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In regards to Draper, Maltby, Holmstrom, etc.

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Old
07-15-2009, 12:17 PM
  #26
detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by Booyah! View Post
it's 2x league minimum, think he's worth that when he signed his deal?
575k is new league minimum. Considering the only players who signed for 575k this year were players who can't even crack a regular lineup, 300,000 about league minimum is nothing to scoff at. Its not like Maltby is a pylon or sucks at defense.

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07-15-2009, 01:12 PM
  #27
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Maltby does suck at defense, and is only marginally better than a pylon. I've been advocating since last season that we axe Maltby and replace him with a much more productive player at the same cost, such as Abdelkader or Helm.

Let me back those claims up with some hard numbers. Maltby hasn't been a plus player since before the lockout. Over the past four seasons, he's a combined -35... on a team that is way to the positive side of the ledger. Maltby was +24 in the season before the lockout.

Maltby has also dropped from 33 points in the season before the lockout to totaling just 43 points in the four post lockout seasons. So his production had dropped by 66%. Oh, Maltby had 2 fewer points than Lilja in 18 more games.

What about hitting? Maltby's hits delivered over the past four seasons is 118, 125, 61, 64. So that's halved.

He's done. We're better off with Downey in that spot, because at least he runs people over and can serve as a punching bag.

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Old
07-15-2009, 02:42 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Maltby does suck at defense, and is only marginally better than a pylon. I've been advocating since last season that we axe Maltby and replace him with a much more productive player at the same cost, such as Abdelkader or Helm.

Let me back those claims up with some hard numbers. Maltby hasn't been a plus player since before the lockout. Over the past four seasons, he's a combined -35... on a team that is way to the positive side of the ledger. Maltby was +24 in the season before the lockout.

Maltby has also dropped from 33 points in the season before the lockout to totaling just 43 points in the four post lockout seasons. So his production had dropped by 66%. Oh, Maltby had 2 fewer points than Lilja in 18 more games.

What about hitting? Maltby's hits delivered over the past four seasons is 118, 125, 61, 64. So that's halved.

He's done. We're better off with Downey in that spot, because at least he runs people over and can serve as a punching bag.
Totally agree and the stats speak for themselves

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Old
07-15-2009, 05:06 PM
  #29
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I don't get the knocks on Maltby's contract. He's paid to be a 12/13 forward and he produces like one. It'd be one thing if he was keeping a kid out of a prime roster spot but he's not - he's just keeping a kid off the roster. And, at that point, the decision is whether it's better for the kid getting spot minutes in Detroit or top line minutes in GR. I think the Wings are right in usually choosing the latter.

And I'm betting we see the Wings do something similar this year - sign a couple of vets to fill out the bottom of the roster, keep Abdelkader&Co. in GR for the year, and then fill out the best team possible in the playoffs.

I can understand the gripes about Holmstrom and Draper - injuries and age have seemed to really hit them hard the past year or so and it looks really attractive to be able to throw that money at Hudler or Hossa instead. But Maltby's fairly paid for what he does.

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07-16-2009, 09:02 AM
  #30
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I don't agree that an 880k cap hit reflects the pay of a 12th or 13th forward. A veteran in that role should be making the minimum or very, very close to it. I'm thinking of contracts like Drake's, McCarty's and Downey's. Maltby is overpaid by a solid 300k. Sure, that's not a huge amount... but it represents over half the cost of a Lebda or Meech. It all adds up.

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Old
07-16-2009, 09:56 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Holland handed out a trio of bad contracts. His apologists can attempt to spin the facts, but a bad contract is a bad contract.
Yes, because paying 7.5ish mil for 100 goals and 100 assists is a bad deal.

Again, the people like DJ that think every year of every contract has to be either a bargain or no worse than market for a guy, basing that assessment solely on the what the player does on the ice in that specific year, are going to always be annoyed.

That is the path they have chosen for themselves.

Look, if Homer stays healthy enough to play 60-70 games this year 20-20 isn't unreasonable, even in a Hudler-ish role. 2.25 for one last year isn't bad. Draper's probably overpaid 250-500k this year but he won a Selke in Detroit at 1.4 mil, so the Wings have had some pretty decent bargain years with him, too.

Maltby's probably the least effective of the bunch, but he's also making by far the least. 883k isn't exactly a vastly wasteful amount of money.

Setting all of that stuff aside, however, we are talking about three guys who have been Wings longer than quite a few of the people on this board have been adult fans of the Wings. There is a history here, and as much as the people who were not around to experience it may wish to ignore it, that history has a real value.

It's not like Holland has these guys locked up to gigantic terms. They've all gotten their final multi-year deals.

Relax.

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07-16-2009, 10:21 AM
  #32
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I'm not sure what you're trying to pull, HD. I know you don't honestly believe Maltby + Draper + Homer = 100 goals + 100 assists.

That is the trio of bad contracts to which I referred. Your post is just as I predicted, an attempt at spin. "they were a bargain in the past, so it's OK to overpay now". "Homer could rebound and score 20 goals again, that's not too bad". "They've been here a really long time, isn't that worth something?"

The correct responses are 1. No, it is not OK to overpay after the fact. Too bad for Draper that he was underpaid in his prime, but that doesn't entitle him to jack. 2. Highly, highly unlikely. I've seen many players pass from the twilight to the end of their career. That's where Homer is at. 3. OK, Holland can keep being loyal to a fault. Just don't be surprised when we morph into the Avalanche or Maple Leafs.

They are bad contracts. Period. Nothing you've said refutes that.

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Old
07-16-2009, 04:43 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
I don't agree that an 880k cap hit reflects the pay of a 12th or 13th forward. A veteran in that role should be making the minimum or very, very close to it. I'm thinking of contracts like Drake's, McCarty's and Downey's. Maltby is overpaid by a solid 300k. Sure, that's not a huge amount... but it represents over half the cost of a Lebda or Meech. It all adds up.
except McCarty and Downey are, arguably, not even 12th or 13th quality forwards. And Meech has barely been an 8th defenceman at this point and also a clear step behind Maltby relative to their positions.

If you want to take the lesser player for less money and debate the on-ice differences between Downey and Maltby, I can see the argument there. Regardless of who it is, they'll be getting less than ten minutes a night - but I don't think that necessarily makes Maltby overpaid.

with Drake, I'll gladly concede he was a better player than Maltby for a very good price in the playoffs. But it should also be mentioned that for 82 regular season games, Drake was considered a bad signing.

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Old
07-16-2009, 06:54 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to pull, HD. I know you don't honestly believe Maltby + Draper + Homer = 100 goals + 100 assists.
Actually, DJ... that's just what Homer has done. All by himself. He's made around 7.5 mil over the past 4 years, and with any kind of year this year he's going to hit 100-100.

Quote:
That is the trio of bad contracts to which I referred. Your post is just as I predicted, an attempt at spin. "they were a bargain in the past, so it's OK to overpay now". "Homer could rebound and score 20 goals again, that's not too bad". "They've been here a really long time, isn't that worth something?"
Otherwise referred to as, "common sense".

Quote:
The correct responses are 1. No, it is not OK to overpay after the fact. Too bad for Draper that he was underpaid in his prime, but that doesn't entitle him to jack. 2. Highly, highly unlikely. I've seen many players pass from the twilight to the end of their career. That's where Homer is at. 3. OK, Holland can keep being loyal to a fault. Just don't be surprised when we morph into the Avalanche or Maple Leafs.

They are bad contracts. Period. Nothing you've said refutes that.
To you. Which, honestly, is about the farthest thing from a surprise imaginable.

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Old
07-16-2009, 07:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Maltby does suck at defense, and is only marginally better than a pylon. I've been advocating since last season that we axe Maltby and replace him with a much more productive player at the same cost, such as Abdelkader or Helm.

Let me back those claims up with some hard numbers. Maltby hasn't been a plus player since before the lockout. Over the past four seasons, he's a combined -35... on a team that is way to the positive side of the ledger. Maltby was +24 in the season before the lockout.

Maltby has also dropped from 33 points in the season before the lockout to totaling just 43 points in the four post lockout seasons. So his production had dropped by 66%. Oh, Maltby had 2 fewer points than Lilja in 18 more games.

What about hitting? Maltby's hits delivered over the past four seasons is 118, 125, 61, 64. So that's halved.

He's done. We're better off with Downey in that spot, because at least he runs people over and can serve as a punching bag.
Not that I'm much of a fan of Maltby's play over the past couple years, but taking his stats at face value doesn't say nearly as much as you think it does. His +/- cratering has more to do with the fact that his line no longer scores than him "sucking at defense", and of course his hits have tailed off--his ice time has been slashed. On a per-minute basis I bet those numbers are a lot steadier.

Yes, he's old and a marginal player now, but hey, if we cut him and replace him with a minimum wage scrub, we save enough money to pay for all of... half of another minimum wage scrub! Halle-freakin-lujah. Our cap troubles are over!

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Old
07-16-2009, 08:06 PM
  #36
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Maltby's alright.. we can't really say he's holding off any youngsters from playing at this point.

Draper's probably the worst of the bunch, given what is expected of him, and how his tenacity has tallied off lately.

Homer's only been bad this last season, but I think he's kaput. He's been racking up the injuries and don't seem to mesh with Z/D playmaking anymore. I don't blame Kenny for giving him that contract though.

Buying out players would be an Illitch decision, I don't think Kenny can make those calls, and I dunno if Illitch wants to flush money just because - I mean, this time (they) don't HAVE to buy anyone out.

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Old
07-18-2009, 10:10 PM
  #37
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Draper's "role" on this team is overrated. Watch him win faceoffs, the majority he wins are by using his hand. Which is fine, you can look at defensive players all over the league that do so but lets not kid ourselves. Hes not taking offensive zone faceoffs and winning them 70% of the time. His faceoff percentage is only marginally better than Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's.

Filppula is that bad at faceoffs either, so is Draper really necessary or a luxury?

Hes not going anywhere though, he'll play out his contract.

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Old
07-18-2009, 10:14 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Mfox View Post
Draper's "role" on this team is overrated. Watch him win faceoffs, the majority he wins are by using his hand. Which is fine, you can look at defensive players all over the league that do so but lets not kid ourselves. Hes not taking offensive zone faceoffs and winning them 70% of the time. His faceoff percentage is only marginally better than Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's.

Filppula is that bad at faceoffs either, so is Draper really necessary or a luxury?

Hes not going anywhere though, he'll play out his contract.
4% is a decent amount better. Not saying 4% justifies his contract as it stands right now but being the 2nd best faceoff man in the league is showing that he's still doing that part of his job extremely well.

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Old
07-18-2009, 10:17 PM
  #39
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Show me another player that received a three year deal after turning 35 for squarely being able to win a faceoff..

Yannick Perrault is weeping somewhere.

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Old
07-18-2009, 10:19 PM
  #40
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Show me another player that received a three year deal after turning 35 for squarely being able to win a faceoff..

Yannick Perrault is weeping somewhere.
Like I said, it doesn't justify his contract but let's not poo-poo that part of his game because his cap number is annoying.

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07-18-2009, 10:22 PM
  #41
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Like I said, it doesn't justify his contract but let's not poo-poo that part of his game because his cap number is annoying.
But that is the point.. If Datsyuk were putting up 40 points a season people would complain about his cap hit.

$1.6 million to play 5 minutes a game?

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Old
07-18-2009, 10:29 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Mfox View Post
But that is the point.. If Datsyuk were putting up 40 points a season people would complain about his cap hit.

$1.6 million to play 5 minutes a game?
Fair enough, but I wasn't responding to his role in regards to his cap hit. Even if those two things are intertwined, him having a bad cap number doesn't negate the fact that he's still an elite faceoff man.

Doesn't mean he should be making 1.583m/yr either.

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