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Old
07-31-2009, 10:05 PM
  #26
PeterTheGreat
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Awesome? He's average. Best case ever, he's somewhat above average, as he is a quality skater.
Well we obviously have different opinions. Hejduk is a very good back checker, and Im not sure how u don't notice that. His reading of the play in both the neutral zone and defensive zone usually put him in the right position to defend.

As for Wolski, I agree he's somewhat hot and cold in the defense department (actually in every department). Sometimes he is a good defensive player, especially on the penalty kill, but your right, sometimes he does indeed dog it out there.

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08-01-2009, 07:03 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Compared to whom? I don't have a problem with Hejduk's defense, but nor is it something to write home about. Across the NHL, he's a middle-of-the-road defensive player. He's a way above average offensive player, so the whole package is nice. But, just because he's one of the best defensive forwards on a horrid defensive team, doesn't make him anything special.



Awesome? He's average. Best case ever, he's somewhat above average, as he is a quality skater.
I'm sorry AB, but this is just flat wrong. Awesome is a bit of an overstatment, but he's among the best two way wingers in the league. His anticipation, reading of the play, positioning, stick work, and willingness to backcheck hard, are easily in the upper echelon of scoring wingers.

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Old
08-01-2009, 09:39 PM
  #28
ABasin
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'm sorry AB, but this is just flat wrong. Awesome is a bit of an overstatment, but he's among the best two way wingers in the league.


Right. Were you Peter McNab in a past life? ;-)

Hejduk is OK defensively, nothing special. One of the best in the league? Heh. Thought processes like that are what got the Avs to 14th place.

-AB

Edit: If one weighs the offensive part of Hejduk's game heavily, I'm actually OK with him being a good two-way forward. His offense is excellent. His defense is OK.


Last edited by ABasin: 08-01-2009 at 09:44 PM.
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08-01-2009, 09:41 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post


Right. Were you Peter McNab in a past life? ;-)

Hejduk is OK defensively, nothing special. One of the best in the league? Heh. Thought processes like that are what got the Avs to 14th place.

-AB
After Stastny Hejduk is the best defensive forward on the team. I'd say he's quite a bit better than 'average'.

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08-01-2009, 09:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by hekic42 View Post
After Stastny Hejduk is the best defensive forward on the team.
On a team that was dead last defensively in the WC last season.

A scary thought indeed.

-AB

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08-01-2009, 10:01 PM
  #31
WarriorOfGandhi
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
On a team that was dead last defensively in the WC last season.

A scary thought indeed.

-AB
Colorado wasn't dead last. In fact -- the only bright spot of the season -- the defense allowed the 9th-fewest shots against in the league (8th in the conference).

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08-01-2009, 10:02 PM
  #32
PeterTheGreat
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
On a team that was dead last defensively in the WC last season.

A scary thought indeed.

-AB
Hmm your right, that had absolutely nothing to do with our piece of s*** goalies and piss poor defence.

No, that was all Hejduks fault.

Hejduk is a good defensive forward for a scoring forward. Of course compared to a 4th line checker who's only job it is to shut the other team down, than he's not as good, but for a scorer, he is quite good defensively.

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08-01-2009, 10:03 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post


Right. Were you Peter McNab in a past life? ;-)

Hejduk is OK defensively, nothing special. One of the best in the league? Heh. Thought processes like that are what got the Avs to 14th place.

-AB

Edit: If one weighs the offensive part of Hejduk's game heavily, I'm actually OK with him being a good two-way forward. His offense is excellent. His defense is OK.
You know plenty well the season can't be blamed on one player. You know how many selke winners have probably missed the playoffs in their career? You know how many HOF'ers?

I'm actually quite surprised that someone who has watched the Avs as much as you, would think Hejduk is "average" defensively. Wolski last year, developed into being average defensively. Hejduk is quite clearly a level or two above that.

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Old
08-02-2009, 01:30 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
You know plenty well the season can't be blamed on one player. You know how many selke winners have probably missed the playoffs in their career? You know how many HOF'ers?

I'm actually quite surprised that someone who has watched the Avs as much as you, would think Hejduk is "average" defensively. Wolski last year, developed into being average defensively. Hejduk is quite clearly a level or two above that.
Agreed. I happen to think my initial idea of Jones-Wolski-Hejduk would be a great third line defensively with lots of offensive upside.

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08-02-2009, 02:14 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
Agreed. I happen to think my initial idea of Jones-Wolski-Hejduk would be a great third line defensively with lots of offensive upside.
It's still not a third line though when you have 2 of your 3 best forwards on it (as sad as that may be). That would be no less than our 2nd line, with the Stastny line (with maybe Stewart and Svatos?) being the other.

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08-02-2009, 02:38 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
It's still not a third line though when you have 2 of your 3 best forwards on it (as sad as that may be). That would be no less than our 2nd line, with the Stastny line (with maybe Stewart and Svatos?) being the other.
Stoa-Stastny-Svatos
Galiardi-Duchene-Stewart
Jones-Wolski-Hejduk

EDIT:

On second thought, I think these would be ideal.

Stoa-Stastny-Hejduk
Galiardi-Duchene-Svatos
Jones-Wolski-Stewart
Tucker-Mcleod-Koci


The only problem is that Wolski is being criminally underused.


Last edited by Avsboy: 08-02-2009 at 02:48 AM.
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Old
08-02-2009, 03:43 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
Stoa-Stastny-Svatos
Galiardi-Duchene-Stewart
Jones-Wolski-Hejduk

EDIT:

On second thought, I think these would be ideal.

Stoa-Stastny-Hejduk
Galiardi-Duchene-Svatos
Jones-Wolski-Stewart
Tucker-Mcleod-Koci


The only problem is that Wolski is being criminally underused.
If Stoa is our top line LW and Galiardi is our 2nd line LW, Wolski being underused isn't the only problem. If those are our top 2 left wingers, we have big problems.

Come to think of it, Wolski is playing center and Jones in naturally a RW. So I guess Galiardi and Stoa could actually be our top 2 LWrs.......we have big problems

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08-02-2009, 03:49 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
If Stoa is our top line LW and Galiardi is our 2nd line LW, Wolski being underused isn't the only problem. If those are our top 2 left wingers, we have big problems.

Come to think of it, Wolski is playing center and Jones in naturally a RW. So I guess Galiardi and Stoa could actually be our top 2 LWrs.......we have big problems
I was under the impression Jones could play LW.

Stoa right now would be a good 2nd line LW... elevating him to 1st is definitely worrisome, but not a BIG problem.

Galiardi is definitely a risky move, I hope he shows us the same abilities he showed when called up last time.

Wolski at C is the only option based on his play last year.

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Old
08-02-2009, 09:26 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
You know plenty well the season can't be blamed on one player. You know how many selke winners have probably missed the playoffs in their career? You know how many HOF'ers?
I didn't blame the Avs poor defensive finish on Hejduk. I simply said that overrating players' abilities led to the Avs finishing last. Hejduk's defense could be part of that, Clark's overall play, Foote's play, Tucker's play - it all adds up after awhile.

Just telling ourselves it's so, doesn't make it so. The results speak volumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'm actually quite surprised that someone who has watched the Avs as much as you, would think Hejduk is "average" defensively. Wolski last year, developed into being average defensively.
He did?

Yes, Hejduk is better than Wolski defensively. But, what is that saying? I said he could be somewhat above average as he's a very good skater, but 'really good'/'one of the best'/etc? Don't think so.

-AB

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08-02-2009, 09:29 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by PeterTheGreat View Post
Hmm your right, that had absolutely nothing to do with our piece of s*** goalies and piss poor defence.

No, that was all Hejduks fault.
Again, I never said it was all Hejduk's fault. I simply said he's not as good defensively as you think he is. And that overrating of players is something that has cost the Avs big time in the past few years.

However, going back to your first comment, the forwards' defense last year was absolutely horrible. IMO, arguably more so than anything the defensemen did or didn't do.

I agree that the goaltending was the primary culprit.

-AB

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08-02-2009, 09:44 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
Colorado wasn't dead last. In fact -- the only bright spot of the season -- the defense allowed the 9th-fewest shots against in the league (8th in the conference).
Shots against is a statistic indicating defensive performance, not the statistic. You honestly believe the Avs were the 8th best defensive team in the WC last year? Or 9th best in the NHL?!?

Using just that stat for WC comparison, the Avs were better defensively than Minnesota, Vancouver, Calgary and Nashville last year. Extending it to the rest of the NHL, the Avs were better defensively than Boston and Pittsburgh last year? Uh huh.

If that is the conclusion we come to after analyzing that one stat, I would respectfully suggest that we need to widen the scope of our analysis.


-AB


Last edited by ABasin: 08-02-2009 at 09:50 AM.
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08-02-2009, 11:47 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Shots against is a statistic indicating defensive performance, not the statistic. You honestly believe the Avs were the 8th best defensive team in the WC last year? Or 9th best in the NHL?!?

Using just that stat for WC comparison, the Avs were better defensively than Minnesota, Vancouver, Calgary and Nashville last year. Extending it to the rest of the NHL, the Avs were better defensively than Boston and Pittsburgh last year? Uh huh.

If that is the conclusion we come to after analyzing that one stat, I would respectfully suggest that we need to widen the scope of our analysis.


-AB
But it's better than any other statistic (GA, PK, etc.) because it isn't goalie-reliant. Hockey isn't like football in the sense that the raw goals against total is the end-all be-all of defensive capability. All the teams you mentioned have exponentially better goaltending than Colorado did last season, some of them having Vezina-caliber goaltending. The context of West v East is important too given how much more goals are scored in the east (Boston's s/a totals are more impressive considering they're further from the average) .

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08-02-2009, 12:05 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Again, I never said it was all Hejduk's fault. I simply said he's not as good defensively as you think he is. And that overrating of players is something that has cost the Avs big time in the past few years.

However, going back to your first comment, the forwards' defense last year was absolutely horrible. IMO, arguably more so than anything the defensemen did or didn't do.

I agree that the goaltending was the primary culprit.

-AB
I disagree. The problem of our defense last year starts from Goalie to Coaching to Defense men and then to forward defense.

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08-02-2009, 06:36 PM
  #44
ABasin
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
But it's better than any other statistic (GA, PK, etc.) because it isn't goalie-reliant.
OK, great.

Please explain to me how the Avs were better defensively than Minnesota and Pittsburgh (you remember them, the team that won the Stanley Cup against one of the NHL's best offensive teams?) last year.

Waiting...

-AB

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08-02-2009, 07:07 PM
  #45
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OK, great.

Please explain to me how the Avs were better defensively than Minnesota and Pittsburgh (you remember them, the team that won the Stanley Cup against one of the NHL's best offensive teams?) last year.

Waiting...

-AB
Ok.

In the regular season, Colorado gave their opposition fewer scoring chances than Minnesota and Pittsburgh did.

Any other questions?

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08-02-2009, 07:25 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
Ok.

In the regular season, Colorado gave their opposition fewer scoring chances than Minnesota and Pittsburgh did.

Any other questions?
LMMFAO.

Nope. No questions here. F'inA. Good stuff. Probably a mirror image of FG's exit interview.

Thanks, dude. Best laugh I've had in weeks. Colorado=Minnesota/Pitt defensively in the regular season. Priceless.

LOL.

-AB


Last edited by ABasin: 08-02-2009 at 07:58 PM.
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Old
08-02-2009, 08:04 PM
  #47
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Glad to help.

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Old
08-03-2009, 04:40 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
LMMFAO.

Nope. No questions here. F'inA. Good stuff. Probably a mirror image of FG's exit interview.

Thanks, dude. Best laugh I've had in weeks. Colorado=Minnesota/Pitt defensively in the regular season. Priceless.

LOL.

-AB
Simplified:

Shot = scoring chance.

Less shots against = less scoring chances against.
Colorado had less shots against.


Extrapolating that that means we were better defensively is a reach, though I don't see that anyone claimed as much here.
You have to take playing style into account... a run and gun team will have way more shots against etc. And the Avs had to play a controlling defensive style to try and compensate for lack of talent.


All this while you've never really explained your placement of the Avs being "dead last" defensively (and we're taking our goalies into account when discussing this ofcourse).

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08-03-2009, 11:38 AM
  #49
ABasin
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Originally Posted by El_Loco_Avs View Post
Simplified:

Shot = scoring chance.

Less shots against = less scoring chances against.
Of course, your analysis has no mention of the quality of said scoring chances. For years, Minnesota has kept the opposition from coming into their zone with speed, and also kept the majority of the opposition's shots to the outside (the Avs last year - not so much of either). There's more to it than simply counting shots.

Which is better defense? Allowing 25 close-in shots, or allowing 30 shots from the outside? That example is a purposefully skewed one, just to show a point.

The Avs were terrible defensively last year. I'm not ignoring the lousy goaltending, but no way in Hades were they better than Minnesota or the championship team.

This is so obvious, we're now into silly-land, so I'll give you the last word and leave you guys to your delusions. Delusions that FG shared, btw.

-AB

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Old
08-03-2009, 12:42 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Wolski is, at best, a lame duck center - with Duchene sitting there. The Avs no longer need him there, so he needs to make it at wing. And I'm sorry - Wolski is not decent defensively. Maybe he's "decent" on a last place team, but compared to other centers in the NHL, Wolski is underwhelming defensively.

I don't object to a Jones-Wolski-Hejduk line. It just can't be a checking line. That's the Avs 2nd line.

-AB
If this is all true (and I agree that it is), the Avs need to showcase Wolski during the first half of this season - playing Center - and trade him at the deadline.

Everyone can argue if Wolski is a good or crappy center, but I think we can all agree that he is a MUCH better Center than Wing. And if he's not playing at center 2-3 years from now, we need to deal him while we can still get value in return.

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