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07-17-2009, 11:34 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
I really don't want to go through that piece by piece, and I honestly get what you're trying to say. I agree with some of what you're saying; disagree with most. That's neither here or there, though. What I really wanted to argue is how you can possibly fathom Frolov bringing us a player who is a "step forward"? What exactly do you mean by that? Kovalchuk? Because if you think that a couple months of Frolov (assuming he is traded at the deadline) - a two time 30 goal scorer with 0 games of playoff experience - plus a Hickey or two, is worth a player of Kovalchuk's caliber you're dreaming or drunk, likely both.
If you are going to use Frolov's 0 games of playoff experience as a negative on his value wouldn't Kovalchuk's 4 games of playoff experience be almost as bad? The fact that Frolov has zero playoff experience is more the GM and coaches fault than it is his.

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07-17-2009, 11:35 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
I really don't want to go through that piece by piece, and I honestly get what you're trying to say. I agree with some of what you're saying; disagree with most. That's neither here or there, though. What I really wanted to argue is how you can possibly fathom Frolov bringing us a player who is a "step forward"? What exactly do you mean by that? Kovalchuk? Because if you think that a couple months of Frolov (assuming he is traded at the deadline) - a two time 30 goal scorer with 0 games of playoff experience - plus a Hickey or two, is worth a player of Kovalchuk's caliber you're dreaming or drunk, likely both.
disagree with most? what, the facts?

a step forward means just that. something, be it an improvement at ANY position. a guy like Scott Hartnell for instance is not only NOT an improvement, but given today's roster, going forward it is completely redundant. THAT is what you call a lateral move.

i never mentioned Ilya Kovalchuk, and quite frankly, i'm not too sure that he would be all that much of a step forward. what has Kovalchuk proven over Frolov? that he is a more prolific goal scorer? how many games have you, me, anyone else here with Center Ice, or the Kings' scouting staff watched to be absolutely comfortable in Ilya's "buying in" or "taking ownership" or "compete," and that he doesn't take nights off? so he has 4 games of post season experience - in a series that Atlanta shouldn't have even been allowed to buy tickets to... they were completely embarrassed, Kovalchuk among them. Ilya is also a career minus 85, which sure, bad team... but he has never once had a plus season, even in their "playoff" year.

even at a cursory glance, does that strike you as someone "committed" to both sides of the puck and all three zones?


and why would Frolov be moved at the deadline? ask yourself, honestly. don't you think that would indicate something far more problematic with the team, like being out of the playoff picture?

if they are firmly in the picture in March, i'll give even money that if Alex isn't moved this summer or within the first month of the season, he will have played a large role in that... so why move HIM at the deadine? what if he's your leading goal scorer again (which you KNOW ins't unlikely), you gonna shoot yourself in the foot heading into the post-season by trading that offense? what do you think you're gonna get back? a non-playoff team isn't going throw a fortune to the Kings for 3 months of negotiating rights. a bubble team looking for a mutual benefit isn't going to give up a part of what helped them get there in the first place. and if you ARE playoff bound, what contender is going to make a trade with you? what contender are you going to make that trade with? a Western Conference team you MIGHT have to face in the playoffs? NOPE! so that leaves about 8 teams you can legitimately say it would be safe to trade him to. now take a look at some of those teams...

what would Pittsburgh give you? Boston? Carolina? etc.?

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07-17-2009, 12:55 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
disagree with most? what, the facts?

a step forward means just that. something, be it an improvement at ANY position. a guy like Scott Hartnell for instance is not only NOT an improvement, but given today's roster, going forward it is completely redundant. THAT is what you call a lateral move.

i never mentioned Ilya Kovalchuk, and quite frankly, i'm not too sure that he would be all that much of a step forward. what has Kovalchuk proven over Frolov? that he is a more prolific goal scorer? how many games have you, me, anyone else here with Center Ice, or the Kings' scouting staff watched to be absolutely comfortable in Ilya's "buying in" or "taking ownership" or "compete," and that he doesn't take nights off? so he has 4 games of post season experience - in a series that Atlanta shouldn't have even been allowed to buy tickets to... they were completely embarrassed, Kovalchuk among them. Ilya is also a career minus 85, which sure, bad team... but he has never once had a plus season, even in their "playoff" year.

even at a cursory glance, does that strike you as someone "committed" to both sides of the puck and all three zones?


and why would Frolov be moved at the deadline? ask yourself, honestly. don't you think that would indicate something far more problematic with the team, like being out of the playoff picture?

if they are firmly in the picture in March, i'll give even money that if Alex isn't moved this summer or within the first month of the season, he will have played a large role in that... so why move HIM at the deadine? what if he's your leading goal scorer again (which you KNOW ins't unlikely), you gonna shoot yourself in the foot heading into the post-season by trading that offense? what do you think you're gonna get back? a non-playoff team isn't going throw a fortune to the Kings for 3 months of negotiating rights. a bubble team looking for a mutual benefit isn't going to give up a part of what helped them get there in the first place. and if you ARE playoff bound, what contender is going to make a trade with you? what contender are you going to make that trade with? a Western Conference team you MIGHT have to face in the playoffs? NOPE! so that leaves about 8 teams you can legitimately say it would be safe to trade him to. now take a look at some of those teams...

what would Pittsburgh give you? Boston? Carolina? etc.?
Okay, first of all, I'm obviously arguing with an extremely hostile person that has an agenda, so I really don't see this going anywhere. Secondly, I understand Frolov is your favorite player. You've gone to great lengths (and text) to get that point across. But I stopped taking your post seriously when you started to convince yourself that you would take Frolov over Kovalchuk. I'm not even sure your last paragraph is English.

The only reason I brought up trading Frolov at the deadline was because of your insistence on only moving him for something that would take the team "a step forward" - something you still haven't clarified (and no, "a step forward is just that" isn't clarification). I assumed that, if extension negotiations have reached an impasse, a deadline trade would be Lombardi's only opportunity to move Frolov for anything remotely resembling a valuable asset.

I've been speaking in hypotheticals for three or four posts now regarding Frolov leaving the team. Again, I like Frolov. I hope he spends the rest of his 25-30 goal, 60 point career in LA. But my question still stands: if Frolov has to be moved, what would constitute a step forward? How, when, and for what do you propose Frolov is traded that would be, in your eyes, a step forward?

Edit: By the way, a bunch of subjective quotes from the player in question and a coach everyone assumed was, at his best, mildly retarded, are not "facts."

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07-17-2009, 01:02 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
Okay, first of all, I'm obviously arguing with an extremely hostile person that has an agenda, so I really don't see this going anywhere. Secondly, I understand Frolov is your favorite player. You've gone to great lengths (and text) to get that point across. But I stopped taking your post seriously when you started to convince yourself that you would take Frolov over Kovalchuk. I'm not even sure your last paragraph is English.


Edit: By the way, a bunch of subjective quotes from the player in question and a coach everyone assumed was, at his best, mildly retarded, are not "facts."
Wow, such hostility.

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07-17-2009, 01:08 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Goallum View Post
Wow, such hostility.
yeah... I'M the "hostile" one.

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07-17-2009, 01:19 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
yeah... I'M the "hostile" one.
Watch out Wabwat of he will put you on his ignore listed then constantly whine when you are quoted.

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07-17-2009, 01:37 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
yeah... I'M the "hostile" one.
I believe the claim was "extremely" hostile.

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Old
07-17-2009, 02:54 PM
  #108
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Alright, so apparently you can't answer my question.

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07-17-2009, 02:55 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
Okay, first of all, I'm obviously arguing with an extremely hostile person that has an agenda,
Hang on...what?

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07-17-2009, 03:31 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Hang on...what?
His post seemed hostile.

I'm going on very little sleep today. I may just be crazy.

I like Frolov, though.

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07-17-2009, 03:55 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
His post seemed hostile.

I'm going on very little sleep today. I may just be crazy.

I like Frolov, though.
Go take a nap then Mr Grumpy pants

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07-17-2009, 04:11 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
I've been speaking in hypotheticals for three or four posts now regarding Frolov leaving the team. Again, I like Frolov. I hope he spends the rest of his 25-30 goal, 60 point career in LA. But my question still stands: if Frolov has to be moved, what would constitute a step forward? How, when, and for what do you propose Frolov is traded that would be, in your eyes, a step forward?
I think he already answered your question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
a step forward means just that. something, be it an improvement at ANY position. a guy like Scott Hartnell for instance is not only NOT an improvement, but given today's roster, going forward it is completely redundant. THAT is what you call a lateral move.

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07-17-2009, 06:18 PM
  #113
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I think what's really being thrown around by the management is the cap hit, and the uncertainty in the total cap going forward in the next two years especially. I honestly think they want to Keep Fro around for a long time, but are kicking the tires with different cap hits and scenarios before giving him any serious offers. They're not just signing guys and dealing with it later (like Chicago, Philly, NYR, etc.), but being extremely meticulous and careful in their dealings, but I honestly feel they want to keep him around for a long time.

I'm wiffle waffling on this, because I don't know, and they'll never say for sure. It is frustrating though. I hope by mid season he's locked up.

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