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Hudler contract talk; UPD: Agent won't negotiate a deal, Wings will look for UFA

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Old
07-24-2009, 10:10 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Only because the Filppulites are still at it...

This is the year [oh no, flashback to that horrible commercial...] Filppula has to step up. Let's see if he does. However-- if he's on Z or Dats' wing the entire time.... THEN I'll just point out that you could put me on their wing and I'd get 20 goals by standing there.......
So basically...he can't win. Cool.

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07-24-2009, 10:34 PM
  #877
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So basically...he can't win. Cool.
Yeah. Unless Filppula produces with Kirk Maltby and Mark Mowers as his wingers it'll always be his linemates doing all the work and Filppula reaping the benefits.

I gotta say, the hyperbole is the theme around here.

Any reason why the same isn't applied to Cleary?

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07-24-2009, 10:46 PM
  #878
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Yeah. Unless Filppula produces with Kirk Maltby and Mark Mowers as his wingers it'll always be his linemates doing all the work and Filppula reaping the benefits.

I gotta say, the hyperbole is the theme around here.

Any reason why the same isn't applied to Cleary?
It is... Cleary was on his way to a 30 G season before Sammy crushed his jaw. Looking back on it, it was probably intentional.....

Both players' actual salaries will be $2.5 MM this coming year, but Cleary's cap hit is $2.8 and Flip's is $3 MM. Cleary will make $3 MM for the next three season, while Fil gets a healthy bump to $3.5 MM for 3 yrs.

I am not convinced of Fil's offensive prowess just yet. I want him to prove me wrong, because that will be really great for the Wings. It's just that right now he seems more like a Pahlsson type player than a Zetterberg one.

@Filppula. It's not that he can't win, but to be considered better than Cleary or your typical forward, he needs to be the guy that gets the players around him to elevate their games. It seems he's been the beneficiary thus far of veteran, or even elite talent, if we're talking Dats, Z, Hossa, and even Franzen (although he's a slight notch below these guys). If he's just a good shutdown forward, who can notch 15-20 or so G himself, that's not worth $3.5 MM per year. If he centers a second line (and I'm not convinced Babs wants to do that), then he has to really find some more offensive flair. If he's just a winger for Dats or Z, well, we're not talking about a team's second center any more, but a reasonable winger who benefits from playing with Dats or Z.

I'm not really even that down on Fil, just not as satisfied with some of the more recent Holland valuations (including Hudler at $3 MM...).

 
Old
07-24-2009, 10:52 PM
  #879
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I really don't feel like getting into something where we end up bashing Filppula or Cleary but Cleary doesn't elevate his linemates games. He's not that type of player nor is he paid like one.

Cleary produces when he has great playmakers feeding him the puck. Lang started the trend and helped Cleary regain a ton of his confidence, Datsyuk and Zetterberg have continued the trend. Cleary is also much older than Filppula and has years of maturity as a hockey player that Filppula doesn't have yet.

Filppula isn't anywhere close as good as Datsyuk or Z except in one department, he's the only other player besides the big boys who can effectively play both the center and winger position effectively. I like him a little better as a center because he's very good at faceoffs but I think on Datsyuk or Z's wing through the season his confidence will go up big time since he's not getting bumped around like crazy.

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07-24-2009, 11:00 PM
  #880
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I really don't feel like getting into something where we end up bashing Filppula or Cleary but Cleary doesn't elevate his linemates games. He's not that type of player nor is he paid like one.

Cleary produces when he has great playmakers feeding him the puck. Lang started the trend and helped Cleary regain a ton of his confidence, Datsyuk and Zetterberg have continued the trend. Cleary is also much older than Filppula and has years of maturity as a hockey player that Filppula doesn't have yet.

Filppula isn't anywhere close as good as Datsyuk or Z except in one department, he's the only other player besides the big boys who can effectively play both the center and winger position effectively. I like him a little better as a center because he's very good at faceoffs but I think on Datsyuk or Z's wing through the season his confidence will go up big time since he's not getting bumped around like crazy.

I actually agree with all of this, and will just repeat that realistically, this is the year Filppula can set himself apart. He was young and learning, all legit reasons for where he is right now... basically a player who was worth $1.5-2 MM (max). We all know that Holland is counting on him becoming a guy that is worth $4-5 MM.... that would be the only reason to overpay for those RFA years and take on a $3 MM cap hit for a kid who isn't there yet.

Now with all the voids left on the scoring side, the list of whom the team turns to goes like: Dats, Z, Franzen...Filppula...Homer (assuming he's still welded to Datsyuk)...Cleary... and then some rookies.

 
Old
07-25-2009, 01:32 AM
  #881
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... and both Sammy and Hudler did at least half of their damage on the PP...
Now I know you don't look at any kinds of facts before you post. If you did, you'd know that the majority of Hudler's goals came at EVEN STRENGTH.

It's been said again and again, and you seem to keep ignoring that fact.

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07-25-2009, 08:50 AM
  #882
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Now I know you don't look at any kinds of facts before you post. If you did, you'd know that the majority of Hudler's goals came at EVEN STRENGTH.
Now I know that you don't actually read a post of mine carefully before you react to it, Menace. If you did, you'd know that I said production specifically, as opposed to goals specifically, because I was aware of just the fact you seem to think I was not.

Hudler had 17 ES goals last year. Guys with what can be charitably described as 'atrocious offsensive skills' like Draper or Maltby had 7 and 5 respectively, and neither guy had either the linemates or the ES IT of Hudler.

Keeping that in mind, do you really think it's going to be sooooooooooo haaaaarrrrrdddddd to find someone who can score an amazing 12 or so ES goals in a year? Really? Filppula was incredibly tenative all year long and played the vast majority of his ES IT with the same middle 6 guys Hudler played with and scored 11 ES goals.



This is the best offseason ever.

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07-25-2009, 08:55 AM
  #883
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Now I know that you don't actually read a post of mine carefully before you react to it, Menace. If you did, you'd know that I said production specifically, as opposed to goals specifically, because I was aware of just the fact you seem to think I was not.

Hudler had 17 ES goals last year. Guys with what can be charitably described as 'atrocious offsensive skills' like Draper or Maltby had 7 and 5 respectively, and neither guy had either the linemates or the ES IT of Hudler.

Keeping that in mind, do you really think it's going to be sooooooooooo haaaaarrrrrdddddd to find someone who can score an amazing 12 or so ES goals in a year? Really? Filppula was incredibly tenative all year long and played the vast majority of his ES IT with the same middle 6 guys Hudler played with and scored 11 ES goals.



This is the best offseason ever.
Well, me knowing you, I knew you were saying production and not goal scoring. We've had several forwards, well pretty much everyone not named Draper, Maltby, and Kopecky receive more ES IT than Hudler. You keep trying to obfuscate on the fact that Hudler scores at a higher rate at ES than most forwards on this team. All the guys you mentioned score LESS.... a whole let less while getting 50% or more ES IT than Hudler......

 
Old
07-25-2009, 09:30 AM
  #884
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Well, me knowing you, I knew you were saying production and not goal scoring. We've had several forwards, well pretty much everyone not named Draper, Maltby, and Kopecky receive more ES IT than Hudler. You keep trying to obfuscate on the fact that Hudler scores at a higher rate at ES than most forwards on this team. All the guys you mentioned score LESS.... a whole let less while getting 50% or more ES IT than Hudler......
No, I'm really not. It is rather enjoyable to keep watching you and others attempt to pretend that I give Hudler no credit for being good at anything though. What I am saying is that if Detroit replaces 10 or so of Hudler 17 ES goals, and if horrific offensive players like Draper can score 7 given worse linemates and less ES IT I can't possibly imagine how this would be hard... 5-7 ES goals lost over 82 games is something that people are going to wail about? Really?

That's the part which cracks me up.

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07-25-2009, 09:43 AM
  #885
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No, I'm really not. It is rather enjoyable to keep watching you and others attempt to pretend that I give Hudler no credit for being good at anything though. What I am saying is that if Detroit replaces 10 or so of Hudler 17 ES goals, and if horrific offensive players like Draper can score 7 given worse linemates and less ES IT I can't possibly imagine how this would be hard... 5-7 ES goals lost over 82 games is something that people are going to wail about? Really?

That's the part which cracks me up.
I think I've lost sight of what your position is in regards to Hudler. I've said that I believe both he and Filppula would be overpaid once we're talking about $3 MM or more, cap hit or actual. Each player however has his strengths and weaknesses, and Filppula plays a more complete, however somewhat anemic offensive game. Hudler gets the team results. His contribution creating a void seems to only be an issue in a scenario where the team also lost 60 G from the roster by losing two other forwards. If Holland had managed to keep any of the two out of the three, no one would really be worrying. Heck, even having kept Hossa out of the three might prevent this type of discussion.

Yet, the more important point is that younger/better players had to be lost at all, for whatever reason(s). Simply, it's just unfortunate and really bad timing. (E.g., just look up Draper's adjusted Corsi numbers for this past season. He's on the worst of the NHL list.)

It should be much harder to score at even strength than on the PP. That's why smart teams try to avoid penalties, and get more PP's. You, of course, know this.... I'm placing a higher value on a player that can score at even strength than one who can contribute the same number on the PP. Normally, given that a player's role is the same on a PP unit as it would be on the PP, you'd see a 25-30% split of PP goals vs their ES contribution. For various reasons, including that the Wings efficiency was much higher this year, we've had players approach nearly a 50-50 split. That's not always going to happen though. If it's up to me to allocate the money, I'm still going to spend it on the ES contributions firstly, and hope the same player can only be better on the PP. Hudler played center on the PP, and wing at ES. When he's required to score, he does it much better than the majority of Wings forwards. Not that hard to give him credit where it's due.

Yet, he's gone. Not sure why we're still arguing about him.

 
Old
07-25-2009, 09:46 AM
  #886
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I dont so much mind Draper and Maltby. I mind having draper and maltby on the team and still one of the worst PKs in the league.

They can have their spot and their money but out PK has got to be solid to justify their position.

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07-25-2009, 10:47 AM
  #887
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Stuff...
That's what I get for trying to argue something when I'm half-drunk and half-asleep...

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Yet, he's gone. Not sure why we're still arguing about him.
You're the ubermod, lock it up.

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07-25-2009, 11:27 AM
  #888
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I dont so much mind Draper and Maltby. I mind having draper and maltby on the team and still one of the worst PKs in the league.

They can have their spot and their money but out PK has got to be solid to justify their position.
Frankly I put at least 75% of the PK problems last season squarely on Osgood's shoulders. He was downright dreadful in the regular season and he still didn't really make the big PK save in the playoffs. Now the defense had their own problems as well, but Osgood was probably our worst PK player last year.

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07-25-2009, 01:38 PM
  #889
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Frankly I put at least 75% of the PK problems last season squarely on Osgood's shoulders. He was downright dreadful in the regular season and he still didn't really make the big PK save in the playoffs. Now the defense had their own problems as well, but Osgood was probably our worst PK player last year.
He was certainly part of it. Still I see no reason why Filp, Zets, Dats, franzen all pk more than draper and maltby... Draper gets a bit extra for the draws ofc.

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07-25-2009, 01:47 PM
  #890
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That's what I get for trying to argue something when I'm half-drunk and half-asleep...



You're the ubermod, lock it up.
Yeah, I'm the optimist who just hopes that people will realize he's gone and move on to another thread.....

 
Old
07-25-2009, 01:48 PM
  #891
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Yeah, I'm the optimist who just hopes that people will realize he's gone and move on to another thread.....
I was right about the rampant hyperbole's thats getting thrown around.

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07-25-2009, 01:51 PM
  #892
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I will be so incredibly happy when this thread is buried in back pages.

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Old
07-25-2009, 02:31 PM
  #893
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I was right about the rampant hyperbole's thats getting thrown around.



Okay, let's kill it.

If there's anything new about arbitration, that go in a new, but probably short-lived thread.

Dog days of summer are officially here.

 
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