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How is the economic crisis effecting teams in Germany?

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Old
05-09-2009, 06:57 AM
  #51
Burgs
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Originally Posted by HockeyInsider87 View Post
Thanks Burgs. I read in the paper that Duisburg have asked to be relegated to the ESBG. Do you think this is a financial decision? Has their owner been losing money with his team in the DEL? I know they have not done well and seem to self distruct every year. Must be another poorly run club.
Well, Duisburg finished dead last in each of the 4 DEL seasons they played. Never really had the money to compete with the rest of the field. Attendance sucked as well (I don't think they averaged over 2,000 in any season) so their owner Ralf Pape finally stopped the bleeding after this season. I'm sure he lost a lot of money in those 4 years. It got him nowhere, and Duisburg simply is not a DEL market. It's the third DEL attempt in the Ruhr Area that has failed (after Oberhausen and Essen).

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05-19-2009, 09:09 AM
  #52
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Well, Duisburg finished dead last in each of the 4 DEL seasons they played. Never really had the money to compete with the rest of the field. Attendance sucked as well (I don't think they averaged over 2,000 in any season) so their owner Ralf Pape finally stopped the bleeding after this season. I'm sure he lost a lot of money in those 4 years. It got him nowhere, and Duisburg simply is not a DEL market. It's the third DEL attempt in the Ruhr Area that has failed (after Oberhausen and Essen).
Thanks for the info Burgs

I have not heard of any team in Germany other than the Schwenningen Wild Wings that still owe players their April 1st paycheck. SERC WILD WINGS must be having big money problems. My understanding is they have not even contacted the players to let them know when they might get paid. No communication at all. NEW SERC WILD WINGS PLAYERS BEWARE.

I am tempted to contact the NHLPA and PHPA in North America and ask them to let all association players in North America know about certain teams that don't honor contracts or are having trouble honoring contracts in Europe.

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05-29-2009, 07:25 PM
  #53
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I can't post the team name yet but there are reports another Bundesliga team ready to announce the cancellation of the 2008/09 season.

Schwenningen Wild Wings still have not paid players their April 1st paychecks. For imports that is costly. Since April 1st the Euro has got a lot weaker costing players about 10-12% on the dollar. That's a substantial penalty to players all because the team failed to budget properly.

Good to see the DEL will still have 15 teams and Duisburg could be a good addition to the Bundesliga.

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05-30-2009, 12:53 PM
  #54
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Are you one of the players concerned or their agent or how do follow that whole affair?

Btw, the "general manager" of my Crimmitschau team recently said that he expects across the league budget reductions of 20 to 30 percent for the upcoming Bundesliga season. That's a pretty big cut.

This week, the SC Riessersee somehow (anonymous donor, yeah right) scraped together the needed money to apply for a Bundesliga license for 09-10 so they're off the hook for now. Though with the SCR you never know. But now Freiburg is in trouble. The city is renovating the (city-owned) arena which most likely means that Freiburg can't play any exhibition games and the first couple regular season games at home. Instead of working with the ESBG on a change in schedule to solve the problem, the club now demands the city to cover the expected revenue losses and has threatend to cancel the entire season if they don't get paid. We'll see whether this is all just blustering or not.

Meanwhile, the split of the Oberliga (3rd tier) into northern and southern "conferences" is dead in the water after several northern clubs (Eisbären Juniors, Preussen Berlin, Rostock and Halle) have announced their withdrawing from the league, leaving the planned Oberliga Nord with only 4 clubs remaining. The one team that insists on playing Oberliga, however, are the Leipzig Blue Lions - the one club that should have been forced into 4th tier Regionalliga due to bankrupcty.

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05-31-2009, 01:42 PM
  #55
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Are you one of the players concerned or their agent or how do follow that whole affair?

Btw, the "general manager" of my Crimmitschau team recently said that he expects across the league budget reductions of 20 to 30 percent for the upcoming Bundesliga season. That's a pretty big cut.

This week, the SC Riessersee somehow (anonymous donor, yeah right) scraped together the needed money to apply for a Bundesliga license for 09-10 so they're off the hook for now. Though with the SCR you never know. But now Freiburg is in trouble. The city is renovating the (city-owned) arena which most likely means that Freiburg can't play any exhibition games and the first couple regular season games at home. Instead of working with the ESBG on a change in schedule to solve the problem, the club now demands the city to cover the expected revenue losses and has threatend to cancel the entire season if they don't get paid. We'll see whether this is all just blustering or not.

Meanwhile, the split of the Oberliga (3rd tier) into northern and southern "conferences" is dead in the water after several northern clubs (Eisbären Juniors, Preussen Berlin, Rostock and Halle) have announced their withdrawing from the league, leaving the planned Oberliga Nord with only 4 clubs remaining. The one team that insists on playing Oberliga, however, are the Leipzig Blue Lions - the one club that should have been forced into 4th tier Regionalliga due to bankrupcty.
Simple Burgs. Facebook, private messaging and talking to families of players I have associated with in the past. As someone that was wronged by employers in the past I always stand up for the little guy. This is an excellent forum to keep team owners and managers honest.

I see where Frieberg are coming from. IMO, the city should take some or all of the responsibility for the cost over-runs. A city run raffle for a car or city run lottery could solve the problem but it would take forward thinking leaders to get this done.

The Oberliga seems to be in a bit of a mess these days. Let's hope they get is resolved. From what I can gather the SERC Wild Wings are the only team that still owes players 1/8 of their salaries for 2008/09. What confuses me and others is how they can go out and contract and promise top dollars for next years players when they still owe last seasons players their money. The ESBG and DEL should have a head office contolled by a league Commissioner or President hired by the team Governors to ensure this kind of abuse does not take place. It only hurts the league and the guilty culprits in the long run.

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06-02-2009, 01:54 PM
  #56
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The Hannover Scorpions will play in the DEL next season.
Most players agreed to big paycuts, almost 25%.

The budget will be 4.400.000 in 09/10 compared to 7.500.000€ last season.

Tino Boos was quoted:

"Now it's on us to save the club. Goc and myself contacted all players and since the club always treated us well and always paid us on time we agreed to accept paycuts."

Hats off to Tino!

He really does make it sound that being paid on time is extraordinary.

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07-04-2009, 09:59 AM
  #57
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Great that SC Riessersee have been saved.

I'm told Freiburg have been saved and will play the 2009-10 season.

Any word if the SERC Wild Wings have paid their players for last April yet? Pre-season starts in less than 4 weeks and I believe they still owe 2008-09 players some of their income.

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07-09-2009, 10:09 AM
  #58
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Schwenningen isn't the only team that didn't paid all the salaries... There are two clubs that still owe their guys two salaries (February and March) A few of them will go in front of the court if they don't get the money pretty soon.

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07-14-2009, 11:17 PM
  #59
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Interesting. Any facts to back up which teams still owe players money?

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07-16-2009, 12:20 PM
  #60
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Whew! Today Crimmitschau finally got the OK from the league to the 2. Bundesliga will start with 14 teams. Forced relegation down to the 4th tier Regionalliga or even 5th tier Sachsenliga would have been a catastrophe for this market. We're still going to have the smallest budget but we're still alive at least.

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07-22-2009, 02:27 PM
  #61
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Whew! Today Crimmitschau finally got the OK from the league to the 2. Bundesliga will start with 14 teams. Forced relegation down to the 4th tier Regionalliga or even 5th tier Sachsenliga would have been a catastrophe for this market. We're still going to have the smallest budget but we're still alive at least.
Do you even have any players signed for this season? Were no Bundesliga teams relegated? Good news for your team but you usually get what you pay for. No budget usually means bad team = poor fan attendance and a repeat next off-season. It buys time to find better sponsors and an owner that realizes this and can afford to do something about it.

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07-22-2009, 03:15 PM
  #62
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No budget usually means bad team = poor fan attendance and a repeat next off-season.
no budget means economical crisis in a region of germany were there's already no economy.

crimmitschau is hockey. the fans are maniacs. they have incredible potential since the whole region supports hockey. but unfortunately there's nothing. no potential sponsors. so they will always fight for survival, but it's good news for german hockey that they stay in 2nd-tier.

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07-25-2009, 03:44 AM
  #63
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no budget means economical crisis in a region of germany were there's already no economy.
Oh the economy isn't that bad here, this region is one of the better-off in the East. But the big companies (there's a huge Volkswagen plant just around the corner) don't sponsor locally. And the smaller businesses don't have the money to make a difference.

Quote:
crimmitschau is hockey. the fans are maniacs. they have incredible potential since the whole region supports hockey. but unfortunately there's nothing. no potential sponsors. so they will always fight for survival, but it's good news for german hockey that they stay in 2nd-tier.
Crimmitschau is "owned" by a group of local small-business owners, some of them are former players for the club. They can keep things afloat (for now) but we cannot compete with the big money teams. Once in a while we find a gem like Eric Schneider or Patrick DesRochers but even then they'll leave after that one season.

But at least Crimmitschau has never forfeited a season or missed payroll since being re-established in 1990. The club almost dissolved during the off-season two years ago but fans, sponsors and the city collected over 1 million dollars in three months to save their team. It's not as crazy as it was 10-15 years ago when the ETC was near the top 10 in national attendance (while playing in the 2nd and 3rd tier leagues) but it's still a "hockey town". Still, people eventually tire of losing all the time so this market is going to die a slow death. Unless some white knight will come out of nowhere or the owners win in the lottery or some other miracle happens.

One thing the clubs is apparently trying this summer is signing foreigners who already have Europe experience. We got two Canadians who played in Scandinavia last season, plus a Latvian. Last year the foreigners were mostly fresh from North America and for some reason that didn't work at all. Maybe because we had to use three coaches as the first one deserted to the KHL just 1 week before our season opener and the second one was hired on short notice and quickly looked overextended. The chaos that is minor league hockey.

And there was no relegation because Bad Tölz declared bankruptcy during the season and was therefore relegated without a "playdown" series. Which meant that Crimmitschau and Dresden missed out on planned revenues from those games. Bad Tölz (like every other team) had to leave a sum of security money with the league from which to compensate the other teams in such a case. However, the rules were worded so ambigously that Tölz now claims it doesn't have to pay and the other clubs haven't seen a dime yet. Like I said, the chaos that is minor league hockey...


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Old
07-27-2009, 01:30 AM
  #64
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Just for clarification because I've clearly missed a lot since the last time I was here... the DEL has contracted and Duisburg and Nürnberg are out?

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07-27-2009, 05:49 AM
  #65
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No, Nürnberg is still in the league, only Duisburg is out.

Leads to a funny situation, the league gets smaller, the number of regular season games rises from 52 to 56.

It's interesting how teams react to that. Season tickets were sold on the basis of a 52 game season. Most haven't changed the prices for season-tickets, at least as far as I know, but Krefeld demanded that every fan who bought a season ticket has to make additional payments because of the extra two homegames.


I don't think that it was mentioned here, but the DEL screwed up yet again, they shortened the playoffs because of the Olympic break and the WCH being played in Germany.
Pre-playoffs were cut from best-of-five back to best-of-three, and the first playoff round was cut from best of seven to best of five.

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07-27-2009, 03:17 PM
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Good to still see you around Sanderson =)

Wow, you're right, they DID mess up. This is definitely not the year to expand the schedule with so many other things going on.

Pretty messed up for Krefeld to demand of their ticket holders... weren't they in financial trouble like 4-5 years ago? Not always good to p|$$ off a key contributor to your revenue...

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09-06-2009, 10:42 AM
  #67
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Seems like teams have done what they have to do in order to get this season started. Still, several of last years Wild Wings got screwed out of pay by the team. Players and agents be careful. Get a lawyer and don't let teams off the hook. Teams have to learn to be held accountable. Contracts have to be honored or else why bother with them at all.

I'm suprised how few other teams have been listed as having financial trouble. Hopefully the worst is behind us and sponsors will return in a big way.

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09-06-2009, 12:01 PM
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Ha. Dresden just announced, two weeks before the start of the season, that they're still almost €500,000 (over US$ 700,000) short of their planned budget for 2009-10. This playing out of the newest arena in the Bundesliga, and with only 16 pro players on the roster. Blaming loss of sponsors and bad lease deal at Freiberger Arena. How they got approved by the league in June I'll never know.

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09-06-2009, 12:07 PM
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Ha. Dresden just announced, two weeks before the start of the season, that they're still almost €500,000 (over US$ 700,000) short of their planned budget for 2009-10. This playing out of the newest arena in the Bundesliga, and with only 16 pro players on the roster. Blaming loss of sponsors and bad lease deal at Freiberger Arena. How they got approved by the league in June I'll never know.
i always don't understand why teams plan with sponsors who just say they plan to spend money. the DEB should simply ignore this stuff. the teams either have signed contract with sponsors or the sponsor doesn't count. everything else is simply ruining hockey and not professional.

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09-12-2009, 10:43 AM
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Dresden has been cleared to start the season after the city and new sponsors provided the needed money. However the league has punished them with an 8 point deduction for providing false budget data during the licensing process. So they start with -8 points which could be the difference between playoffs and relegation round.

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09-15-2009, 08:25 PM
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Dresden has been cleared to start the season after the city and new sponsors provided the needed money. However the league has punished them with an 8 point deduction for providing false budget data during the licensing process. So they start with -8 points which could be the difference between playoffs and relegation round.
2 games for Dresdan. 2 losses and outscored 18-5. Does anyone really believe they will be able to finish the season in the Bundesliga?

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09-16-2009, 11:45 AM
  #72
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2 games for Dresdan. 2 losses and outscored 18-5. Does anyone really believe they will be able to finish the season in the Bundesliga?
Those losses were primarily because their #1 goaltender Kellen Briggs is out with an injury and they had to play a 20 year old rookie (with an 18-year old backing him up). I believe Dresden spent quite a bit of money on Briggs (he was signed early in the off-season when prices are highest) so that is now a worst-case scenario for them.

They also said they are going to appeal the 8 point penalty because it was unfair. As for their financial future, it's German minor league hockey so who knows? Dresden has been touted as a potential DEL market but they need better management for that to happen. The club is now affiliated with the Eisbären Berlin, hopefully they'll learn a thing or two about running a business from that.

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09-20-2009, 01:05 PM
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Those losses were primarily because their #1 goaltender Kellen Briggs is out with an injury and they had to play a 20 year old rookie (with an 18-year old backing him up). I believe Dresden spent quite a bit of money on Briggs (he was signed early in the off-season when prices are highest) so that is now a worst-case scenario for them.

They also said they are going to appeal the 8 point penalty because it was unfair. As for their financial future, it's German minor league hockey so who knows? Dresden has been touted as a potential DEL market but they need better management for that to happen. The club is now affiliated with the Eisbären Berlin, hopefully they'll learn a thing or two about running a business from that.
Yes, Dresdan would make a good DEL city. Nice facility and a good population to draw from. There must be someone in Dresdan with money and a vision who can take charge and get things headed in the right direction. Thanks for clarifying why the 2 big losses. Much better result last game.

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09-27-2009, 11:11 PM
  #74
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Yes, Dresdan would make a good DEL city. Nice facility and a good population to draw from. There must be someone in Dresdan with money and a vision who can take charge and get things headed in the right direction. Thanks for clarifying why the 2 big losses. Much better result last game.
Good luck looking for this someone. I doubt you'd find someone like e.g. Thomas Sabo in Nuremberg, since people which money, vision and interest in hockey are very very rare in Germany.

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09-30-2009, 01:25 AM
  #75
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I've put together the average attendance figures of the first eight gamedays and compared it with last season. It's just a projection, but it shows the main development.

Just 3 of all 15 teams have increased their attendance. Overall average might not look that bad, but it's biased because the teams haven't had the same number of home games yet.

Team / Absolute Difference / Relative Difference

Berlin Polar Bears / +214 / +1,56
Mannheim Eagles / -1,152 / -9,80
Cologne Sharks / -970 / -9,38

Hamburg Freezers / +137 / +1,72
Frankfurt Lions / -675 / -10,87
DEG Metro Stars / -1,576 / -25,90
Hannover Scorpions / -1,299 / -22,92

Krefeld Penguins / -531 / -11,82
Thomas Sabo Ice Tigers / -473 / -10,94
Straubing Tigers / -451 / -10,67
Kassel Huskies / -482 / -11,84
Iserlohn Roosters / -310 / -8,02
Augsburg Panthers / -209 / -5,68

ERC Ingolstadt / +111 / +3,32
Grizzly Adams Wolfsburg / -144 / -6,19

Total / -219 / -3,73

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