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Trade: Colin Stuart + Anton Stralman to CGY for Wayne Primeau + CGY 2nd 2011 Part Two

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Old
08-01-2009, 05:05 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
I was speaking in general terms overall on trading for or receiving a future pick for a young player strategy.

But you make a good point here perhaps if you're correct.. That means the Flames themselves would value their own prospects more then the 2011 2nd round pick if they didn't want to part with prospect(s).. They also value Stralman as well > 2nd round pick or they wouldn't have made the trade.
Twisting the facts as usual, Mess. There was more in this trade than just the 2nd and Stralman. Have you forgotten that we are taking on Primeau's contract and giving them a younger, healthier replacement player at a much cheaper cost? I doubt you have, since it was right in the thread title. Without the salary dump, we would not have gotten the 2nd for Stralman. Obviously the Flames don't value Stralman over their 2nd, otherwise they would not have required we take on Primeau's salary and give Stuart. Clearly, the Flames believed that 2nd round pick>Stralman.

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08-01-2009, 07:19 PM
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Burke believes 2nd in 2011 > losing Stralman on waivers for nothing this season.
fixed.

Sutter practically hates 2nd rounders, he swats them away like gnats flying around his face...so this was a salary dump.

He may not even care about Stralman...he may be there in case one of his regulars gets injured in camp or preseason or early in the year...or he'll keep him in the press box for a few games in case of injuries or a player playing poorly.

or he may think there is some chance Stralman can beat out one of his top 6...

I think it was a great move by Burke getting the 2nd.

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08-01-2009, 10:24 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
I was speaking in general terms overall on trading for or receiving a future pick for a young player strategy.

But you make a good point here perhaps if you're correct.. That means the Flames themselves would value their own prospects more then the 2011 2nd round pick if they didn't want to part with prospect(s).. They also value Stralman as well > 2nd round pick or they wouldn't have made the trade.

So Flames essentially gave away the least valued item they had to get Stralman. Yet generally speaking the majority of Leaf fans view it as the best return we could have expected/hoped for Stralman and in turn call it a good trade for us as we ranked 2nd > Stralman.

Since its the GMs that made the trade and Burke believes 2nd in 2011 > Stralman and Sutter believes the exact opposite as he dealt the pick for the player..

Since both can't be true simultaneously then the victor of the trade appears to be viewed from the perspective of; "In the eyes of the beholder" for each GM.
Exactly.

It's basically the Grabovski deal Flames edition.

Even if Burke holds onto that selection until the 2011 draft, having two 2nd's should allow us to move up the draft. I'm of course assuming by the 2011 draft our selection will be mid a range 1st rounder (14th-20th) because of our improvement.

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08-02-2009, 12:11 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
What do you mean "pick and choose"??

Kubina, Stralman, Stuart and the 7th went out and Exelby, Primeau, and a second round pick that we won't even get to use for 2 more years came in. Those are the facts.

Beauchemin has nothing at all to do with the trade, he cost nothing but money. He could have been signed whether or not we traded Kubina -- again, we already had the cap space if no topline forward was brought in.
By pick and choose I mean you have to look at every single move, not just trades...especially in a salary cap world. By unloading guys like Kubina, it opened the door for a guy like Komisarek...for cheaper as well.

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08-02-2009, 12:53 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Poggemon Destiny View Post
By pick and choose I mean you have to look at every single move, not just trades...especially in a salary cap world. By unloading guys like Kubina, it opened the door for a guy like Komisarek...for cheaper as well.
But if you look at the big picture, there's not as much to complain about, and that's no fun.

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08-02-2009, 09:34 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Poggemon Destiny View Post
By pick and choose I mean you have to look at every single move, not just trades...especially in a salary cap world.
You're not paying attention. I just went through this, and DID look at every single move. Did you not read my post? I'm assuming you did since you quoted it.

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By unloading guys like Kubina, it opened the door for a guy like Komisarek...for cheaper as well.
Kubina is better than Komisarek, and for the third time we didn't need to trade him sign Komisarek. The cap space argument is bogus in this case.

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08-02-2009, 09:47 AM
  #32
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You're not paying attention. I just went through this, and DID look at every single move. Did you not read my post? I'm assuming you did since you quoted it.



Kubina is better than Komisarek, and for the third time we didn't need to trade him sign Komisarek. The cap space argument is bogus in this case.
Kubina is better if you like someone with a complete lack of ability to play in his own end...

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08-02-2009, 10:00 AM
  #33
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Kubina is better if you like someone with a complete lack of ability to play in his own end...
I prefer Komi to Kubina, but thats a bit of a stretch. He's not bad in his own zone, he's just not as good. Komi also plays a lot tougher (when not playing the Bruins)

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08-02-2009, 10:01 AM
  #34
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Kubina is better if you like someone with a complete lack of ability to play in his own end...
Kubina was #77, not #4.

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08-02-2009, 10:02 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Kubina is better than Komisarek, and for the third time we didn't need to trade him sign Komisarek. The cap space argument is bogus in this case.
Not head to head, no, but moving Kubina out gave them some breathing room for the ensuing days - ie not knowing how much other FAs they were going after we're going to cost.

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08-02-2009, 10:03 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Kubina is better than Komisarek, and for the third time we didn't need to trade him sign Komisarek. The cap space argument is bogus in this case.
Kubina is better at putting up points.

That said, you really aren't taking the whole picture into account. Even if we agree that Kubina is the better overall player, there's more to player value than on-ice abilities. In particular, Kubina's contract was an issue. Burke had a limited window in which to move him or face the potential that:

A) Kubina blocks yet another trade at the deadline.
B) Kubina - who will be 33 at the conclusion of the season - wants a pay raise and a similar contract to the one he's on at the end of the season.
C) Kubina walks and Burke has nothing to show for it.

I like Kubina, but I would've seriously considered moving him, too.

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08-02-2009, 10:06 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Courage View Post
Kubina is better at putting up points.

That said, you really aren't taking the whole picture into account. Even if we agree that Kubina is the better overall player, there's more to player value than on-ice abilities. In particular, Kubina's contract was an issue. Burke had a limited window in which to move him or face the potential that:

A) Kubina blocks yet another trade at the deadline.
B) Kubina - who will be 33 at the conclusion of the season - wants a pay raise and a similar contract to the one he's on at the end of the season.
C) Kubina walks and Burke has nothing to show for it.

I like Kubina, but I would've seriously considered moving him, too.
I would have considered a trade as well, but not for a stiff like Exelby who is, on a good day, a #6 defenseman at this point.

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08-02-2009, 10:09 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Kubina is better than Komisarek, and for the third time we didn't need to trade him sign Komisarek. The cap space argument is bogus in this case.
The cap savings between Komisarek and Kubina is .5 million. I wouldn't exactly call that a reason to dump a European contract for an American one.

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08-02-2009, 10:10 AM
  #39
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I would have considered a trade as well, but not for a stiff like Exelby who is, on a good day, a #6 defenseman at this point.
I don't think Burke looks at that trade as a player-for-player deal. It was a way of getting a contract and salary off the books to make room for players he thinks are better for the team in the medium and long-term. Exelby and Stuart weren't "throw-ins" exactly, but it's not as though Burke called up Atlanta looking to get his hands on Exelby at all costs.

I think that the contract issues I mentioned above probably did a lot to limit the market for Kubina as well. You're basically getting what might be a $5,000,000 one-year rental.

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08-02-2009, 10:20 AM
  #40
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I don't think Burke looks at that trade as a player-for-player deal. It was a way of getting a contract and salary off the books to make room for players he thinks are better for the team in the medium and long-term. Exelby and Stuart weren't "throw-ins" exactly, but it's not as though Burke called up Atlanta looking to get his hands on Exelby at all costs.

I think that the contract issues I mentioned above probably did a lot to limit the market for Kubina as well. You're basically getting what might be a $5,000,000 one-year rental.
I read that Burke was interested in Exelby for a little while, even before the trade so yeah, it probably wasn't a throw-in.

I haven't seen Exelby play that much but if Burke wanted him I am interested to see what he has planned.

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08-02-2009, 10:29 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Courage View Post
I don't think Burke looks at that trade as a player-for-player deal. It was a way of getting a contract and salary off the books to make room for players he thinks are better for the team in the medium and long-term. Exelby and Stuart weren't "throw-ins" exactly, but it's not as though Burke called up Atlanta looking to get his hands on Exelby at all costs.

I think that the contract issues I mentioned above probably did a lot to limit the market for Kubina as well. You're basically getting what might be a $5,000,000 one-year rental.
Regardless, it was horrible asset management. You trade a top pairing defenseman for a guy who more often than not probably shouldn't be in the lineup.

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08-02-2009, 10:41 AM
  #42
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The previous interim GM traded a pair of future 2nd round picks to obtain Luke Schenn and Mikhail Grabovski for the Leafs as part of the rebuild process.. Both are now expect to be key contributors to our immediate and future success..

I was wondering based on this deal here if posters had to pick an option .. Which would they rather have seen during our rebuild process? .

Option A: Stralman traded for a 2011 2nd round pick

or

Option B: Burke trading a 2011 2nd round pick to obtain a young prospect < age 23 to bring in instant help like Schenn and Grabovski became?


Umm, Stralman is IMMEDIATE help now? Really? There's no certainty he makes their lineup and if he does it won't be in a top four position (like Grabo was in a top six spot). I don't think you can compare the two.

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08-02-2009, 10:41 AM
  #43
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Kubina was #77, not #4.
If anyone here actually played the position or even coached for that matter, they would have seen a certain 77 consistently chase behind the net, not switch on rotations, break up formations to chase the puck and make horrendous pinches in positions where he obviously didn't have the speed to make the play or recover.

As much as Leafs fans on this board don't want to admit, he was **** through the vast majority of his time here and that's one of the reasons for his minimal return.

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08-02-2009, 11:14 AM
  #44
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Kubina is better if you like someone with a complete lack of ability to play in his own end...
Your talent assessment needs some work. And while we're on the topic of play in one's own end, the Leafs had better hope Kaberle stays because Komisarek is next to useless with the puck.

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Kubina is better at putting up points.
Kubina is better at everything except hitting. And he's pretty good at that, too.

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That said, you really aren't taking the whole picture into account

. Even if we agree that Kubina is the better overall player, there's more to player value than on-ice abilities. In particular, Kubina's contract was an issue. Burke had a limited window in which to move him or face the potential that:

A) Kubina blocks yet another trade at the deadline.
B) Kubina - who will be 33 at the conclusion of the season - wants a pay raise and a similar contract to the one he's on at the end of the season.
C) Kubina walks and Burke has nothing to show for it.

I like Kubina, but I would've seriously considered moving him, too.
This makes no sense at all. First off, Komisarek is clearly inferior in most areas of the game and makes only .5 million less, and we've signed him for several years. There's no cap argument to be made here. The team has lost talent, period.

Secondly, your fear of Kubina walking away is mitigated by what, exactly...dealing him for a crappy player like Exelby and replacing him in the top 4 with an inferior defenceman? I don't get it.

Komisarek is younger but that really doesn't make me feel any better about it. I'm sure he'll throw some great hits this season and block shots, but there's nothing else he does particularly well.

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Old
08-02-2009, 11:23 AM
  #45
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Umm, Stralman is IMMEDIATE help now? Really? There's no certainty he makes their lineup and if he does it won't be in a top four position (like Grabo was in a top six spot). I don't think you can compare the two.
Well if posters around here are correct and Stralman must clear waivers this year, then Calgary giving up a 2nd round pick must suggest they feel that Stralman will be a part of the Flames teams this year. Like Grabo and Leafs giving up a 2nd round for him they were not going to toss him on waivers but essentially guaranteed him a roster spot irrelevant of play.. If he can be sent to the AHL without waivers then that changes the situation greatly as the need to trade him.

It will be interesting to see what Anton does and this is playing behind a defense that already includes Jay Bouwmeester, Dion Phaneuf, Robyn Regehr.

It should be surprising, if he is good enough to play on the Flames but not good enough to play on the Leafs.. This considering Calgary is Cup contender and Leafs are rebuilding and at different stages presently of their Teams cycles. Then again Burke had counted Stralman himself among his depth on D and 10 NHL level defenders thus the trade.

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08-02-2009, 11:43 AM
  #46
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Well if posters around here are correct and Stralman must clear waivers this year, then Calgary giving up a 2nd round pick must suggest they feel that Stralman will be a part of the Flames teams this year. Like Grabo and Leafs giving up a 2nd round for him they were not going to toss him on waivers but essentially guaranteed him a roster spot irrelevant of play.. If he can be sent to the AHL without waivers then that changes the situation greatly as the need to trade him.

It will be interesting to see what Anton does and this is playing behind a defense that already includes Jay Bouwmeester, Dion Phaneuf, Robyn Regehr.

It should be surprising, if he is good enough to play on the Flames but not good enough to play on the Leafs.. This considering Calgary is Cup contender and Leafs are rebuilding and at different stages presently of their Teams cycles. Then again Burke had counted Stralman himself among his depth on D and 10 NHL level defenders thus the trade.
i live in Calgary and have the unfortunate ability to watch the flames too many times a year. their PP was abysmal last year, i'm sure stralman was brought in to man the 2nd PP unit. as a leaf fan, what this deal tells we is that white and kaberle are both staying. white earned it, kaberle is the type of talent you just don't trade off you blueline. nice to see leaf prospects develop and suceed as leafs eh?

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08-02-2009, 11:58 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by BIG BLUE View Post
fixed.

Sutter practically hates 2nd rounders, he swats them away like gnats flying around his face...so this was a salary dump.

He may not even care about Stralman...he may be there in case one of his regulars gets injured in camp or preseason or early in the year...or he'll keep him in the press box for a few games in case of injuries or a player playing poorly.

or he may think there is some chance Stralman can beat out one of his top 6...

I think it was a great move by Burke getting the 2nd.
Yup.

2nd round pick for a player who has proven absolutely nothing since coming to North America. Pretty good deal considering his waiver status.

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08-02-2009, 12:39 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
Kubina was #77, not #4.


Quote of the day.

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08-02-2009, 01:00 PM
  #49
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Yup.

2nd round pick for a player who has proven absolutely nothing since coming to North America. Pretty good deal considering his waiver status.
In your eyes he's proven nothing but to people who have there heads out of there @ss they see a young 22 year with potential play limited minutes and not look out of place. Did he make mistakes sure he did so did every player on the team.

Just wait and see the mistakes Komisarek makes with the puck can you say McCabe. Wait to you see Exelby running around the zone out of position to make hits. What's Beauchemin going to do with out Pronger and Neidermieyer he did little before that. Maybe your blind to what Stralman does well that's your problem and for anybody that question's his ability did not see this kid play where he got the chance to play big minutes.

He was the best D men for the Marley's in the playoffs and if you saw him play at the worlds you would have been jumping with joy that the Leafs had a kid like this. People throw some lame @ss excuses about the differences of playing on the big ice to the NHL when in reality it's not that big of a difference hockey is hockey if it played such a big difference Canada would never win on the big ice at all levels.

Stralman displayed fantastic hockey at the worlds going head to head against some of the worlds best. He out played Kaberle for those who don't know. That was a result of him playing confident something that this organization is notorious for destroying youth of in the past.

It's simple really Stralman believed that he should be an NHL player and he took his career into his own hands by asking to be moved that's why he was traded. If it was based on Management not valuing him into future plans that's a gross miss read of talent and a big mistake.

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08-02-2009, 02:40 PM
  #50
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The cap savings between Komisarek and Kubina is .5 million. I wouldn't exactly call that a reason to dump a European contract for an American one.
I see it more as a NTC for limited NTC. Komisarek is movable at anytime in his contract rather than someone who can block you at each deadline.

Near the end of his contract Komisarek can be moved for assets and allow kids to step in. Kubina was never going to allow himself to be moved at the deadline.

Exelby can be moved at the deadline if needed.

This is what you call asset mangement.

Our GM has taken control of the team again. Plain and simple.

You don't want to be here, he'll trade you. You don't want to put in the effort at the minors and develop the way the coaches are asking, he'll trade you. If he doesn't see you as part of the future team, he'll trade you.

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