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Victoria Salmon Kings ECHL

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08-24-2004, 08:05 AM
  #51
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They want to see the exciting young prospects who will go on to be NHL stars.
Which you're seeing more and more in the ECHL. Ruslan Fedotenko, Alex Auld, David Aebischer, Tomas Vokoun, Steve Poapst, and Sean Pronger as NHL stars. All were once "exciting young prospects" playing in the ECHL.

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08-25-2004, 01:23 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto
Which you're seeing more and more in the ECHL. Ruslan Fedotenko, Alex Auld, David Aebischer, Tomas Vokoun, Steve Poapst, and Sean Pronger as NHL stars. All were once "exciting young prospects" playing in the ECHL.
None of those players are NHL stars. Auld, Vokoun and Aebischer have the potential. They are all goaltenders, who always take longer to develop than players.

Poapst and S.Pronger are 4th line NHL players. Fedotenko is 2nd-3rd line material. He's not a star either.

When I say NHL stars, I mean guys who will dominate the game in the NHL...not the players who will spend their career bouncing between the NHL and AHL.


Just look at the top NHL talent that comes out of the CHL. Why would any sane hockey fan choose the ECHL over that?


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08-25-2004, 03:14 AM
  #53
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If Victoria fans didn't want the team then why did the city go ahead with it?

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08-25-2004, 03:55 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by golfmade
If Victoria fans didn't want the team then why did the city go ahead with it?
The city approved building the new 7,500-seat arena because when Toigo sold the Tri City Americans, the expansion franchise he was getting was supposed to go to Victoria (if I remember correctly). Vancouver got the franchise instead. I also seem to recall Tri City moving to Victoria as possibly being part of that, but it was a long time ago and I don't quite remember.

The Salsa (BCHL) could never fill a 7,500-seat arena (they were getting their own new 2,300-seat arena anyway), so a tenant for the new building was needed. When the only option left was ECHL, what choice did Victoria have?

Victoria built the big new arena for the WHL.

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08-26-2004, 08:32 AM
  #55
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When the only option left was ECHL, what choice did Victoria have?
Oh, I don't know - the FHL, oh he who is ignorant to minor league hockey?

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08-26-2004, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto
Oh, I don't know - the FHL, oh he who is ignorant to minor league hockey?
Don't give me the ignorance crap. You need to realize that "minor league hockey" does not do well in Canada. Aside from the NHL, the CHL is by far the most popular league in the country.

Look at AHL teams in Canada. With the exception of St.John's (who are moving to Toronto next season), the AHL draws horrible. The reason the Maple Leafs are moving St.John's is because they have no maritime opponents left. The AHL used to have teams in Cape Breton, Fredericton and Saint John. Look at Winnipeg...they desperately want to get rid of the Moose in favour of a WHL team. This season, Edmonton and Toronto will have their AHL affiliates playing in the same building, and those games will be attended by those who can't afford to attend the NHL games.

Face it. In Canada, if it's not the NHL, it's junior hockey. People here would simply rather see up-and-coming superstars than guys who couldn't make it after junior.

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08-26-2004, 03:05 PM
  #57
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Or maybe juniors is more popular in Canada because the majority of the players are CANADIAN? The minor's have a more diverse range of players, a lot of Americans out of college are in the ECHL.

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08-26-2004, 11:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MiniMe7219
Or maybe juniors is more popular in Canada because the majority of the players are CANADIAN? The minor's have a more diverse range of players, a lot of Americans out of college are in the ECHL.
That has something to do with it, but not as much as the CHL allowing its fans to see more future NHL superstars than any other league can. Not even the NCAA produces as many bonafide NHL stars as the CHL.

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08-27-2004, 12:57 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
That has something to do with it, but not as much as the CHL allowing its fans to see more future NHL superstars than any other league can. Not even the NCAA produces as many bonafide NHL stars as the CHL.
You can't prove that... and even if it is higher in numbers, that's because the CHL has been around longer then the ECHL, and just recently, as garnetpalmetto said, has the ECHL been more focused to develop better hockey players.

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08-27-2004, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MiniMe7219
You can't prove that... and even if it is higher in numbers, that's because the CHL has been around longer then the ECHL, and just recently, as garnetpalmetto said, has the ECHL been more focused to develop better hockey players.
It's not because the CHL has been around longer, it is because the CHL's purpose is to develop 16-20 year-olds for the NHL. The ECHL's purpose is for those who don't succeed in junior and college hockey to have a place to play in a last-gasp attempt to have a successful career. The youngest guys you see in the ECHL are the 19-20 year-olds who get cut from junior teams.

Ask anybody in Winnipeg why they would rather have a WHL team than an AHL team. It's the same reason why people in Victoria would much rather see the WHL than the ECHL.

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08-27-2004, 12:01 PM
  #61
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it is because the CHL's purpose is to develop 16-20 year-olds for the NHL.
So if the CHL is generating enough rejects that there's enough to populate an entire league as you claim, isn't it failing in it's purpose?

Look, I realize that anything non-Canadian is probably "FOREIGN" and "EVIL" to you. Of course truely gifted players aren't going to be in the ECHL. Again (uh oh, I'm about to bring in something non-Canadian, so watch out) it's like the sport with the most developed minor league structure, baseball. If you have a player in college who's a true standout, the odds are pretty good he may either A) Skip the minors altogether or B) Have a very accelerated trip through the minors, skipping over some levels entirely. But those genuinely gifted players are few. In the hockey world these are the franchise-playing top liners. The majority of players need more dvelopment. While not having that natural gift they're still talented enough to one day play th egame at the major league level. And sometimes these players have the ability to transcend all expectations and become that top-line player whose work ethic makes him a player any team would have. You laugh at Ruslan Fedotenko being a former ECHLer, but that former ECHLer won Game 7 for the Bolts. You call ECHLers failures, yet in 16 years, 255 players have gone on to the NHL. And as much as it hurts you to recognize it, they aren't fill-ins and this year, one of them was even a finalist for the Calder Trophy. Using the baseball analogy, they may not be a Nomar and they may never be a Nomar, but they very well could be a Jack Wilson.

THAT's the point of the ECHL. Not to give career minor leaguers a last chance - that's what the SPHL, FHL, and some of the lesser overseas leagues are for, considering the ECHL's now tougher rules on veterans - but to give players with decent potential the ability to make it. Are you going to see the next Gretzky in the ECHL? In all honesty, probably not. But then again, how many teams in the CHL can honestly claim to have the next Gretzky?

Finally, I point to HollyG's article regarding the 2003-04 ECHL to NHL graduates:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...readed&order=0

Quote:
Taking graduates from previous years into account as well, a total of 115 ECHL players played in the NHL in 2003-04, including 31 goaltenders. There were 53 former ECHL players on NHL opening-day rosters, and there was a former ECHL player on each of the 30 teams in the NHL in 2003-04.

Being a developmental league means that the ECHL has a focus on young, upcoming players, ensuring that the league continues as a home for players with aspirations of furthering their professional careers, rather than a place for players in the twilight their careers. As such, each team is restricted to four veteran players, defined as an individual who has played 288 regular season games of professional hockey.

With affiliations with 21 of the 30 NHL teams last year and a similar number expected this season, the number of graduates to the NHL seems likely to remain at a similar level in 2004-05, assuming that the parent league plays a full season.

This steady increase in graduations of ECHL players no doubt reflects the growing confidence of NHL organizations in the talent that is developing in the league. As more big-name NHL players emerge from the ECHL, the league will continue to gain recognition.
Your own myopic view aside I know QUITE a few people in Victoria excited to have the ECHL back and when asked if they'd rather have a WHL team their response was usually something akin to "Well, I didn't know anything about the E going into it so I had my doubts. But as I learned more about the league, I'm getting excited." YOU may wish the Salmon Kings to fail, but we don't always get what we wish. If I were you, I'd prepare myself for that possibility.

Edit: added link per copyright regulations


Last edited by Holly Gunning: 08-27-2004 at 12:09 PM.
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08-30-2004, 12:18 PM
  #62
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If I may jump into the debate:

First off I'll point out that I agree that the CHL is more appealing than the ECHL or minor league hockey altogether to the majority of Canadians. I believe the reason behind this is as Van pointed out, people here want the NHL and if that is not an option they prefer watching players who have a higher chance of getting to it.

I also think the ECHL has its place. It is the top AA league and is slowly redefining itself to be a more developmental league. Yet the point that the CHL has produced more NHL players than the ECHL because of its 20 year head start is meaningless. Rather one should look at any given current CHL roster and any given current ECHL roster and compare the number of "future NHLers" (used loosely to describe players who hockey experts expect to play in the NHL someday). It is clear that the CHL holds more overall.

Garnet's rebuttal that the CHL is failing because the league produces enough players to fill a minor league is also a fallacy. There are enough CHL no goods to fill the most part to the ECHL, some CenHL, a little UHL and surprisingly some Cdn University teams. But this doesn't mean anything towards whether the people in Victoria or Canada as a general want ECHL or CHL. The top talent of the CHL is greater than the top talent of the ECHL and will likely be that way for many years to come.

I took a look at the all-time ECHL's NHL alumni page and if one were to create an "all-star" team, I mean full 23 man roster, one would come up with a team with decent goaltending and perhaps an NHL calibre 1st and possibly 2nd line and then AHL calibre 3rd and 4th lines.

I think goaltenders are not quite useful for our debate because if a team has 5 goalies signed to contract 1 of them will be in the ECHL in all likelihood. Because most teams have their 2 set NHLers a AHL vet and an AHL prospect goalie meaning if there is another goaltending prospect of 20yrs + he will play in the ECHL.

With positional players we see the real meat of the debate. I'm not going to spend my time conceiving that all-star team myself but Fedotenko, Boguniecki, Boughner, Fedoruk, Oliwa, Tyson Nash and a few others jump out as the best alumni in the ECHL's lifetime. Now this is where the CHL blows the ECHL away. Look at the last 5 years alone and the players that have graduated to from the CHL to the NHL are far better. No one can deny that. It is not just because there are more CHL teams. The ECHL even has a greater pool of players to choose from than the CHL teams do. CHL teams can only have 2 imported players. And the ECHL teams have access in one way or another to every player that goes thru the CHL and more.

Furthermore if one takes that ECHL alumni all-star team and removes any players who did not play an entire season worth of games in the ECHL it gets all the more weaker. Now fill in that roster with other alumni and then again remove all players who did not play at least half a season in the NHL. That team starts to look pretty ordinary. CHL fans are guaranteed to see their top players for at least a full season usually three.

CHL fans get to see there top players develop and then lose them to the NHL, which is the point of the league. ECHL fans get to see the absolute cream of the crop players play a few games and move on to the NHL and the top players move on to the AHL. This happens in mid-season most the time. Fedotenko played only 8 games, even Fedoruk only played 18 ECHL games. So really ECHL fans aren't actually getting to watch their stars develop, they merely get a glimpse.

Overall I think this is why Canadians prefer the CHL to minor hockey. I'm sure Victorians are happy to have the Salmon Kings because it is better than no team at all (I'm rudely ignoring the Salsa). However they would prefer the WHL in all likelihood given the option of the two.

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10-27-2004, 09:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto
So if the CHL is generating enough rejects that there's enough to populate an entire league as you claim, isn't it failing in it's purpose?

Look, I realize that anything non-Canadian is probably "FOREIGN" and "EVIL" to you. Of course truely gifted players aren't going to be in the ECHL. Again (uh oh, I'm about to bring in something non-Canadian, so watch out) it's like the sport with the most developed minor league structure, baseball. If you have a player in college who's a true standout, the odds are pretty good he may either A) Skip the minors altogether or B) Have a very accelerated trip through the minors, skipping over some levels entirely. But those genuinely gifted players are few. In the hockey world these are the franchise-playing top liners. The majority of players need more dvelopment. While not having that natural gift they're still talented enough to one day play th egame at the major league level. And sometimes these players have the ability to transcend all expectations and become that top-line player whose work ethic makes him a player any team would have. You laugh at Ruslan Fedotenko being a former ECHLer, but that former ECHLer won Game 7 for the Bolts. You call ECHLers failures, yet in 16 years, 255 players have gone on to the NHL. And as much as it hurts you to recognize it, they aren't fill-ins and this year, one of them was even a finalist for the Calder Trophy. Using the baseball analogy, they may not be a Nomar and they may never be a Nomar, but they very well could be a Jack Wilson.

THAT's the point of the ECHL. Not to give career minor leaguers a last chance - that's what the SPHL, FHL, and some of the lesser overseas leagues are for, considering the ECHL's now tougher rules on veterans - but to give players with decent potential the ability to make it. Are you going to see the next Gretzky in the ECHL? In all honesty, probably not. But then again, how many teams in the CHL can honestly claim to have the next Gretzky?

Finally, I point to HollyG's article regarding the 2003-04 ECHL to NHL graduates:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...readed&order=0



Your own myopic view aside I know QUITE a few people in Victoria excited to have the ECHL back and when asked if they'd rather have a WHL team their response was usually something akin to "Well, I didn't know anything about the E going into it so I had my doubts. But as I learned more about the league, I'm getting excited." YOU may wish the Salmon Kings to fail, but we don't always get what we wish. If I were you, I'd prepare myself for that possibility.

Edit: added link per copyright regulations

Non Canadian is foreign and evil? Give your head a shake. That sounds really funny coming from an American.

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10-28-2004, 10:32 AM
  #64
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1) I came here to discuss hockey, not the political stereotypes of Americans that have been perpetuated by the fouled-up policies of this administration

2) That being said, just because I happened to have been born in the United States hardly means I'm some xenophobic redneck who proudly states that he's never applied for a passport. If you think so, you've sorely missed the mark.

3) In regards to my comment, I have repeatedly seen users not only here but on other boards dismiss the ECHL as some barely evolved beer league for the simple reason that it didn't originate in Canada.

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10-28-2004, 12:31 PM
  #65
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is rivalries. As a person living in Victoria, I drool over the thought of a WHL team in town. A large part of this is obviously the superior (although often undeveloped) talent. However, just thinking of the rivalries we would develop with teams such as Vancouver, Seattle, Kelowna, etc. really puts the WHL head and shoulders over the ECHL for Victoria. I don't know too many people around here that are going to get excited for a Victoria/Fresno or Victoria/Bakersfield matchup.

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10-28-2004, 01:09 PM
  #66
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you got it cds. This business that we dont like echl because its american is really stupid. What we do like is good hockey. Who cares where it comes from. Nobody said we wouldn't give the ECHL a shot. I can say that I will attend some games for sure because I am a hockey fan. To put things in perspective...At training camp they had a local fireman who hasn't played in a few years. I think they only had 17 players at camp. I'll chalk this up to growing pains and hope things improve.

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