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Old
07-14-2009, 08:38 PM
  #76
Little Nilan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flappuck View Post
Mara and Spacek aren't slow...
Oh Mara is very slow, Spacek definitely didn't look very quick last year, but he's good at moving the puck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Markov, Hammer, Gorges, Spacek and Mara aren't slow. Some are average, and some are above average, and some are quick on their feet, in that lot.
lol, Mara isn't slow... seriously guys, if you've never seen someone play, just don't say anything, you're allowed not to have an opinion on something. (I'm not saying you two aren't good posters, not in the least, but come on...the guy is just slow)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
But yeah, its always black or white, slow or fast. No friggin middle ground.

sigh
No there is a middle ground.

Markov's an exceptional skater, hence why he never gets beat to the puck.

Hamrlik is above average, but he gets the job done, great puck mover.

Gorges is okay, skating isn't an issue, Spacek won't have any issues with his speed either since he brings a lot of different things.

Gill and Mara though, they're both very slow, all in NHL relative terms of course, if Martin pairs them together and the forwards don't help out, it'll be painfull to watch.

It's not like having an average skating defense is bad. How many teams in the league actually have more than 1 speedy defensemen? How many great skating defensemen are actually good? We once had a defense with Markov, Bouillon, Dandenault, O'byrne, Hamrlik and Komisarek, that's pretty darn quick on average yet it was average defensively. You can go through the league and you'll see actual speed on defense isn't the norm(, it doesn't have to be either, they can be very efficient but on the other hand, it can be dangerous if the coach doesn't use them properly.

It's funny though that a couple of weeks ago, the Habs had Bennett, McDonagh, Fischer, Subban in the system, all above average to exceptional skaters.

That said, if you look at the squad right now, you'll see it's very well balanced. Hamrlik and Gorges are versatile, Spacek and Markov will be key on the PP and Gill and Mara are both great on the PK. We've lacked good Ds on the PK for a while now, this will help a lot.


Last edited by Little Nilan: 07-14-2009 at 08:53 PM.
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Old
07-14-2009, 08:53 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I'm not in Quebec.

People think that he is that type of player because he has been that kind of player all his life esp. the Duck's Cup winning year...although he's had some recent injury problems and hasn't been as lately. He is a mean ******* to play against...and still Gainey's biggest mistake todate, even with his horrific signings.

Montreal's defense is average at best and once again, this isn't the kind of complete d-corp that wins championships. The two key areas that were not addressed last year that was exposed int the stretch run is still the exact problem CH has today.

Goodnight.
Well, half the people think he's overrated and the other half think he's an amazing player.
Guess we'll have a better idea in the next couple of years while not playing alongside Pronger or Niedermayer.

As far as Montreal's defense being average, I don't remember Tampa Bay or Carolina's defense being all that impressive either yet they won the cup.

You say they're missing two things, one shot which even though you say Spacek is not, he is.
A bruising defenseman like Orpik which Detroit didn't need to win a cup and then go back to lose in a game 7 the next year and the same could apply to the runs by both Tampa and Carolina.

Pittsburgh's defense wasn't amazing either but they got good goaltending.

All in all, they have a good enough defense.


Last edited by flappuck: 07-14-2009 at 09:00 PM.
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Old
07-14-2009, 10:22 PM
  #78
Canadiens1958
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Fast or Slow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kareem View Post
Oh Mara is very slow, Spacek definitely didn't look very quick last year, but he's good at moving the puck.




lol, Mara isn't slow... seriously guys, if you've never seen someone play, just don't say anything, you're allowed not to have an opinion on something. (I'm not saying you two aren't good posters, not in the least, but come on...the guy is just slow)



No there is a middle ground.

Markov's an exceptional skater, hence why he never gets beat to the puck.

Hamrlik is above average, but he gets the job done, great puck mover.

Gorges is okay, skating isn't an issue, Spacek won't have any issues with his speed either since he brings a lot of different things.

Gill and Mara though, they're both very slow, all in NHL relative terms of course, if Martin pairs them together and the forwards don't help out, it'll be painfull to watch.

It's not like having an average skating defense is bad. How many teams in the league actually have more than 1 speedy defensemen? How many great skating defensemen are actually good? We once had a defense with Markov, Bouillon, Dandenault, O'byrne, Hamrlik and Komisarek, that's pretty darn quick on average yet it was average defensively. You can go through the league and you'll see actual speed on defense isn't the norm(, it doesn't have to be either, they can be very efficient but on the other hand, it can be dangerous if the coach doesn't use them properly.

It's funny though that a couple of weeks ago, the Habs had Bennett, McDonagh, Fischer, Subban in the system, all above average to exceptional skaters.

That said, if you look at the squad right now, you'll see it's very well balanced. Hamrlik and Gorges are versatile, Spacek and Markov will be key on the PP and Gill and Mara are both great on the PK. We've lacked good Ds on the PK for a while now, this will help a lot.
Fast or slow is not the only issue. Knowing the angles and the geometry of the game is equally important.

Rick Green was slow but he had an excellent grasp of the angles and the geometry of the game so proper positioning required very movement. A defenseman has to know when and how to make the play come to him or through him.

A fast defenseman who chases is very vulnerable as he leaves openings that may be exploited.

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Old
07-14-2009, 10:34 PM
  #79
Little Nilan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Fast or slow is not the only issue. Knowing the angles and the geometry of the game is equally important.

Rick Green was slow but he had an excellent grasp of the angles and the geometry of the game so proper positioning required very movement. A defenseman has to know when and how to make the play come to him or through him.

A fast defenseman who chases is very vulnerable as he leaves openings that may be exploited.
Yes you're right, I agree with you completely.

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Old
07-14-2009, 10:35 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flappuck View Post
Well, half the people think he's overrated and the other half think he's an amazing player.
Guess we'll have a better idea in the next couple of years while not playing alongside Pronger or Niedermayer.

As far as Montreal's defense being average, I don't remember Tampa Bay or Carolina's defense being all that impressive either yet they won the cup.

You say they're missing two things, one shot which even though you say Spacek is not, he is.
A bruising defenseman like Orpik which Detroit didn't need to win a cup and then go back to lose in a game 7 the next year and the same could apply to the runs by both Tampa and Carolina.

Pittsburgh's defense wasn't amazing either but they got good goaltending.

All in all, they have a good enough defense.
Yeah,Beauchemin is so no good that he's invited to the Olympic squad.

I can't believe that I've wasted all this time entertaining a guy who thinks that Hammrlik is a 'more punishing' physical dman than Beauchemin because he's had more statistical hits on paper!!!

I'm done. It was my mistake trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Run along now young man...does Stan Lee still say 'nuff said' in his comic books?

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Old
07-15-2009, 10:11 AM
  #81
flappuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Yeah,Beauchemin is so no good that he's invited to the Olympic squad.

I can't believe that I've wasted all this time entertaining a guy who thinks that Hammrlik is a 'more punishing' physical dman than Beauchemin because he's had more statistical hits on paper!!!

I'm done. It was my mistake trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Run along now young man...does Stan Lee still say 'nuff said' in his comic books?
1. Never said the guy was bad. Just saying he's not as good as people make him to be around here.

2. Never said Hamrlik was more punishing than Beauchemin.

3. Why finish with something patronizing and borderline insulting? Can't we have a civilized and respectful conversation?


Last edited by flappuck: 07-15-2009 at 10:18 AM.
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Old
07-15-2009, 10:25 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flappuck View Post
1. Never said the guy was bad. Just saying he's not as good as people make him to be around here.

2. Never said Hamrlik was more punishing than Beauchemin.

3. Why finish with something patronizing and borderline insulting? Can't we have a civilized and respectful conversation?
NEVER!!!!!!



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Old
07-15-2009, 10:47 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
NEVER!!!!!!


Damn!

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Old
07-15-2009, 11:34 AM
  #84
Ghetto Sangria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffleafsfan91 View Post
lol not even close to being one of the best. Maybe top 15.

Red Wings
Lidstrom - Rafalski
Kronwall - Stuart
Lebda - Ericsson

Flyers
Pronger - Parent
Timonen - Coburn
Carle - Jones


Flames
Bouwmeester - Phaneuf
Regehr - Sarich
Pardy - Giordano

Bruins
Chara - Wideman
Ward - Hunwick
Ference - Stuart


Blackhawks
Keith - Seabrook
Campbell - Hjamarlsson
Barker - Hendry


Maple Leafs
Kaberle - Komisarek
Beauchemin - Schenn
Finger - White


Vancouver
Mitchell - Bieksa
Salo - Elder
O'Brien - ????

Sharks
Boyle - Blake
Vlasic - Erhoff
Murray - Lukowich


I consider all of these to be better than

Markov - Ward
Spacek - Hamrlik
Gorges - Gill
Fixed.

8 teams that have the same or better line out of 30... thats not one of the best?

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Old
07-15-2009, 12:43 PM
  #85
Canadiens1958
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Far From

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffleafsfan91 View Post
lol not even close to being one of the best. Maybe top 15.

Red Wings
Lidstrom - Rafalski
Kronwall - Stuart
Lebda - Ericsson

Flyers
Pronger - Parent
Timonen - Coburn
Carle - Jones

Oilers
Visnovsky - Souray
Gilbert - Grebeshov
Smid - Staios

Flames
Bouwmeester - Phaneuf
Regehr - Sarich
Pardy - Giordano

Bruins
Chara - Wideman
Ward - Hunwick
Ference - Stuart

Thrashers
Kubina - Bogosian
Enstrom - Hainsey
Valabik - Salmela

Blackhawks
Keith - Seabrook
Campbell - Hjamarlsson
Barker - Hendry

Nashville
Weber - Suter
Hamhuis ( Don't even have to finsh cause its already better)

Maple Leafs
Kaberle - Komisarek
Beauchemin - Schenn
Finger - White

Lightning
Ohlund - Meszaros
Hedman - Ranger
Walker - Smaby

Vancouver
Mitchell - Bieksa
Salo - Elder
O'Brien - ????

Sharks
Boyle - Blake
Vlasic - Erhoff
Murray - Lukowich


I consider all of these to be better than

Markov - Ward
Spacek - Hamrlik
Gorges - Gill
Oilers, Leafs, Thrashers d pairings, have never proven anything as a group. Canucks were exposed as slow by the Hawks, Sharks as lacking by the Ducks,Lightning - see Canucks re Ohlund, Hedman let's not assume, the rest are pedestrian at best. Flames 5th/6th are iffy.

Canadiens upgraded over Boullion, Dandeneault and Brisebois with a nice reserve In O'Byrne, Subban, Weber, remains to be seen if they can play as a 6 player group.

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Old
07-15-2009, 01:18 PM
  #86
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I often see 6 dmen mentioned but you need more then that. I've heard Darryl Sutter say a team needs 10 NHL calibre dmen on the depth chart. Look at all the serious injuries the Habs had last year on the blueline. It's no different on other teams.

I'd look for the Habs to add some more depth before the summer is over.

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Old
07-15-2009, 01:37 PM
  #87
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Bah, we have O'Byrne, Henry, Weber and Carle who can step up in risk of injuries.

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07-15-2009, 01:48 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
Bah, we have O'Byrne, Henry, Weber and Carle who can step up in risk of injuries.
Who among those would the team be comfortable playing in the NHL right now for a significant stretch?

I don't know. I do notice they added Shawn Belle back to the depth chart today.

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Old
07-15-2009, 01:51 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
Bah, we have O'Byrne, Henry, Weber and Carle who can step up in risk of injuries.
You can now add Belle to that list.

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Old
07-15-2009, 01:54 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili View Post
Who was on the ice with seconds left in game seven, with the Stanley Cup on the line? Could that have been Hal Gill? Must have been because the Pens think he sucks eh?

Thank goodness MAF was on the ice too....

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