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The actual signing of Ole-Kristian Tollefsen (1yr, $600K)

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Old
08-01-2009, 11:53 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
All of us have foresight, and some of us quite often... it is just that the times we are incorrect are never again brought up... while the times we are correct are used in an "I told you Homer would be wrong" post.

I am amazed by just how many of us here are better GMs than Homer and his other 29 fellow GMs... Many of us have missed our calling... and, IMO, therein lies the problem.
That's because it's a calling almost entirely driven by institutional nepotism.

Though, that's beginning to change as teams are realizing they need to look outside the mold of former player/coach/scout at times in order to find the best minds for the job.

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08-01-2009, 11:56 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
This has been KILLING me recently on this board and I brought it up with Opus. When a lot of us criticize the team, other posters always bring up the "hindsight is 20/20" argument.

Okay, in some arguments, that's valid, but for this one, it's not.

A) People complained about the Jones deal the minute after he signed it.
B) People have been complaining about Stevens since 2007.
C) People complained about our lack of a faceoff man the entire season.
D) I personally brought up this team's apparent lack of focus and desire in February or March 2 months ahead of our Game 6 turd against the Penguins.

That's just 4 examples, there are many more.

That is not hindsight. This is people finding problems with the team and then being proven correct when the problems kill us.

That is not hindsight.

Hindsight is when a guy goes out driving, gets hit by a drunk driver, and his friend tells him, "maybe you shouldn't have gone out driving."

When we complain the whole year about how bad we are at faceoffs and then get slaughtered by the Pens on faceoffs and point that out, that's not hindsight.

End of story.
Do you want me to find you Comcast's employment office phone number?... Mr. Snider will at some point or another be hiring another GM, and having one that recognized Homer's shortcoming in advance would have a leg up on all the others.

If not, there is always Obama's job in another 3+ years.


** All in jest. **

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08-01-2009, 11:59 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Jones' contract.

Lupul's contract.

The cap ramifications of the Carle trade.

So on, and so forth.
Hindsight.

Hindsight.

Ramifications of hindsight.

So on and so forth-sight.





... Wanna list his good decisions?

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08-01-2009, 12:02 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That's because it's a calling almost entirely driven by institutional nepotism.

Though, that's beginning to change as teams are realizing they need to look outside the mold of former player/coach/scout at times in order to find the best minds for the job.


Apply for the position... Maybe the Flyers will be smart, hire you and then make no mistakes there on out in the future.

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08-01-2009, 12:21 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Hindsight.
Hated it from the moment it was signed and stated as much vociferously. It was a stupid contract to contemplate giving him, and Holmgren's justification of the contract was stupid.

Quote:
Hindsight.
17 July 2008:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm sure Holmgren has every intention of holding onto him...that doesn't mean he can't deal him if necessary to keep other players. As I keep noting to you in these discussions about young players and the salary cap...not everyone is going to stay; and a contract does not mean that you're necessarily going to stay -- unless you have a NMC.

Knowing Lupul's cap figure going forward has numerous advantages...from negotiating with other players on our team, to potentially trading him if necessary.


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Ramifications of hindsight.
Day of the trade:

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
For those scoring at home, Matt Carle is signed at $3.437M through 2011-12...and hasn't lived up to that deal at all.
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because Downie is going to be a very good player in this league when he gets a coach over him that isn't a jackass.

This trade is also a byproduct of Holmgren's utter failure to address real needs last offseason.
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm all for trading Lupul for a truly legit guy...the only reason Carle is even available in a deal is because he's GROSSLY overpaid for the play he's put on the ice. Having Carle and Jones on a team could be humorous for a cap efficiency perspective...
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So on and so forth-sight.
I think you need to ponder the difference between predictions that come true and are noted...and "hindsight."

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08-01-2009, 12:23 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Apply for the position... Maybe the Flyers will be smart, hire you and then make no mistakes there on out in the future.
Flyers quite literally almost universally hire people for management positions with direct connections to the organization as players. I mean, seriously, look at the organizations power structure...one of the biggest problems over the years as been the lack of outside perspectives being brought in.

Clarke, Holmgren, Dave Brown, Berube, Stevens, Hextall, etc., etc. Many of their scouts are hired via former players with the Flyers or Phantoms.

Look at the Phils, their current GM is the son of a former player.

It's no accident that a GM babbled about economizing the sport of baseball and the rest of the industry was floored by the prospect. True of all sports.

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08-01-2009, 12:29 PM
  #107
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Yeah, people need to understand that professional sports front offices are all about nepotism.

I mean, the Houston Rockets got murdered for hiring Daryl Morey and now everyone is starting to understand that he's doing an awesome job even though he didn't play in the league for 15 years.

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08-01-2009, 12:33 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hated it from the moment it was signed and stated as much vociferously. It was a stupid contract to contemplate giving him, and Holmgren's justification of the contract was stupid.



17 July 2008:







Day of the trade:









I think you need to ponder the difference between predictions that come true and are noted...and "hindsight."
I was being sarcastic... I am not ignorant to simple definitions... again, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then -- that may not have been a correct remark there, but you get my drift.





... IDK... Sounded to me like you were not against the Lupul signing because if it didn't pan out, Homer could just deal him off... which he did.





You don't understand where point out a few instances does not prove your point... And what is your point anyway? Homer is a horrendous GM? Or that you can always make better decisions than he can? Help me out here, please.

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08-01-2009, 12:38 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
All of us have foresight, and some of us quite often... it is just that the times we are incorrect are never again brought up... while the times we are correct are used in an "I told you Homer would be wrong" post.

I am amazed by just how many of us here are better GMs than Homer and his other 29 fellow GMs... Many of us have missed our calling... and, IMO, therein lies the problem.
And I am amazed at how much some of us here have a better feel of trade and free agent markets than Holmgren does...and that is a statement without one ounce of sarcasm.

If the fans have a better feel of what it going on than the team does, that is a major, major problem.

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08-01-2009, 12:43 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
I was being sarcastic... I am not ignorant to simple definitions... again, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then -- that may not have been a correct remark there, but you get my drift.
Who is the blind squirrel here? Me or Holmgren? I noted the salary cap problem of Carle the day of the trade, and that trade culminated in Holmgren getting called out publicly by his franchise player at the end of the year.

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... IDK... Sounded to me like you were not against the Lupul signing because if it didn't pan out, Homer could just deal him off... which he did.
I wasn't, and never was...but you'll note that I was completely unconvinced that he was going to remain, and that he should be used in a trade to get a defenseman.

What happened with him again?

Quote:
You don't understand where point out a few instances does not prove your point... And what is your point anyway? Homer is a horrendous GM? Or that you can always make better decisions than he can? Help me out here, please.
My point is that your complaint about posters and people using "hindsight" to criticize the job Holmgren is doing is completely and utterly devoid of any appreciation of the fact that much of the predictive, critical discourse of Holmgren has proven correct. I was quoting myself, others can speak for themselves. However, if you go back and look at the discussion of these deals when they were happening you will find numerous posters questioning what the hell Holmgren was doing.

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08-01-2009, 12:47 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Flyers quite literally almost universally hire people for management positions with direct connections to the organization as players. I mean, seriously, look at the organizations power structure...one of the biggest problems over the years as been the lack of outside perspectives being brought in.

Clarke, Holmgren, Dave Brown, Berube, Stevens, Hextall, etc., etc. Many of their scouts are hired via former players with the Flyers or Phantoms.

Look at the Phils, their current GM is the son of a former player.

It's no accident that a GM babbled about economizing the sport of baseball and the rest of the industry was floored by the prospect. True of all sports.
You miss the GM between the two Clarke periods who was not and led the team through it's half decade in the desert without postseasons... The one who traded away all the players (including Forsberg) and all the picks and millions of bucks, Farwell... Hmmm.

You also failed to take into consideration Allen, McCammon and Quinn (coach) and the many other head coaches that were almost all from outside the organization... Personally, I see nothing wrong with the devil you know, after he has had a long period of unofficial interviewing/tryouts through service in the organization; many teams also do that.

This of course cannot be confused with the in-house jobs that they find for their loyal family members... Which is an altogether different topic.

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08-01-2009, 12:51 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
And I am amazed at how much some of us here have a better feel of trade and free agent markets than Holmgren does...and that is a statement without one ounce of sarcasm.

If the fans have a better feel of what it going on than the team does, that is a major, major problem.
Than I suppose that it is amazing that they have the second best won/loss ratio behind the Habs since Expansion... They must be using smoke and mirrors.

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08-01-2009, 12:58 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who is the blind squirrel here? Me or Holmgren? I noted the salary cap problem of Carle the day of the trade, and that trade culminated in Holmgren getting called out publicly by his franchise player at the end of the year.



I wasn't, and never was...but you'll note that I was completely unconvinced that he was going to remain, and that he should be used in a trade to get a defenseman.

What happened with him again?



My point is that your complaint about posters and people using "hindsight" to criticize the job Holmgren is doing is completely and utterly devoid of any appreciation of the fact that much of the predictive, critical discourse of Holmgren has proven correct. I was quoting myself, others can speak for themselves. However, if you go back and look at the discussion of these deals when they were happening you will find numerous posters questioning what the hell Holmgren was doing.
There was much more into the Carle deal -- BTW: how did the other ends of that deal work out?, You praised Downie... if we don't give Homer the benefits of the doubt by not awaiting the end, why should we give it to you? -- But I don't want to go into the injured and floundering D that Homer had save to save a postseason shot... Lets just say that memories are short and very selective.

If I were to spend my weekend going over old posting... I'm sure I will find as much, if not more opinions that proved incorrect.

And are you telling me that you want to crucify Homer for the few things you believe you foresaw going wrong?

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08-01-2009, 01:02 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
You miss the GM between the two Clarke periods who was not and led the team through it's half decade in the desert without postseasons... The one who traded away all the players (including Forsberg) and all the picks and millions of bucks, Farwell... Hmmm.
Who hired him?

Quote:
You also failed to take into consideration Allen, McCammon and Quinn (coach) and the many other head coaches that were almost all from outside the organization... Personally, I see nothing wrong with the devil you know, after he has had a long period of unofficial interviewing/tryouts through service in the organization; many teams also do that.
Yes, they're part of the institutional nepotism structure that the Flyers are part of. Former NHL players, etc.

And, yes, on the surface there is nothing wrong with the "devil that you know," but there is when that blinds you to warts and other options. It's simply amazing to me that after 2.5+ years it's acceptable to Holmgren that he views his NHL head coach as still learning how to do his job.

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This of course cannot be confused with the in-house jobs that they find for their loyal family members... Which is an altogether different topic.
Not really, it's all part of the same structure. Guys rise up through organizations (which they have some specific connections to generally) and then find jobs within the industry. So, the Flyers have Ron Hextall working in their front office for a while and now he's an Asst. GM with the Kings, and likely to be a GM somewhere some day.

That in itself does not mean that Hextall will not be a good GM...I hope he becomes a very good GM, cuz I like the guy. However, lets not act like this is equal opportunity employment. John Stevens became an Asst. Head Coach with the Phantoms because he was playing there and knew people when his eye got damaged. The next year Barber went to the NHL and Stevens was there to inherit the AHL job, which he held for a few years and they eventually decided to throw him a bone and bring him up to the NHL...where he was in position to inherit the job when Hitch was canned. They had replaced Stevens with Berube (another former Flyer) as the Phantoms head coach...and now he's our assistant.

Now, the fact that they played within the organization does not mean they won't be successful at their job, but it was a, if not the key element in them getting the job in the first place.

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08-01-2009, 01:06 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
Than I suppose that it is amazing that they have the second best won/loss ratio behind the Habs since Expansion... They must be using smoke and mirrors.
And not a single Stanley Cup Championship in 35 years.

BTW 3 other teams in our division have won it 3 times since then.

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And are you telling me that you want to crucify Homer for the few things you believe you foresaw going wrong?
The thing is - we're allowed to be wrong. They're not.

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08-01-2009, 01:06 PM
  #116
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There was much more into the Carle deal -- BTW: how did the other ends of that deal work out?, You praised Downie... if we don't give Homer the benefits of the doubt by not awaiting the end, why should we give it to you? -- But I don't want to go into the injured and floundering D that Homer had save to save a postseason shot... Lets just say that memories are short and very selective.
I did praise Downie, but whether he succeeds or fails is completely independent of the cap problem that Holmgren created in that trade and ultimately bit us in the ass.

BTW, I was also HIGHLY critical of the defense Holmgren was struggling coming into that season...as you can see in the quote concerning Carle, so lets not act like he should be let off the hook with regard to the D problems on that team at the outset of the year...

Quote:
If I were to spend my weekend going over old posting... I'm sure I will find as much, if not more opinions that proved incorrect.
I'm sure you would, but the fact that numerous correct assertions exist should temper any strong sense that "hindsight" is the guiding light of criticism.

Or at least it should...because if you predict it before it happens, then you do have the right to say "I told you so."

Quote:
And are you telling me that you want to crucify Homer for the few things you believe you foresaw going wrong?
I stopped having faith in Holmgren as a GM last summer...well before he absolutely butchered his job throughout the course of last season. He's done little to alter my opinion since then.

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08-01-2009, 01:28 PM
  #117
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What on earth is going on here? The last two pages got nothing to do with Tollefsen, wouldn't it be an idea to create a new thread related to this discussion?

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08-01-2009, 01:53 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who hired him?
My guess is Snider... But he doesn't fit into you proposed problem.



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Yes, they're part of the institutional nepotism structure that the Flyers are part of. Former NHL players, etc.

I see... you have a problem with hiring people who have firsthand knowledge of the NHL, not merely exFlyers. How about Poile, Allen, Shero, Keenan, Farwell's coach whose name I forget at the moment (thank goodness)? Unless I'm mistaken, they were not NHL staples.

Quote:
And, yes, on the surface there is nothing wrong with the "devil that you know," but there is when that blinds you to warts and other options. It's simply amazing to me that after 2.5+ years it's acceptable to Holmgren that he views his NHL head coach as still learning how to do his job.
Unproven accusations, once again... Stevens was a well thought of future head coach, by many, who was rushed rather than lost... Not all coaches can win a Cup in their first few season. He is improving, IMO... Either they stick with him, or they cut bait and shift gears. I believe he is at the point where he has to grab hold of the job by making the next big step, or he is out.

Many people screamed about the embarrassing carousel of coaches that parade through the Flyers... After Barber, Snider an his men have made an effort to try and stick with coaches rather than quick trigger... Damned if you do/damned if you don't... once again.

Quote:
Not really, it's all part of the same structure. Guys rise up through organizations (which they have some specific connections to generally) and then find jobs within the industry. So, the Flyers have Ron Hextall working in their front office for a while and now he's an Asst. GM with the Kings, and likely to be a GM somewhere some day.

That in itself does not mean that Hextall will not be a good GM...I hope he becomes a very good GM, cuz I like the guy. However, lets not act like this is equal opportunity employment. John Stevens became an Asst. Head Coach with the Phantoms because he was playing there and knew people when his eye got damaged. The next year Barber went to the NHL and Stevens was there to inherit the AHL job, which he held for a few years and they eventually decided to throw him a bone and bring him up to the NHL...where he was in position to inherit the job when Hitch was canned. They had replaced Stevens with Berube (another former Flyer) as the Phantoms head coach...and now he's our assistant.

Now, the fact that they played within the organization does not mean they won't be successful at their job, but it was a, if not the key element in them getting the job in the first place.
Read my post again... once again you miss a point by a mile... I was referring to the family members who are given in-house positions such as Kelly, Joe Watson, Bernie and Dorney, etc... I thought that was quite clear; THEY are not to be confused with the GMs, Coaches and Scouts that you are talking about. There is no problem in the organization taking care of their loyal family by making them Ambassadors or work on selling ads or season tickets... Not in my mind, at least... In fact, I admire that, and it helps to bring people in to the fold when they witness that... and talk to the Alumni who stayed in the area.





... I must scoot to my other life -- the real one -- so, if I don't reply, I'm not ignoring anyone.

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08-01-2009, 01:59 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
And not a single Stanley Cup Championship in 35 years.

BTW 3 other teams in our division have won it 3 times since then.
Yes, but they are so useless... If I believe you.



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The thing is - we're allowed to be wrong. They're not.
That end this for me **sigh** That was what I feared was thought by many here.

Only Yahweh is pure.

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08-01-2009, 02:06 PM
  #120
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What on earth is going on here? The last two pages got nothing to do with Tollefsen, wouldn't it be an idea to create a new thread related to this discussion?


It is you who is off topic, my lobo friend... We are predicting, after the fact.








.... Now I must really go... sorry for hijacking the thread.

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08-01-2009, 03:03 PM
  #121
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My guess is Snider... But he doesn't fit into you proposed problem.
Jay Snider, who is no longer with the organization. Ed Snider is about as nepotistic as they come...and that isn't an evil in itself, because this organization is terribly loyal to its own. However, the hiring of Farwell came under different leadership than we were under prior to then, or have been since.

Quote:
I see... you have a problem with hiring people who have firsthand knowledge of the NHL, not merely exFlyers. How about Poile, Allen, Shero, Keenan, Farwell's coach whose name I forget at the moment (thank goodness)? Unless I'm mistaken, they were not NHL staples.
I don't have a problem with hiring people who have firsthand knowledge of the NHL...This began with you seeming to ignore the fact that the path to getting a job in the management of a sports team does not begin with whether or not you have the mental acumen for the job, but whether you happened to have played the sport at an acceptably high level.

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Unproven accusations, once again... Stevens was a well thought of future head coach, by many, who was rushed rather than lost... Not all coaches can win a Cup in their first few season. He is improving, IMO... Either they stick with him, or they cut bait and shift gears. I believe he is at the point where he has to grab hold of the job by making the next big step, or he is out.
So well thought of that he was barely interviewed outside of this organization (despite having an AHL championship on his resume), and was never offered a gig elsewhere.

Additionally, lets deal with your continued use of bizarre statements. Disprove any of the "unproven accusations" in this statement:

Quote:
And, yes, on the surface there is nothing wrong with the "devil that you know," but there is when that blinds you to warts and other options. It's simply amazing to me that after 2.5+ years it's acceptable to Holmgren that he views his NHL head coach as still learning how to do his job.

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08-01-2009, 06:39 PM
  #122
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Solid depth move, I like it.

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08-01-2009, 11:44 PM
  #123
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trade for Carle was bad not because of hindsight, but because of lack of foresight

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08-10-2009, 09:56 AM
  #124
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A couple of flyers fans asked if I got a pic of Tollefsen's wife. I guess that's kinda private, but the one below is a public one anyway. It's from the Blue Jackets annual fashion show and fundraiser to cancer research. Children from a hospital took part, including the girl in the middle.

Not bad that choice of his

Btw, is there a Flyers wives club around here with pics? I'd like to take a look


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08-10-2009, 10:39 AM
  #125
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A couple of flyers fans asked if I got a pic of Tollefsen's wife. I guess that's kinda private, but the one below is a public one anyway. It's from the Blue Jackets annual fashion show and fundraiser to cancer research. Children from a hospital took part, including the girl in the middle.

Not bad that choice of his

Btw, is there a Flyers wives club around here with pics? I'd like to take a look

Mrs. Tolly is a stone cold BABE.


Not to be wise, but does his shirt read, 'Looking for little miss naughty'?... What's with that, Dude?

The Flyers wives have an organizational charity called, 'Flyers wives fight for lives'... It is probably the largest fund raising group in the NHL, if not all of sports. It has been in existence since the late Seventies, IIRC... the main even is a huge carnival that the Flyers all participate in, presently making over a million bucks each carnival... plus added events and auctions. It has been the prototype of all other teams charity events.

I will try to get a wives photo site for you, my lobo friend.


Last edited by Sawdalite: 08-10-2009 at 11:06 AM.
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