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08-02-2009, 03:56 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I guess it is true that Bettman and Daly have crystal balls.
To me, I would think that crystal balls would be very uncomfortable... Oh, well.



Seriously though... What difference does it make... The Flyers would than have to play a season or more spending $5M+ less than their competition... Unless they could LTIR him, but that could also be because he couldn't play even though he wants to.

The man has been a monster so far health-wise, has he not?... I like to someday look up the stats on the players that play into thier forties and compare them to Pronger's... Or we can merely gaze at Bettman and Daly's balls to know the future. LOL

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08-02-2009, 04:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post

Furthermore, the last 3 years of the deal, he makes 5,350,000 total.
thats double what the last 4 years of Hossa's contract calls for based on per season salary.

As I stated in my previous post, I understand the NHL is investigating these 2 contracts because another front office type in the NHL has issued a complaint.

The big differeance between the Zetterberg-Datsyuk contracts and Hossa-Pronger deal is that Zetts and Datsyuk have played their entire careers for Detroit and made it public beforehand that they would prefer to play their entire NHL careers there, whereas Pronger and Hossa have become missionaries who move on to other teams very regularly. What kind of loyalty do either player have to the teams that signed them compared to the Detroit pair?

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08-02-2009, 04:14 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
thats double what the last 4 years of Hossa's contract calls for based on per season salary.

As I stated in my previous post, I understand the NHL is investigating these 2 contracts because another front office type in the NHL has issued a complaint.

The big differeance between the Zetterberg-Datsyuk contracts and Hossa-Pronger deal is that Zetts and Datsyuk have played their entire careers for Detroit and made it public beforehand that they would prefer to play their entire NHL careers there, whereas Pronger and Hossa have become missionaries who move on to other teams very regularly. What kind of loyalty do either player have to the teams that signed them compared to the Detroit pair?
Pronger is a 35+ contract...why is his contract even being considered remotely comparable to the others?

It's really beyond stupid that Pronger's is under scrutiny in the slightest.

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08-02-2009, 04:32 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
The big differeance between the Zetterberg-Datsyuk contracts and Hossa-Pronger deal is that Zetts and Datsyuk have played their entire careers for Detroit and made it public beforehand that they would prefer to play their entire NHL careers there, whereas Pronger and Hossa have become missionaries who move on to other teams very regularly. What kind of loyalty do either player have to the teams that signed them compared to the Detroit pair?
Valid point, but then there's nothing in the CBA that discusses front loading contracts for loyalty purposes only. You can't just penalize teams because you don't agree with what they're doing, so long as no rules are being broken.

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08-02-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Pronger is a 35+ contract...why is his contract even being considered remotely comparable to the others?

It's really beyond stupid that Pronger's is under scrutiny in the slightest.
Not to be a conspiratorist (<==== self created word), but what happened a couple years back when teams screamed and Campbell came down with the hammer, time and time again... Some deserved, some too harsh... but almost always a suspension was forthcoming. Similar incidents, some involving Flyers on the other side, went without calls for action, and no reviews occurred -- merely once case was when Downie was run into the boards by the Pen's Georges Laraque in the very same game he ran Biron, IIRC... and what the buzz was was that Downie ran his own head into the boards to draw a call.

Not to play the everybody is against the Flyers card but, if the cries by other organizations brings sanctions on the Flyers... who stand to lose the player and the Cap if Pronger can't play through the contract... I will be greatly upset and, if they let the Hawks off while punishing the Flyers, I will firmly play that card.

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08-02-2009, 04:44 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
thats double what the last 4 years of Hossa's contract calls for based on per season salary.

As I stated in my previous post, I understand the NHL is investigating these 2 contracts because another front office type in the NHL has issued a complaint.

The big differeance between the Zetterberg-Datsyuk contracts and Hossa-Pronger deal is that Zetts and Datsyuk have played their entire careers for Detroit and made it public beforehand that they would prefer to play their entire NHL careers there, whereas Pronger and Hossa have become missionaries who move on to other teams very regularly. What kind of loyalty do either player have to the teams that signed them compared to the Detroit pair?
I believe you mean mercenaries... But two points in response:

* Pronger has never been a FA... he has always been traded.

* If he decided to end his career as a Flyer, what difference does it make to the other two who decided where they want to end up? The point is circumvention, and if a team is doing so -- and the Wings would be doing it twice in that case

* There is more reason to believe, based on a longer history and a better feel for a player at a later point in his career, that Pronger will play past forty than Zetterberg, who has less a track record.

Fair is fair.

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08-02-2009, 05:43 PM
  #82
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NHLPA responds....

LINK

EDIT: Saw this was posted earlier, so my apologies. I think it helps to back up what most are saying here.

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08-02-2009, 06:03 PM
  #83
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Signing a player using a loophole in a stupid cap that benefits no one except crappy teams in weak markets = bad.

Being crappy team in a weak market, tanking year after year for top picks, nearly going bankrupt and almost relocating = model.

Nice.

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08-02-2009, 08:01 PM
  #84
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Chicago poached a Detroit player and Detroit complained. That is all there is to this whole thing. We got dragged in as a smoke screen.

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08-02-2009, 08:35 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ph View Post
Chicago poached a Detroit player and Detroit complained. That is all there is to this whole thing. We got dragged in as a smoke screen.
Punishing Chicago will no doubt pain Bettman and his cohorts... But cracking down on the Flyers will pick up their spirits... sending them home for dinner happy and contented.

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08-02-2009, 09:53 PM
  #86
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These deals are great for players and the teams, players still get the money, the teams don't have it count against the cap, the fans get continuity with a player(which is always good). It's a win for everyone, which of course means the NHL needs to investigate it.

and it's established the flyers are screwed if pronger retires anyway. Did anyone in the league office bother to see if Mogliny was alive or dead when the devils miraculously made their cap problems go away, of course not. The NHL is getting like nascar.

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08-02-2009, 10:12 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
These deals are great for players and the teams, players still get the money, the teams don't have it count against the cap, the fans get continuity with a player(which is always good). It's a win for everyone, which of course means the NHL needs to investigate it.

and it's established the flyers are screwed if pronger retires anyway. Did anyone in the league office bother to see if Mogliny was alive or dead when the devils miraculously made their cap problems go away, of course not. The NHL is getting like nascar.
It's not a win for small market teams who can't afford to do things like this. Kind of defeats the reason they fought so hard for a lockout actually.

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08-02-2009, 10:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
It's not a win for small market teams who can't afford to do things like this. Kind of defeats the reason they fought so hard for a lockout actually.
They can afford to do these things.

It's certainly much better for them that the market value for an elite player is $5-6M a year as opposed to $8-10M. Moreover, the fact that players are willing to sign deals like this (as opposed to looking to hit the UFA market every few years to re-inflate their contract) is a good thing for the small market teams.

If they can't afford to put that kind of money into a franchise-level player, then they should get out of the business.

All of that is without noting that small market teams did not have to compete with some of the traditional big spenders because they were or are now locked into their own players (Flyers and Red Wings are notably absent from the free agent market this year). Additionally, as we are well aware around these parts, the Flyers will not be competitive on the free agent market any time in the near future without significant moves to clear cap space.

If you're a small market team this is working out perfectly. The big clubs are getting tied up financially, and you have the ability to bid on elite talent without destroying yourself long-term. Hurt short-term? Absolutely, but you can manage that either through managing your other contracts or operating at a short-term financial loss for long-term gain.

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08-02-2009, 11:18 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Pronger is a 35+ contract...why is his contract even being considered remotely comparable to the others?

It's really beyond stupid that Pronger's is under scrutiny in the slightest.
because of the cap hit.
if this was a 7 year contract at say 6 million per the league wouldnt even be coming anywhere near it.
But the Flyers are paying Pronger at far below what the average salary is for one of the best defenseman in the league at 4.92

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08-02-2009, 11:23 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
because of the cap hit.
if this was a 7 year contract at say 6 million per the league wouldnt even be coming anywhere near it.
But the Flyers are paying Pronger at far below what the average salary is for one of the best defenseman in the league at 4.92
Why does that matter? They aren't circumventing anything because they are not avoiding paying out ANY funds against that cap. Period.

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08-02-2009, 11:35 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
because of the cap hit.
if this was a 7 year contract at say 6 million per the league wouldnt even be coming anywhere near it.
But the Flyers are paying Pronger at far below what the average salary is for one of the best defenseman in the league at 4.92
And if he were sub-35 and in the event he could retire and that cap hit go bye-bye, I would completely understand them having some questions concerning the $$$ drop-off. However, he's 35+ so there's no way to get away from the cap hit on that contract. They can LTIR him...or trade the rights away, but that contract is going to count against the salary cap in the NHL for its duration.

By the very rules of the CBA, there is no way to make a contract for Pronger that "circumvents" the salary cap.

For a sub-35 player, I can very much design a contract that is entirely intended to circumvent the cap, which is why investigating Hossa (or some of these other contracts) makes perfect sense. If the team and player have an agreement in principle that the player is going to retire at some pre-determined time and make the cap hit go away, then the tacked on years are there purely to lower the cap hit during the time period both parties expect the player to be in the NHL and playing on that contract.

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08-02-2009, 11:44 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And if he were sub-35 and in the event he could retire and that cap hit go bye-bye, I would completely understand them having some questions concerning the $$$ drop-off. However, he's 35+ so there's no way to get away from the cap hit on that contract. They can LTIR him...or trade the rights away, but that contract is going to count against the salary cap in the NHL for its duration.

By the very rules of the CBA, there is no way to make a contract for Pronger that "circumvents" the salary cap..
I hear you, but i cant come up with no other reason why they would look at it.
it doesnt make any sense.
Of course it would have nothing to do with the Philadelphia Flyers being involved.

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08-03-2009, 07:04 AM
  #93
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I hope the Blackhawks and Flyers sue the NHL, because what they're doing is out and out illegal.

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08-03-2009, 09:39 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They can afford to do these things.

It's certainly much better for them that the market value for an elite player is $5-6M a year as opposed to $8-10M. Moreover, the fact that players are willing to sign deals like this (as opposed to looking to hit the UFA market every few years to re-inflate their contract) is a good thing for the small market teams.

If they can't afford to put that kind of money into a franchise-level player, then they should get out of the business.

All of that is without noting that small market teams did not have to compete with some of the traditional big spenders because they were or are now locked into their own players (Flyers and Red Wings are notably absent from the free agent market this year). Additionally, as we are well aware around these parts, the Flyers will not be competitive on the free agent market any time in the near future without significant moves to clear cap space.

If you're a small market team this is working out perfectly. The big clubs are getting tied up financially, and you have the ability to bid on elite talent without destroying yourself long-term. Hurt short-term? Absolutely, but you can manage that either through managing your other contracts or operating at a short-term financial loss for long-term gain.
I don't see how you can make the argument that they can afford it when a third of the league is operating at a self imposed cap that isn't near the real cap. The contracts are keeping the cap hits for some of these players down, but they're still actually getting paid $8M a year, which is what the small teams can't afford. If they're not willing to spend to the cap, how can they offer these kinds of deals that make their payroll go over the cap?

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08-03-2009, 09:54 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Orange Crush 89 View Post
I hope the Blackhawks and Flyers sue the NHL, because what they're doing is out and out illegal.
Investigating something is illegal?

If the Blackhawks and Hossa have an under-the-table agreement that he will retire before that contract is over and years were tacked onto the contract purely to lower the cap hit during the years Hossa intends to play, then that is not an "honest" contract and is purely designed to circumvent the cap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I don't see how you can make the argument that they can afford it when a third of the league is operating at a self imposed cap that isn't near the real cap. The contracts are keeping the cap hits for some of these players down, but they're still actually getting paid $8M a year, which is what the small teams can't afford. If they're not willing to spend to the cap, how can they offer these kinds of deals that make their payroll go over the cap?
Because if they're paying $8M now on a long-term contract with a $6M cap hit, it means they're going to save in some future years. Moreover, given the types of players we're talking about on these deals, it allows them to build marketing strategies around high-end talent in the long-term. And, as said, if the ownership group is thinking long term, they can assume some spending above their self-imposed cap for future spending below.

Cem on, this is America...do it on credit for now!

Now, a small market team might be less willing to give out such a deal to someone like Hossa who will be relatively old at the tail end of the contract, but they are now capable of locking up their franchise players to long-term contracts that take them through their prime.

I also think the larger issue that is getting ignored here, as noted, is that you're seeing the "big market" teams cease being big players on the free agent market. The ONLY premier free agent the Flyers have signed since the lockout is Briere. You can include Timonen and Hartnell, but they were traded for and signed prior to free agency...since that summer we haven't been big players on the free agent market.

Great news if you're a small market club.

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08-03-2009, 10:01 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
because of the cap hit.
if this was a 7 year contract at say 6 million per the league wouldnt even be coming anywhere near it.
But the Flyers are paying Pronger at far below what the average salary is for one of the best defenseman in the league at 4.92
I don't agree with that statement... Reason being is that an athlete is not like the average workers like you and I. Now more than ever, NHL players in the Cap Era are being paid for what they are worth at that stage of their career... or at least that is the aim, and even more so with the older players who aren't subject to possible poaching Offer Sheets... If Pronger were to play until he was 42, as is the stated and contracted plan -- and by the NHL CBA rules the Cap obligation period -- he surely wouldn't be playing at the same ability and value at the end of the contract period. Salary-wise Pronger will be getting a very fair yearly compensation in the early years... and both sides have agreed that he is worth a diminished dollar compensation at the end. The Richards 12 year contract even went as far as starting out lower and then building to an apex, and then decreasing, IIRC.

I agree totally with Jester on this -- mark this date down on your calendar -- If the Flyers would be off the hook, not subject to the 35+ provision, I could see cries of circumvention... as it is, they are not really circumvention their Cap obligation as they will be accounting for it the complete length of the deal. Hossa's contract is an entirely different animal though; the Flyers should not be made to justify their actions because the Hawks may have been pulling off a shady deal.

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08-03-2009, 10:07 AM
  #97
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I don't know if this has been mentioned but why doesnt the NHL look at Ohlunds contract?

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08-03-2009, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Investigating something is illegal?

If the Blackhawks and Hossa have an under-the-table agreement that he will retire before that contract is over and years were tacked onto the contract purely to lower the cap hit during the years Hossa intends to play, then that is not an "honest" contract and is purely designed to circumvent the cap.



Because if they're paying $8M now on a long-term contract with a $6M cap hit, it means they're going to save in some future years. Moreover, given the types of players we're talking about on these deals, it allows them to build marketing strategies around high-end talent in the long-term. And, as said, if the ownership group is thinking long term, they can assume some spending above their self-imposed cap for future spending below.

Cem on, this is America...do it on credit for now!

Now, a small market team might be less willing to give out such a deal to someone like Hossa who will be relatively old at the tail end of the contract, but they are now capable of locking up their franchise players to long-term contracts that take them through their prime.

I also think the larger issue that is getting ignored here, as noted, is that you're seeing the "big market" teams cease being big players on the free agent market. The ONLY premier free agent the Flyers have signed since the lockout is Briere. You can include Timonen and Hartnell, but they were traded for and signed prior to free agency...since that summer we haven't been big players on the free agent market.

Great news if you're a small market club.
While the bolded part is technically correct... In essence the Timonen and Hartnell deals really fit the bill for being free agent signing... And I would argue that Pronger is kinda/sorta one also. The Flyers were competing against projected suiters next season for Pronger; the Flyers will pay him a high salary in all probability on the lines of an open market dealing... minus some HT discounting and security benefits that Pronger is getting with an early deal.

While you are correct, the big market Flyers still taking big plunges... only they are doing so in a more creative manner, as the Timonen, Hartnell and Pronger deals have proven. IMO, we have to admire them for that.

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08-03-2009, 10:18 AM
  #99
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While the bolded part is technically correct... In essence the Timonen and Hartnell deals really fit the bill for being free agent signing... And I would argue that Pronger is kinda/sorta one also. The Flyers were competing against projected suiters next season for Pronger; the Flyers will pay him a high salary in all probability on the lines of an open market dealing... minus some HT discounting and security benefits that Pronger is getting with an early deal.

While you are correct, the big market Flyers still taking big plunges... only they are doing so in a more creative manner, as the Timonen, Hartnell and Pronger deals have proven. IMO, we have to admire them for that.
Which is why I said you can include Timonen and Hartnell.

As to Pronger, however, he explicitly cannot be included in any discussion of free agent signings. They traded multiple assets for him (with one year remaining on his contract) and then signed him to an extension specifically so they would not have to compete against other teams on a contract. Now, they certainly were working that contract out in the pool of contracts that other teams are signing, but Chris Pronger was not an UFA.

Are the Flyers an aggressive team trying to compete? Absolutely, but they haven't been a team out aggressively on the open market helping to drive up prices since the summer of Briere, Timonen, and Hartnell.

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08-03-2009, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Which is why I said you can include Timonen and Hartnell.

As to Pronger, however, he explicitly cannot be included in any discussion of free agent signings. They traded multiple assets for him (with one year remaining on his contract) and then signed him to an extension specifically so they would not have to compete against other teams on a contract. Now, they certainly were working that contract out in the pool of contracts that other teams are signing, but Chris Pronger was not an UFA.

Are the Flyers an aggressive team trying to compete? Absolutely, but they haven't been a team out aggressively on the open market helping to drive up prices since the summer of Briere, Timonen, and Hartnell.
Sorry to not acknowledge your concession on Kimo and Hartnell.

I not going to argue technicalities because that is not really in questions -- how we categorize them is nowhere near as important as the final result... which can agree on -- They have spent assets to reduce the possible cost, that is true... My only point was that big market teams that are dedicated and innovative, such as the Flyers, will always be in the mix for the big ticket players that they target... Less creative organizations, no matter the market size, will be impacted by the Cap... Teams such as the Flyers, Rangers, Leafs, Wings, etc., will always, IMO, be in the hunt and mix for desired bi ticket players... They will move Cap space and assets, and arrange compensation... and take gambles -- such as the Flyers obtaining rights prior to negotiating extensions -- Not all gambles will pan out, and not all teams will be successful... but, IMO, the 'players' in the 'Old' NHL will still be players in the 'New' NHL... Look at the Rags moving Gomez after they were seemingly stuck with a bad contract... If a team wants to be active, and are creative and willing to make daring moves, they will do so.

Again, I am not really arguing with you where you are technically spot on... I am just stating my belief that some teams will always be active... conversely, some will always have a small market mentality in their actions. The so called big markets strut as such no matter what... They MAKE things happen, rather than await the World to come to them... Not to say that success will always follow... Just sayin'.

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