HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Notices

Oilers News and Blog Reports 07/13/09 Are you nervous about Grebeshkov?

View Poll Results: Still no contract with Grebeshkov, are you nervous?
No, they will get him signed 90 82.57%
No, they won't sign him, but I didn't want him to 0 0%
Yes, I worry they will lose him 19 17.43%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-13-2009, 10:24 PM
  #126
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Fair enough. Someday Pouliot might be as good as Craig Conroy.

In the meantime, I'll take Conroy and sign Pouliot when he is as good.
Okay, that's fair.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2009, 10:28 PM
  #127
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Different circumstances but you want to believe he's not capable of being a player so fill yer boots.
All I'm saying is while he may be effective, there exists the possibility that the pressure gets to him and he's not nearly the savior that some people expect him to be.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2009, 10:34 PM
  #128
Showerhead
Registered User
 
Showerhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Might be true but that wasn't the question.

Which one is likely to help win you a hockey game next season?

My money is on Conroy.
Hello, DSF. Been a while since I've been at HF beyond the daily news threads you, BlueBelle, and HA101 among others have so graciously kept going for everyone.

I've seen the Conroy/Pouliot debate here and at Lowetide's blog (though I can't remember if it is you pushing it over there) and I'm just curious as to the point you're making. As I understand it, you are looking up and down the roster and deciding that Calgary's depth is better than Edmonton's (and honestly, with Iginla et al, the top end talent argument is likely non-existent)... and by seeing an experienced player who has put up solid results slotted in Calgary's 3C slot vs. our current unsettled situation (regardless of your opinion of Pouliot's ceiling, it's clear that Conroy is the superior player today) you are declaring that Edmonton is simply not good enough. Is this fair?

The reason I ask is because using Conroy's point totals from last season while simultaneously using the #3C tag seems a bit off. Jokinen played just 19 games or less than a quarter of the season as a Calgary Flame and as such, Conroy was in Calgary's top 6 for much of the season while he put up those points. A quick look at Calgary's TOI/60 confirms it, but perhaps more importantly Conroy's QOT comes in at 4th highest on the team as well. This doesn't overcome the disparity between the players IMO and if your point is only that Calgary's forwards are in a better position going forward, then it may be as simple as Conroy > Pouliot. If your point, however, is to try to show the exact magnitude of the difference between them, I'd say you're being a bit one sided. What are your thoughts?

Showerhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2009, 10:49 PM
  #129
dashingsilverfox*
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paradise
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Showerhead View Post
Hello, DSF. Been a while since I've been at HF beyond the daily news threads you, BlueBelle, and HA101 among others have so graciously kept going for everyone.

I've seen the Conroy/Pouliot debate here and at Lowetide's blog (though I can't remember if it is you pushing it over there) and I'm just curious as to the point you're making. As I understand it, you are looking up and down the roster and deciding that Calgary's depth is better than Edmonton's (and honestly, with Iginla et al, the top end talent argument is likely non-existent)... and by seeing an experienced player who has put up solid results slotted in Calgary's 3C slot vs. our current unsettled situation (regardless of your opinion of Pouliot's ceiling, it's clear that Conroy is the superior player today) you are declaring that Edmonton is simply not good enough. Is this fair?

The reason I ask is because using Conroy's point totals from last season while simultaneously using the #3C tag seems a bit off. Jokinen played just 19 games or less than a quarter of the season as a Calgary Flame and as such, Conroy was in Calgary's top 6 for much of the season while he put up those points. A quick look at Calgary's TOI/60 confirms it, but perhaps more importantly Conroy's QOT comes in at 4th highest on the team as well. This doesn't overcome the disparity between the players IMO and if your point is only that Calgary's forwards are in a better position going forward, then it may be as simple as Conroy > Pouliot. If your point, however, is to try to show the exact magnitude of the difference between them, I'd say you're being a bit one sided. What are your thoughts?
Great to see you here again.

My thoughts are that Calgary's forward depth, while hardly the epitome of excellence, is not nearly the liability that some would make it out to be.

Their first line is first rate and their "depth", or lack thereof, is being overstated.

They will live or die by their defense and goaltending but I think the Sutters know that.

I still expect a Phaneuf for forward trade.

dashingsilverfox* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2009, 11:00 PM
  #130
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Great to see you here again.

My thoughts are that Calgary's forward depth, while hardly the epitome of excellence, is not nearly the liability that some would make it out to be.

Their first line is first rate and their "depth", or lack thereof, is being overstated.

They will live or die by their defense and goaltending but I think the Sutters know that.

I still expect a Phaneuf for forward trade.
Or it could be that some are understating the forward depth issue.

Trading Phaneuf for a forward helps them in what way? Their big three on defence are what has people salivating. You take one of them away and they pretty much are where they have been the last couple of years. Their top 3 are fine, although we have to see if Bourque can keep up the scoring.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2009, 11:02 PM
  #131
dashingsilverfox*
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paradise
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
Or it could be that some are understating the forward depth issue.

Trading Phaneuf for a forward helps them in what way? Their big three on defence are what has people salivating. You take one of them away and they pretty much are where they have been the last couple of years. Their top 3 are fine, although we have to see if Bourque can keep up the scoring.
As much as you may not like it, Phaneuf is likely to get you at least a great top six forward or two.

dashingsilverfox* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2009, 11:07 PM
  #132
Red Deer Rebel
Registered User
 
Red Deer Rebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,307
vCash: 500
Conroy is an old plugger who had a good season before getting crushed by Ben Eager in the playoffs. Old, slow, butter soft players tend to get exposed in the playoffs, and that is what happened to Craig Conroy. Bourque, Sarich, Langkow, and Phaneuf were also sent to the infirmary. They were not only beaten, they were beaten up.

Chicago badly exposed the entire Calgary team in that series. Even somebody like Byfuglien totally outplayed Iginla. Chicago's D is better, their first line players are better, their bottom six forwards are in a different league altogether.

Iginla has been a net minus player in the playoffs for 3 years running (-4 this past season, worst on the team). How many times do these jokes have to get their ***** handed to them before certain posters on this site come to understand that the Calgary Flames are not a Stanley Cup contender.

People need to stop drinking Pierre McGuire's Kool-Aid.

Red Deer Rebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:12 AM
  #133
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,823
vCash: 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
Do you have proof that he is not useful? In almost 20 less games than Conroy and almost 4 minutes less of icetime he had 20 points. He wasn't given much consistency by way of linemates but he did show something. I don't think it is wishful thinking, I think he has some ability and I think he'll prove that this year.
He showed me how to take hooking penalties behind the opposition net. I guess in that way he was effective.

I am the Liquor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:17 AM
  #134
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
He showed me how to take hooking penalties behind the opposition net. I guess in that way he was effective.
He was hardly the only one guilty of poor penalties.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:22 AM
  #135
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
As much as you may not like it, Phaneuf is likely to get you at least a great top six forward or two.
I'm sure Phaneuf could bring back one top six forward but he won't get you two. Doesn't help Calgary anyway, they need far more than that.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:31 AM
  #136
Red Deer Rebel
Registered User
 
Red Deer Rebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
I'm sure Phaneuf could bring back one top six forward but he won't get you two. Doesn't help Calgary anyway, they need far more than that.
Phaneuf won't be moved this year, unless the Flames start stinking it up. If that happens, he may be moved, and I can safely predict that we will then be inundated with a new series of strident declarations predicting that the Flames are going to go all the way .....

Red Deer Rebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:38 AM
  #137
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,823
vCash: 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
He was hardly the only one guilty of poor penalties.
Maybe so but if you are a fourth line player with limited ice time and you arent contributing in other ways then you better not take stupid penalties. He is a washout. I cant believe we are still stuck with Pouliot, Nilsson and Brule. All three of those tirebiters should be gone by now.

I am the Liquor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:44 AM
  #138
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Maybe so but if you are a fourth line player with limited ice time and you arent contributing in other ways then you better not take stupid penalties. He is a washout. I cant believe we are still stuck with Pouliot, Nilsson and Brule. All three of those tirebiters should be gone by now.
He wasn't put in any position to succeed. Not many were this past season. In my opinion he is not a washout. One of the things that he did more so than anyone else on this team was drive the net and he managed to put the puck in the net on occasion and his passing is very good. One of the best passers on the team.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:47 AM
  #139
dashingsilverfox*
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paradise
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
He wasn't put in any position to succeed. Not many were this past season. In my opinion he is not a washout. One of the things that he did more so than anyone else on this team was drive the net and he managed to put the puck in the net on occasion and his passing is very good. One of the best passers on the team.
Players tend to get put in positions to succeed when they deserve it.

dashingsilverfox* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:48 AM
  #140
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,823
vCash: 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
He wasn't put in any position to succeed. Not many were this past season. In my opinion he is not a washout. One of the things that he did more so than anyone else on this team was drive the net and he managed to put the puck in the net on occasion and his passing is very good. One of the best passers on the team.
Im sure he will get a chance this year. We will see. God knows we need someone to step up and do something.

I am the Liquor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:53 AM
  #141
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Im sure he will get a chance this year. We will see. God knows we need someone to step up and do something.
You're not kidding. I'm not naive enough to believe we have a cup contender, but I want to see what Quinn/Renney can get out of these guys. If Pouliot shows nothing, I hope they move him, but if he actually does something, I'll be thrilled.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:55 AM
  #142
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Players tend to get put in positions to succeed when they deserve it.
That would be lovely, but sometimes you have to play a player where they belong instead of fitting a square peg in a round hole (see Pisani as a centre).

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:56 AM
  #143
dashingsilverfox*
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Paradise
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,652
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
That would be lovely, but sometimes you have to play a player where they belong instead of fitting a square peg in a round hole (see Pisani as a centre).
Or Pouliot as an NHL player?

dashingsilverfox* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 12:59 AM
  #144
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,367
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
He wasn't put in any position to succeed. Not many were this past season. In my opinion he is not a washout. One of the things that he did more so than anyone else on this team was drive the net and he managed to put the puck in the net on occasion and his passing is very good. One of the best passers on the team.
Bingo

Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Players tend to get put in positions to succeed when they deserve it.
Do you remember who the coach was DSF???

Quote:
Originally Posted by North View Post
That would be lovely, but sometimes you have to play a player where they belong instead of fitting a square peg in a round hole (see Pisani as a centre).
Hopefully those days are long gone.

Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 01:04 AM
  #145
North
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Or Pouliot as an NHL player?
Pouliot is an NHL player. You would have been saying the same thing about Conroy after his first real season. I guess Dustin Boyd and Frederik Sjostrom are not a real NHL players then. That kind of flies in the face of Conroy's line being a good third line since two-thirds of the line are useless.

North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 02:51 AM
  #146
voxel
Unsustainable Eberle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 10,710
vCash: 500
The love for the chicken is insane. The moneypuck people should see two major issues: underwhelming results these past two season and the lack of progression.

Everyone is expecting MAP to have a P.Sharp-like breakout, but honestly he's a 4C at best - the only thing he does well is pass. He's replaceable with a $1M vet. I'm okay with evaluating MAP, Brule, JFJ, etc. this season, but they should all be flushed down the prospect toilet if they don't progress.

How about another aviater bet for the chicken-lovers? I bet Brodziak AND Glencross put up more points, better Corsi, better GF/60 and GA/60 numbers across the board than MAP. Basically the same bet as GlenX vs. MAP.

voxel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 03:01 AM
  #147
I am the Liquor
Registered User
 
I am the Liquor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,823
vCash: 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
The love for the chicken is insane. The moneypuck people should see two major issues: underwhelming results these past two season and the lack of progression.

Everyone is expecting MAP to have a P.Sharp-like breakout, but honestly he's a 4C at best - the only thing he does well is pass. He's replaceable with a $1M vet. I'm okay with evaluating MAP, Brule, JFJ, etc. this season, but they should all be flushed down the prospect toilet if they don't progress.

How about another aviater bet for the chicken-lovers? I bet Brodziak AND Glencross put up more points, better Corsi, better GF/60 and GA/60 numbers across the board than MAP. Basically the same bet as GlenX vs. MAP.
I dont think you will get any takers.

I am the Liquor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 04:42 AM
  #148
harpoon
Registered User
 
harpoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,318
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
"At any rate, I generated Quality of Competition four different ways for the Edmonton Oilers. Rankings among regular players are below:"

What follows is a table containing 4 wildly different calculations for each player. Proof positive that this QoC number is more noise than signal.

Like Feng Shui, I guess QoC is whatever you want it to be.
No kidding . Lately the stats brigade has gone off the deep end . Its become a competition to see who can come up with the most irrelevant ( but more importantly original damn it ) way to try and pin down a fluid game like hockey with numbers . Once the ( self-nominated ) intelligent fans accept a new stat as legit , the nerd that created it will enjoy godlike status in the oilogosphere and a bunch of accolates will promptly start pimping Johnson or Dvorak or Betts all over the board .

I read the blog you quoted . Best laugh I've had all week .

harpoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2009, 07:23 AM
  #149
Mr Sakich
Registered User
 
Mr Sakich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Motel 35
Posts: 7,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Fair enough. Someday Pouliot might be as good as Craig Conroy.

In the meantime, I'll take Conroy and sign Pouliot when he is as good.
depends which Conroy you are getting - the 37 year old who put up 48 points last year, or the 35/36 year old who only had 35 and 37 the previous two years.

Last year looks like an aberation to a normal trend and I sure wouldn't bet the house on a repeat performance.

Mr Sakich is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:11 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.