under Tortorella.
Of course. I don't think anyone in his right mind wants another coaching change before we see what we have.
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
Maybe some people on the planet do think the team will make a legitimate playoff drive.
Damn well near every Joe Average fan knew this team wasn't going far, and they were correct. If Sather was among the miniscule who couldn't see what was so obvious to Joe Sixpack, he has no business running this franchise. And if he could see it, he had no business trading a second rounder for a potential rental with a shaky reputation.
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
hopefully they ... look for more draft picks.
Well that would certainly be nice, but that would involve Sather changing his MO. I've not seen anything from him to convince me that he'll be looking to acquire picks rather than trade them.
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t
But do you think that Antropov and Morris are the reasons why this team turned it around or do you think it had something to do with a change in system by the head coach?
Interesting phrasing. Antropov and Morris are offered as "the reason," an absolute. Tortorella is offered as "something to do with," a more nuanced and thus more even-handed phrase. One might think you were fishing for the second answer.
In any case, I think Tortorella and the various acquisitions ALL had "something to do with" the end of the season, just as they ALL had "something to do with" the first round loss to Washington. The team lacked offense; Sather gifted Tortorella with more firepower. To ignore that is absurd. At the same time, Tortorella seized the attention of the players, and that helped. In fairness, however, it's pretty typical for new coaches to succeeed when they first take over. The players are worried about such a huge change, and they tend to work harder for a while. How long that lasts depends on the coach. We'll see about Tortorella this year.
