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Vaananen vs Tollefsen

View Poll Results: Vaananen vs Tollefsen
Tollefsen. 28 41.18%
Vaananen. 32 47.06%
Both have the same skill. 8 11.76%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-28-2009, 12:41 PM
  #1
Kaktus*
 
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Vaananen vs Tollefsen

If Flyers sign Tollefsen.. Who do you think is a better player?

Ole-Kristian Tollefsen. Ht: 6-2 Wt: 211 Age: 25
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=3076
Defensive defenseman. Loves to lay on the body and displays a wealth of toughness and aggression along the blueline. Has the makings of a sound defensive defenseman.
Needs to improve his all-around skills, since he's below average with the puck.

Ossi Vaananen. Ht: 6-4 Wt: 215 Age:28
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=1766
Defensive defenseman. Has NHL size. Loves to bang bodies. Moves the puck efficiently and is defensively responsible. Needs more work on his coordination and lateral mobility.

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Old
07-28-2009, 12:44 PM
  #2
LEIFey
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if i had to choose, i'd pick vaananen, but i dunno if the flyers would try him again after waiving him. they are both solid character players who work hard and play tough. depending on price, either would be a great boost to our bottom pairing.

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07-28-2009, 12:44 PM
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IrishSniper87
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I'd honestly take both of them as long as we make Jones go poof.

Coburn-Timonen
Pronger-Parent
Carle-Vaananen
Tollefson

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07-28-2009, 12:45 PM
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Ossi... From what Jacket fans were saying, OKT is terrible at moving the puck. At least Ossi could get the puck out of the defensive zone.

Also OKT is broken more then half the time, so....

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Old
07-28-2009, 12:47 PM
  #5
Opus
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It must be summer.

What's next -- Carcillo or Upshall?


...followed by -- Biron or Emery?




*sigh*

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07-28-2009, 12:54 PM
  #6
GoneFullHextall
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people are honestly worried about Tollefsen moving the puck out of the defensive zone? They have 5 other guys who can worry about that on the blueline.

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07-28-2009, 12:57 PM
  #7
BillyShoe1721
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I'd take Ossi, little bit of a more complete player.

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07-28-2009, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
It must be summer.

What's next -- Carcillo or Upshall?


...followed by -- Biron or Emery?





*sigh*
You'll do those two next, if you like lol

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07-28-2009, 01:00 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I'd honestly take both of them as long as we make Jones go poof.

Coburn-Timonen
Pronger-Parent
Carle-Vaananen
Tollefson
***** inspiring.

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Old
07-28-2009, 01:03 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
people are honestly worried about Tollefsen moving the puck out of the defensive zone? They have 5 other guys who can worry about that on the blueline.
Seriously....Vaananen is a much better defensive player than OKT, but OKT is nasty....He is a cheaper, younger version of Gauthier

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***** inspiring.
Yeah, other than the fact we have a third paring guy making $3.5 million

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07-28-2009, 01:03 PM
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Gert B Frobe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
If Flyers sign Tollefsen.. Who do you think is a better player?

Ole-Kristian Tollefsen. Ht: 6-2 Wt: 211 Age: 25
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=3076
Defensive defenseman. Loves to lay on the body and displays a wealth of toughness and aggression along the blueline. Has the makings of a sound defensive defenseman.
Needs to improve his all-around skills, since he's below average with the puck.

Ossi Vaananen. Ht: 6-4 Wt: 215 Age:28
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=1766
Defensive defenseman. Has NHL size. Loves to bang bodies. Moves the puck efficiently and is defensively responsible. Needs more work on his coordination and lateral mobility.
Not sure about this part of Vaananen's bio... From what I've heard Tollefsen is much more physical. We have plenty of puck movers for the 3rd pairing.

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07-28-2009, 01:09 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
people are honestly worried about Tollefsen moving the puck out of the defensive zone? They have 5 other guys who can worry about that on the blueline.
That's such a silly thing to say. Yeah, when Tollefson is stuck behind his own net with the puck, Pronger can just teleport out there from the bench and move the puck up the ice for him. And it's not like playing him with a quality puckmover would make everything ok either. Hockey's not that simple.

While I like the idea of having balanced pairings...one with more of a puckmover, and one with more of a stay-at-home type...in no way shape or form does that assure that it will be no problem for that pairing to move the puck up the ice. All defensemen need to be good two-way players to a certain extent if they are playing in the NHL. If some guy is a nightmare with the puck on his stick, that becomes a problem no matter how good of a puckmover he has playing next to him. It was part of the problem with Ossi, it was part of the problem with Kukkonen, with Smith, with Hatcher, and with countless other defenseman who haven't quite been able to cut it in the NHL.

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07-28-2009, 01:10 PM
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I flipped a coin and it came up Toll so I was all prepared to vote for him untill I saw there was a "tie" option. Honestly, who cares, neither is going to be the "make or break" player on our blue line. Unless either Jones or Carle is traded or we have serious injuries, neither will/would see much ice time for the Flyers this year. Also, if we DO have a serious long term injury to one of our dmen I think Marshall has a real shot of getting called up to play as the 6th dmen over us using either of these 2 guys. We have 6 guys slated for the top 6 who are CLEARLY better than either of these 2 and Marshall who should be ready for the NHL next year who will ALSO be better than either of these 2 even as a rookie. Both would be nothing more than a 7th dmen on a contending team and that what we are and what they are to our team. We have bigger concerns right now like finding another top 9 scoring winger and improving on faceoffs. who is our #7 dman isn't that big of a concern.

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07-28-2009, 01:15 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
That's such a silly thing to say. Yeah, when Tollefson is stuck behind his own net with the puck, Pronger can just teleport out there from the bench and move the puck up the ice for him. And it's not like playing him with a quality puckmover would make everything ok either. Hockey's not that simple.

While I like the idea of having balanced pairings...one with more of a puckmover, and one with more of a stay-at-home type...in no way shape or form does that assure that it will be no problem for that pairing to move the puck up the ice. All defensemen need to be good two-way players to a certain extent if they are playing in the NHL. If some guy is a nightmare with the puck on his stick, that becomes a problem no matter how good of a puckmover he has playing next to him.
Umm, a guy who is NOT a puck moving dman doesn't sit behind the net with the puck EVER. He dishes it to someone who is better than him and if neither are really a puck mover themselves (say if he were paired with Parent) then they simply wait for a forward to come back and pick up the puck and carry it out of the zone for them. Honestly, this happens so many tmes in a game I can't believe this is actually a concern of some. So Tol can't skate the pck out of our zone, who cares. there are more dmen inthe NHL who CAN'T do it very well than there are who actually CAN do it well. Should all the dmen who can't skate the pck or make a tape-to-tape pass out of the zone be kiced out of the NHL?

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07-28-2009, 01:17 PM
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Voted Tollefson. If you're pairing with Carle or Jones you need someone with a little snarl and Ossi doesn't fit that bill.

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07-28-2009, 01:17 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
That's such a silly thing to say. Yeah, when Tollefson is stuck behind his own net with the puck, Pronger can just teleport out there from the bench and move the puck up the ice for him. And it's not like playing him with a quality puckmover would make everything ok either. Hockey's not that simple.

While I like the idea of having balanced pairings...one with more of a puckmover, and one with more of a stay-at-home type...in no way shape or form does that assure that it will be no problem for that pairing to move the puck up the ice. All defensemen need to be good two-way players to a certain extent if they are playing in the NHL. If some guy is a nightmare with the puck on his stick, that becomes a problem no matter how good of a puckmover he has playing next to him.

you are not always going to get 6 "perfect" defenseman. Yeah sure it would be nice to have 6 guys that can move the puck out of the defensive zone but you are not always going to get that.
Pronger,Tinonen,Coburn and even Jones can handle the puck.
Parent is more of a defensive defenseman and how often is he asked to bring the puck out? We have the guys who can do it. Your 7th defenseman isnt going to be perfect.

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07-28-2009, 01:23 PM
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For the type of player he is, I'd rather have Tollefsen.

Because Tollefsen has had chronic injury problems, I'd rather have Ossi.

Either way, it's a decision regarding who becomes a 7th defenseman, so either guy would be fine.

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07-28-2009, 01:31 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Umm, a guy who is NOT a puck moving dman doesn't sit behind the net with the puck EVER. He dishes it to someone who is better than him and if neither are really a puck mover themselves (say if he were paired with Parent) then they simply wait for a forward to come back and pick up the puck and carry it out of the zone for them. Honestly, this happens so many tmes in a game I can't believe this is actually a concern of some. So Tol can't skate the pck out of our zone, who cares. there are more dmen inthe NHL who CAN'T do it very well than there are who actually CAN do it well.
I love arguments like this...breaking the game of hockey down into this black and white paint-by-numbers BS. Obviously, a d-man who is less skilled with the puck on his stick will make an effort to leave the puck carrying to those who are more skilled at it. HOWEVER, it's just not that easy. The nature of the game, and the speed and skill with which it is played at in the NHL...it makes d-men that are a nightmare with the puck on their stick...well, a ****ing nightmare. All it takes is one little mistake for the puck to wind up in your net. And when Tollefson is pinned by the forecheck, and tries to "dish it to someone who is better than him"...well, there's about a billion different ways that can go wrong...and many of those ways have been exemplified in the play of Vaananen, Kukkonen, Alberts, Smith, Jones at times, Parent sometimes...it happens to everyone. And for the guys who really stink with the puck, it happens a lot more often....sometimes so often that they can't hold down a job in the NHL, i.e. Kukkonen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Should all the dmen who can't skate the pck or make a tape-to-tape pass out of the zone be kiced out of the NHL?
A lot of them are for largely that reason. It depends on just how bad you are at it, and how good you are at other aspects of the game.

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07-28-2009, 01:34 PM
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So you are saying that you know him and his play so well that he's so bad that he shouldn't even be playing in the AHL, is that right???

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07-28-2009, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
It must be summer.

What's next -- Carcillo or Upshall?


...followed by -- Biron or Emery?




*sigh*
Cote or Gratton....


Lupul or Knuble

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07-28-2009, 01:44 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
you are not always going to get 6 "perfect" defenseman. Yeah sure it would be nice to have 6 guys that can move the puck out of the defensive zone but you are not always going to get that.
Pronger,Tinonen,Coburn and even Jones can handle the puck.
Right, and Parent isn't the worst at it either. But I don't care if you have 5 Lidstroms or Neidermayers, that doesn't make it ok for the 6th guy to be an absolute abomination with the puck on his stick. Of course all 6 of your d-men aren't going to be perfect, but they all do have to be capable of two-way hockey to a certain extent. The deciding factor in many games is often just one or two mistakes that resulted in goals. And those mistakes are often the fault of one single player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
Parent is more of a defensive defenseman and how often is he asked to bring the puck out?
Very often. Parent is in situations where he has to make the decision to make the first pass out of the zone or skate it out of the zone all the time. You know why? Because every defenseman that sees ice in a game is going to have to do that. It's the nature of the game. If your partner is caught and you're the one heading back to retrieve the puck behind your net, you can't just ask the opposition to hang on for a few seconds.

It's not a simple issue. A d-man has to make a decision of what to do with the puck(quickly), and then he has to actually do it(quickly). And he can't be good at just one or the other...it takes two steps to get the job done, smarts and skill.

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Your 7th defenseman isnt going to be perfect.
Never suggested that.

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07-28-2009, 01:46 PM
  #22
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Easy choice. Vaananen doesn't fight, so he's out

Seems to be some misunderstandings about OKT here. He's not a bunch of injuries waiting to happen, but he's more exposed to them because of his style of play. That's something you have to take if you want his signature.

And he's better with the puck than you think, if he can't move the puck he wouldn't be an NHL-player in the first place, and he wouldn't be of interest to teams in this league.

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07-28-2009, 01:46 PM
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Vaananen has puck skills

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07-28-2009, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
If Flyers sign Tollefsen.. Who do you think is a better player?

Ole-Kristian Tollefsen. Ht: 6-2 Wt: 211 Age: 25
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=3076
Defensive defenseman. Loves to lay on the body and displays a wealth of toughness and aggression along the blueline. Has the makings of a sound defensive defenseman.
Needs to improve his all-around skills, since he's below average with the puck.

Tollefsen, when healthy, is a guided-missile and a shift-disturber from the back-end. With that being said, the way he plays the game makes him very susceptible to injury. If the Flyers are looking at him as a 1-year, #6-7, stop-gap fill for Marshall, then I'd be up for the experiment. I always felt like he was one of those players that would look good in orange and black.

I don't think we need to revisit Vaananen. He's not a bad performer when he gets into the flow of the game, but he's not very effective when his minutes are limited. And, as we say from last season, he's nowhere near the open-ice hitter that he was at the beginning of his career.

Now, I don't like Jones' cap number, but I don't want to be giving him away for free either. I'd feel more comfortable going into the season with our current d-corps and a few question marks up front than creating holes on the back-end to sign guys like Satan/Sykora/etc -- give the Nodls/JvRs/Maroons/Kalinskis something to work for.

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07-28-2009, 01:51 PM
  #25
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So you are saying that you know him and his play so well that he's so bad that he shouldn't even be playing in the AHL, is that right???
I am not saying that. I am making an argument about a d-man who is terrible with the puck on his stick, not about Tollefson. I'm arguing that it's not okay for one of your d-men to be a disaster with the puck on his stick just because the 5 others aren't. I've seen many suggestions from CBJ fans and others that Tollefson is in fact terrible with the puck on his stick...but whether he actually is that type of defenseman or not doesn't take away from the points I'm making about that type of defenseman.

I've seen very little of Tollefson myself, so I can't say much of anything about him one way or the other.

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