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Round 2, Vote 2 (2009 update)

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Old
08-03-2009, 06:11 PM
  #1
FissionFire
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Round 2, Vote 2 (2009 update)

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 15 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 10 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (36):
BM67, Canadiens1958, Canadiens Fan, cottonking, DaveG, Dennis_Bonvie, EllisToLeafsNation, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, Jekyll, Jungosi, Kyle McMahon, lextune, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, NOTENOUGHBREWER, overpass, papershoes, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, quoipourquoi, Radovsky, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shirtless Joe, Spitfire11, Sturminator, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGoldenJet, tommygunn, Triffy, ushvinder, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

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Old
08-03-2009, 07:30 PM
  #2
FissionFire
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*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 18 will begin now and debates will run through Sunday 8/9. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Sunday 8/9, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots. Please submit all ballots via PM to FissionFire or email them to hohtop100@yahoo.com

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 15 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 2 will be for places 11 through 20 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Bobby Clarke
Phil Esposito
Glenn Hall
Dominik Hasek
Jaromir Jagr
Leonard "Red" Kelly
Guy Lafleur
Nicklas Lidstrom
Ted Lindsay
Stan Mikita
Howie Morenz
Jacques Plante
Denis Potvin
Patrick Roy
Terry Sawchuk

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08-03-2009, 07:40 PM
  #3
God Bless Canada
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Just a quick glance at this round, my top 10 will be:

*Howie Morenz: No question in my mind the player in this round of voting who had the greatest overall impact on the game. Explosive, ultra-talented centre played with grit and flair.
*Jacques Plante: Probably did more than any goalie ever. Not just in terms of awards and championships, but in terms of what he meant to the position.
Patrick Roy: The ultimate big game goalie. I don't think any goalie has ever topped Roy's 1993 post-season performance. Not that I've seen. Regular season accolades are of secondary importance with Roy. Three Conn Smythe rings, and the missing piece for Colorado on his fourth championship.
*Guy Lafleur: An explosive offensive dynamo who could beat a team any way you could conceive. A magician in the regular season whose playoff production didn't tail off in remarkable six-year run.
*Terry Sawchuk: Did a lot of things that nobody came close to matching for a lot of years. Tremendous peak and longevity.
*Stan Mikita: Tremendous skill level and a tenacious, fierce competitor. Holds the record for highest PIM total in a Hart-winning season.
*Ted Lindsay: One of hockey's all-time great competitors and leaders who brought outstanding skill level. Pound-for-pound, the toughest player ever, and maybe hockey's greatest competitor.
*Denis Potvin: The cornerstone and the franchise player for the Islanders dynasty who brough world class offensive skill and plenty of toughness.
*Red Kelly: One of the great careers in hockey history. From an outstanding two-way defenceman who dominated the game offensively, to a savvy playmaking two-way centre. I believe he has the most Cup rings of any player who didn't play for Montreal, and he played a key role in all of them.
*Dominik Hasek:One of the most remarkable careers in NHL history. His aggressiveness, quickness and bravado are unmatched in NHL history. He was incredible, and he knew it. Few goalies can match his eight-year run of success. (Note: this vote will be under protest. No way should Hasek be ahead of Mark Messier. And Messier should be an option before Espo, Clarke and Jagr).


Last edited by God Bless Canada: 08-03-2009 at 07:49 PM.
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Old
08-03-2009, 07:47 PM
  #4
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Hopefully Jagr will make the top 20 and Lafluer won't, his career is so much better, Lafluer fans can make all the excuses they want, Jagr was just better than him.

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08-03-2009, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
*Mark Messier: A polarizing player, but his ability to dominate in the playoffs is nearly unmatched. Great regular season record, unquestionably great playoff record. Incredible strength, power skating and toughness to go with offensive ability.
I think you need to read the list again.

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Old
08-03-2009, 07:51 PM
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God Bless Canada
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I think you need to read the list again.
I did. I naturally assumed that a guy who did what Messier did, when the games mattered the most, and played the way he did, would automatically be in the top 25 players of all-time.

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08-03-2009, 08:01 PM
  #7
FissionFire
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Apparently you were in the minority with that opinion

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08-03-2009, 08:06 PM
  #8
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 18 will begin now and debates will run through Sunday 8/9. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Sunday 8/9, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots. Please submit all ballots via PM to FissionFire or email them to hohtop100@yahoo.com

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 15 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 2 will be for places 11 through 20 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Bobby Clarke
Phil Esposito
Glenn Hall
Dominik Hasek
Jaromir Jagr
Leonard "Red" Kelly
Guy Lafleur
Nicklas Lidstrom
Ted Lindsay
Stan Mikita
Howie Morenz
Jacques Plante
Denis Potvin
Patrick Roy
Terry Sawchuk
Do we get to see how the top 10 finished?

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08-03-2009, 09:05 PM
  #9
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#'s 11 -20 Eligibles With Comments

Ranked in relative order from the eligible list

Howie Morenz
Surprised that he is still eligible. Managed to adapt his game to the various rule changes during his career and was successful.

Jacques Plante
Surprised that he is still eligible.Excellent statistical career with a history of superior and winning Stanley Cup performances. Changed the way goaltenders play the game. Great innovator.

Patrick Roy
A winner. Found ways to win Stanley Cups with so-so teams as a rookie and throughout his career. Second highest win total in NHL history. Started the latest trend in goalie styles, imitated by many from the "Quebec School".

Leonard "Red" Kelly outstanding at two positions - defense and center. Within three seasons of his arrival in Detroit and Toronto became a key part of dynasty teams. Facilitated Borje Salming's adaptation to the North American game.

Denis Potvin
Classic 1970's defenseman, lacked Orr's skating skills. Leadership and toughness. Managed to unite an Islander defense that always played better than the sum of its parts.

Terry Sawchuk
Incredible talent but troubled. Sadly the mask came along 10 seasons too late. Overall impressive career stats and Stanley Cup resume.

Bobby Clarke
Overcame medical biases to star in the NHL. Great leadership skills, cheapshot artist extraordinaire who would not back it up. Much better players like Bryan Trottier and Henri Richard should be listed ahead of him

Guy Lafleur
Me-me-me-me. Could never fit 100% into a team game. Had some great performances when his ego was challenged - Milbury in the playoffs against Boston, but relied on other players(Lemaire, Big 3) picking-up the slack he created. Simply got older but did not mature. Minimal leadership qualities. Play suffered once Bowman left and responsible players retired. Took advantage of weak coaches until Jacques Lemaire arrived. Lafleur simply quit.Nice six year peak but.................

Ted Lindsay
Winner and performer. One of the greatest left wingers. High risk, high reward. Tough. Fought for player's rights(union).

Stan Mikita
Excellent offensive performer, playmaker and scorer.Overrated defensively. Cost his team with his fiesty play first few years of his career esp. 1965 playoffs.

Phil Esposito
Charismatic in his own way. Leadership qualities. Outstanding scorer who found a perfect fit in Boston.

Glenn Hall
Incredible consecutive game streak for a goalie. Impressive but a few breaks would have helped him come playoff time. Evidenced by his improved performance once he started sharing the workload. Some great playoff duels with Jacques Plante, Johnny Bower, Terry Sawchuk but then would have horrific games allowing 6 - 8 goals, or four goals in five minutes.

Niklas Lidstrom
The best defenseman overall since the European influence started in the early 1990's. Took awhile to establish himself. Lack of a physical game produces defensive errors that are hard to explain.
Supports offense rather than generating it from the defense.Has leadership qualities and knows what it takes to win for the most part - the physical part.If he had some Ulf in him definite top 10.

Jaromir Jagr
Offensive compiler. Won two cups with a Pittsburgh team led by great players like Mario Lemieux, Ron Francis,Bryan Trottier but when his turn came did not step up as a leader in Pittsburgh or elsewhere. Rarely in shape, often a defensive liability.

Dominik Hasek
An artist. Improvised. Defined high risk, high reward for a goalie.
No specific style. If you buy the smoke and mirror stats combined with paradoxical arguments then you may like him but game in game out other goalers offered more.

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Old
08-03-2009, 09:06 PM
  #10
TheDevilMadeMe
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Wow, I'm really surprised to see Bourque sneak in ahead of Morenz this team.

I'm also surprised to see no Messier on the list. He's definitely ahead of Jagr and Esposito in my book.

I think I would prefer it if we had 20 guys to vote into 10 spots - twice as many names as there are spots (like last time), but I guess that would get out of control. Seems like it is giving too much power to the pre-discussion lists to have 2/3 of the guys in any given round get in. Anyway....

_____________________________________

Things I'm definitely keeping in mind when I vote this time:

1. Roy, Plante, and Hasek are the top tier of goalies. They are clear cut ahead of the next 3, so I probably won't have Sawchuk or Hall in my top 20.

2. Lafleur was the widely regarded as best player in the league for a five year period, and Mikita was never really the consensus best player in the league at any given time. So I have Lafleur over Mikita. Lafleur is also over Potvin, as they peaked at about the same time and Lafleur was considered better.

3. Jagr will be pretty low on my list. He has the talent to be a Top 15 guy, but not the attitude. I forget who said it, but can you win a Cup with Jagr as your best player? I'm not so sure.

4. I think Lindsay is partly a product of the Detroit dynasty - I think he's about at Steve Yzerman level, in other words, not quite Top 20.

5. Lidstrom is the best overall PLAYER at any position since Mario Lemieux, taking into account offense, defense, regular season, playoffs, leadership, everything. Since the last round of voting, has two more Norris Top 3s, including another win. Oh, and he captained his team to the Cup with an entirely different group of guys from the Yzerman/Fedorov team. He should be a lock to make the Top 15, but the reluctance to rate active players as high as perhaps they should be might keep him back.

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Old
08-03-2009, 09:36 PM
  #11
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4. I think Lindsay is partly a product of the Detroit dynasty - I think he's about at Steve Yzerman level, in other words, not quite Top 20.
Lindsay made his mark before the dynasty and before Howe became a dominating player. Howe didn't establish himself in Detroit until 1949-50. Lindsay was 24 that season. He already had a 1st and 2nd team all-star nod, 3 top 10 goal finishes (1,2,6), and 2 top 10 point finishes (3,9). Not a bad resume for a kid that's not even 24 yet.

Take a look at the 1947-48 season. Who was inflating his numbers? Howe was 19 and not yet a top player. Kelly was 20 and not quite a top defenseman yet (Quackenbush was outscoring him). Was Sid Abel making Lindsay a retro Richard winner? Heck, Jim McFadden was second on the team in goals and points to Lindsay that season.

Lindsay was a bit older than the other dynasty Wings like Sawchuk, Howe, and Kelly. He peaked a little sooner which helps us see that even before the Wings became a machine he was a force in his own right in the league.

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08-03-2009, 09:40 PM
  #12
TheDevilMadeMe
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My Top 7 :

1. Howie Morenz
The consensus best forward in hockey history prior to Maurice Richard. Huge impact on the game.

2. Patrick Roy
He has a regular season peak almost as good as Hasek's if you adjust his stats for the era (late 80s). And his playoffs... blow away every other goaltender in history. And it's not just the 3 Smythes. When he won his first 2 Cups, he was the best player on his team by a good margin. When he won his second 2 Cups, he was a Top 2 player on his team by a good margin over #3. Is there another goaltender in history who won 4 Cups while being a Top 2 player on his team in the playoffs each time? I don't even think any of the guys on dynasty teams can come close. Patrick is in the conversation for best playoff performer of all time, regardless of position.

Patrick's historical significance is often underrated around here. More than any other one man, he is responsible for the dead puck era. He brought about the modern age of goaltending in at least three ways - 1) he made the position glamorous, inspiring a generation of great athletes to actually want to become goalies; 2) he popularized the butterfly - a huge reason scoring is down and will stay down; 3) he was a pioneer with regards to "creative use of equipment."

3. Nicklas Lidstrom
Probably my most controversial pick. I think people get hung up in the "lack of competition" from other dmen and forget that in the most competive era with the deepest talent pool in hockey history, Lidstrom has been the best overall hockey player regardless of position since Mario Lemieux. I'll make a more detailed case for him later.

4. Jacques Plante
The best of the Original 6 by a good margin (I was convinced by last year's discussion). I may very well end up flipping him and Lidstrom. I have a few concerns about how he fell off the face of the earth for a few years with the Rangers, but then he came back strong late in his career. His stats might be very slightly inflated due to playing on the best team of all time.

5. Guy Lafleur
He suffers from a lack of longevity, but in his peak, he was the consensus best player in the league for 5-6 years. He was the offensive engine of the 70s Canadiens dynasty and was absolutely dominant in the playoffs. The best playoff producer among forwards who are left.

6. Dennis Potvin
Very similar to Lafleur in that he has an amazing peak (at about the same time) but fell off relatively quickly (though not as fast as Lafleur). Still, he has to be behind Lafleur, as nobody would have taken Dennis over Guy at their peaks.

7. Dominik Hasek
More negatives than anyone on this list but Jagr, but his numbers are just too good to drop any lower.

The musy middle (Where I'm most open to arguments)

8. Red Kelly - fantastic at both dman and forward

9. Stan Mikita - more longevity, less peak than some others on the list.

10. Phil Esposito - set scoring records before Gretzky, and great internationally. His playoff record is mixed, however.

11. Jaromir Jagr - more negatives than anyone on this list, but the talent is undeniable.

Shouldn't make the list yet:
12. Bobby Clarke -short peak and not as good offensively as a lot of the guys here. And while he was elite defensively in the NHL, his scoring dropped significantly in the playoffs. Oh, and frankly it feels wrong to me to rank him above Kharlamov considering what he had to resort to in order to defend against him.

13. Terry Sawchuk - Possibly the best goaltending peak over, but it's hard to ignore the fact that he did almost nothing after being removed from the Detroit dynasty. He's in the 2nd tier of goalies with Brodeur and Hall and deserves to be in the 21-30 range.

14. Ted Lindsay - I'm going to go into this in more detail later, but I think it's telling that his scoring plummeted when he no longer played with Howe. He was a star before Howe got there, but without Howe, I don't think he would be considered a Top 20 player. I have him in the mid 30s with Yzerman.[/B]

15. Glenn Hall - Like Sawchuk, he's a tier below the Big 3 goaltenders. Worst playoff performer of the Big 6 goalies knocks him below Sawchuk and Brodeur in my book.

It really pains me to have to choose between Esposito and Jagr for the 10th spot over playoff warriors Messier and Bossy.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-03-2009 at 11:42 PM.
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Old
08-03-2009, 09:46 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Niklas Lidstrom
The best defenseman overall since the European influence started in the early 1990's. Took awhile to establish himself. Lack of a physical game produces defensive errors that are hard to explain.Supports offense rather than generating it from the defense.Has leadership qualities and knows what it takes to win for the most part - the physical part.If he had some Ulf in him definite top 10.
This is just absurd. Produces errors that are hard to explain? I have no idea what you are talking about. Lidstrom plays almost perfect positional defense, possibly the least prone to mistakes of all the top dmen after Harvey. He proved in the 1997 finals that you don't need to be physical to be elite defensively. And I'm saying this as a huge fan of Scott Stevens and his type of defense.

Quote:
Jaromir Jagr
Offensive compiler. Won two cups with a Pittsburgh team led by great players like Mario Lemieux, Ron Francis,Bryan Trottier but when his turn came did not step up as a leader in Pittsburgh or elsewhere. Rarely in shape, often a defensive liability.

Dominik Hasek
An artist. Improvised. Defined high risk, high reward for a goalie.
No specific style. If you buy the smoke and mirror stats combined with paradoxical arguments then you may like him but game in game out other goalers offered more.

These two guys have more negatives than anyone else on the list, but come on. The Pittsburgh Cup teams were led by Mario Lemieux. Jagr was at least as important as Francis and Trottier.

Also, I find it interesting that the last three players on your list are the three Europeans.

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08-03-2009, 09:54 PM
  #14
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Hopefully Jagr will make the top 20 and Lafluer won't, his career is so much better, Lafluer fans can make all the excuses they want, Jagr was just better than him.
Jagr is a pretty polarizing guy to me. In terms of talent he's better then Lafluer. He was a better scorer then Lafluer. But the fact of the matter is that after Jagr cashed in with his big contract he was pretty widely known as a malcontent that could be depended on to show up only when he wanted to. As I said in the last time that Jagr came up for debate, he's hockey's answer to "Manny being Manny" for me. When he wants to play, actually wants to show up, he was borderline unstoppable and was arguably a generational talent. But the trick always was keeping Jagr happy later in his career. The Caps couldn't do it. The Rangers had to run Aaron Ward, a player that has never before or since been reported as a "problem", out of town in order to keep Jagr happy.

Despite Jagr's great talent, I have no qualms about dropping him in my rankings because of his actions off the ice. I still don't know just how my top 10 for this round will break down, but Jagr will most likely not be in it. I could honestly see him at the bottom of my list with how many negatives are around the guy despite his immense talent.

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08-03-2009, 10:01 PM
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I'm also surprised to see no Messier on the list. He's definitely ahead of Jagr and Esposito in my book.


4. I think Lindsay is partly a product of the Detroit dynasty - I think he's about at Steve Yzerman level, in other words, not quite Top 20.

5. Lidstrom is the best overall PLAYER at any position since Mario Lemieux, taking into account offense, defense, regular season, playoffs, leadership, everything. Since the last round of voting, has two more Norris Top 3s, including another win. Oh, and he captained his team to the Cup with an entirely different group of guys from the Yzerman/Fedorov team. He should be a lock to make the Top 15, but the reluctance to rate active players as high as perhaps they should be might keep him back.
1 : There are many ways to interpret Messier's career. One of them is that : frankly, except for physical play, was he that much better than Henri Richard? I just think he wasn't, and while Richard was a great player, I don't think he should get consideration before Top-40. Messier was a wee bit better, meaning that he shouldn't get any consideration before Top-25. IMO.

4 : FF basically answered what I would.

5 : I don't think Lidstrom should be a lock to make the Top-15 (not any better than any guy mentionned in round 1), but I think he did enough to be considered a late-entry in this round (see, 19-20). He's behind Kelly in my books... But I think it's enough to get him in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I did. I naturally assumed that a guy who did what Messier did, when the games mattered the most, and played the way he did, would automatically be in the top 25 players of all-time.
Well... I kindof answered above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
My Top 7 :


12. Bobby Clarke -short peak and not as good offensively as a lot of the guys here. And while he was elite defensively in the NHL, his scoring dropped significantly in the playoffs. Oh, and frankly it feels wrong to me to rank him below Kharlamov considering what he had to resort to in order to defend against him.
I know it kinda sucks, but Clarke simply achieved more while playing in the best professionnal league.

For me...

Spots 1 to 6 (or more like, 11 to 16) are already decided and these won't change.
Three guys are also out before the voting even starts.


Last edited by MXD: 08-03-2009 at 10:07 PM.
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Old
08-03-2009, 10:16 PM
  #16
Canadiens1958
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Niklas Lidstom

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is just absurd. Produces errors that are hard to explain? I have no idea what you are talking about. Lidstrom plays almost perfect positional defense, possibly the least prone to mistakes of all the top dmen after Harvey. He proved in the 1997 finals that you don't need to be physical to be elite defensively. And I'm saying this as a huge fan of Scott Stevens and his type of defense.
This is how a player like R.J. Umberger should be played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzmI2...om=PL&index=84

On the other hand this is NOT how you play R.J. Umberger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhzh...ure=PlayList&p

Watch Lidstrom on the last goal, Umberger comes down the right wing. Lidstrom has at least three points where he can take Umberger out of the play physically and cleanly YET he allows R.J.Umberger to pull the old "Maurice Richard buttonhook move" and score on his forehand.

Lidstrom knows that the Wings are playing Joey MacDonald in nets, 3rd - 5th string goalie so it is up to him to step-up.

Players play differently when there is no threat of a bodycheck, Lidstrom's style which produces errors that are hard to explain.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-03-2009 at 10:28 PM. Reason: typo
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Old
08-03-2009, 10:22 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
This is how a player like R.J. Umberger should be played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzmI2...om=PL&index=84

On the other hand this is NOT how you play R.J. Umberger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhzh...ure=PlayList&p

Watch Lidstrom on the last goal, Umberger comes down the right wing. Lidstrom has at least three points where he can take Umberger out of the play physically and cleanly YET he allows R.J.Umberger to pull the old "Maurice Richard buttonhook move" and score on his forehand.

Lidstrom knows that the Wings are playing Joey MacDonald in nets, 3rd - 5th string goalie so it is up to him to step-up.

Players play differently when there is no threat of a bodycheck, Lidstroms style which produces errors that are hard to explain.
It's not that you don't bring a valid point -- it's just that Lidstrom didn't play that well on that sequence.

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08-03-2009, 10:23 PM
  #18
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Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 15 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 10 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.
Are you sure? I mean...
That's a ******** of messages.

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08-03-2009, 10:24 PM
  #19
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As far as I'm concerned, Morenz should be everybody's #1 for this round.. and if he's not I'm interested in why you feel that way and who you place higher?

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08-03-2009, 10:24 PM
  #20
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My Top 7 :

1. Howie Morenz
The consensus best forward in hockey history prior to Maurice Richard. Huge impact on the game.

2. Patrick Roy
He has a regular season peak almost as good as Hasek's if you adjust his stats for the era (late 80s). And his playoffs... blow away every other goaltender in history. And it's not just the 3 Smythes. When he won his first 2 Cups, he was the best player on his team by a good margin. When he won his second 2 Cups, he was a Top 2 player on his team by a good margin over #3. Is there another goaltender in history who won 4 Cups while being a Top 2 player on his team in the playoffs each time? I don't even think any of the guys on dynasty teams can come close. Patrick is in the conversation for best playoff performer of all time, regardless of position.

Patrick's historical significance is often underrated around here. More than any other one man, he is responsible for the dead puck era. He brought about the modern age of goaltending in at least three ways - 1) he made the position glamorous, inspiring a generation of great athletes to actually want to become goalies; 2) he popularized the butterfly - a huge reason scoring is down and will stay down; 3) he was a pioneer with regards to "creative use of equipment."

3. Nicklas Lidstrom
Probably my most controversial pick. I think people get hung up in the "lack of competition" from other dmen and forget that in the most competive era with the deepest talent pool in hockey history, Lidstrom has been the best overall hockey player regardless of position since Mario Lemieux. I'll make a more detailed case for him later.

4. Jacques Plante
The best of the Original 6 by a good margin (I was convinced by last year's discussion). I may very well end up flipping him and Lidstrom. I have a few concerns about how he fell off the face of the earth for a few years with the Rangers, but then he came back strong late in his career. His stats might be very slightly inflated due to playing on the best team of all time.

5. Guy Lafleur
He suffers from a lack of longevity, but in his peak, he was the consensus best player in the league for 5-6 years. He was the offensive engine of the 70s Canadiens dynasty and was absolutely dominant in the playoffs. The best playoff producer among forwards who are left.

6. Dennis Potvin
Very similar to Lafleur in that he has an amazing peak (at about the same time) but fell off relatively quickly (though not as fast as Lafleur). Still, he has to be behind Lafleur, as nobody would have taken Dennis over Guy at their peaks.

7. Dominik Hasek
More negatives than anyone on this list but Jagr, but his numbers are just too good to drop any lower.

The musy middle (Where I'm most open to arguments)

8. Red Kelly - fantastic at both dman and forward

9. Stan Mikita - more longevity, less peak than some others on the list.

10. Phil Esposito - set scoring records before Gretzky, and great internationally. His playoff record is mixed, however.

11. Jaromir Jagr - more negatives than anyone on this list, but the talent is undeniable.

Shouldn't make the list yet:
12. Bobby Clarke -short peak and not as good offensively as a lot of the guys here. And while he was elite defensively in the NHL, his scoring dropped significantly in the playoffs. Oh, and frankly it feels wrong to me to rank him below Kharlamov considering what he had to resort to in order to defend against him.

13. Terry Sawchuk - Possibly the best goaltending peak over, but it's hard to ignore the fact that he did almost nothing after being removed from the Detroit dynasty. He's in the 2nd tier of goalies with Brodeur and Hall and deserves to be in the 21-30 range.

14. Ted Lindsay - I'm going to go into this in more detail later, but I think it's telling that his scoring plummeted when he no longer played with Howe. He was a star before Howe got there, but without Howe, I don't think he would be considered a Top 20 player. I have him in the mid 30s with Yzerman.[/B]

15. Glenn Hall - Like Sawchuk, he's a tier below the Big 3 goaltenders. Worst playoff performer of the Big 6 goalies knocks him below Sawchuk and Brodeur in my book.

It really pains me to have to choose between Esposito and Jagr for the 10th spot over playoff warriors Messier and Bossy.
Stan Mikita doesnt have the great peak? He won more art ross trophies than Lafluer, while competing against better comp. Was an elite player for 5-6 years longer than Lalfleur.

I'm sorry when was Guy Lafluer the consensus best for 5-6 years? In 1975 Bobby Orr was easily #1. In 1976 Bobby Clarke won the hart trophy in a landslide. In 1979 Bryan Trottier was the best player and in 1980 it was between Gretzky and Dionne.

Guy Lafluer was the best forward in 1977 and 1978, that's about it. He's got to be the most overrated 'elite' player of all times.

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08-03-2009, 10:24 PM
  #21
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I think I nearly threw up in my mouth when I saw Jagr rated ahead of Messier. No way that should ever happen.

It would help Lidstrom's stock if he was as dominant defensively as he is, while playing a more physical brand of game. But as it is, he's still been the best defensive defenceman in the league for several years. (For my money, ever since Scott Stevens retired). I won't be voting for him this round, but it is incredible when a guy can be, at once, one of the truly elite offensive and defensive defencemen in the game.

Jagr is polarizing. No question about it. He wasn't a big-time impact player for the Pens in 1991. But you could see the skill he had back then. He was "Mario Jr." after 1992. I'd say that Lemieux, Barrasso and Francis meant more to that Cup run in 1992, and you could make a point for Tocchet from the perspective that it was the acquisition of Tocchet and Kjell Samuelsson that turned the Pens season around.

Jagr's problem is that his work ethic and his attitude weren't always there. He was sulking, and struggling, in 2000-01 when Lemieux came out of retirement. Mario's return helped for a while. Then Jagr sulked again. His numbers weren't bad in Washington, but his effort and his attitude were a problem.

I'll probably be more active this round, because I see a player worth campaigning for: the great Ted Lindsay, and, to a lesser extent, the great Red Kelly. Did Lindsay benefit from playing with Howe? Absolutely. Anybody would. But Howe benefitted from playing with Lindsay, too.

Lindsay was sixth in the league in goals in 46-47, when Howe was a rookie. And he led the league in goals in 47-48, when Howe was a 19-year-old sophomore.

I don't think you can merely say "Gordie Howe" when looking at Lindsay's statistical downturn following the trade to Chicago. For one thing, he was in his 30s when he was dealt. He'd played a ton of hockey already at that point in his career. And he wasn't happy to be dealt to Chicago. The Hawks were a mess. They hadn't had a winning season since 45-46. They'd made the playoffs once since then. A guy like Lindsay, who hated to lose, it wasn't a positive to be going to the worst organization in the league for the past decade. For what it's worth, the Hawks did have some young talent, and as they improved, Lindsay felt a little more comfortable. He was ninth in assists at age 33 in 58-59.

Here's the bottom line for me when it comes to Ted Lindsay. Only player to lead the league in goals, assists, points and PIMs. Top three in goals four times. Top three in assists five times. Top three in points five times. And he did all that playing the way he did, leading the way he did. As I've said before, he might be the most competitive guy to ever play the game. Absolutely hated to lose. There are several guys who have at least as many top threes in goals, assists and points as Lindsay. But none of them accumulated them while playing the game the way Lindsay did it.

If he was "partly a product of the Detroit dynasty," then that might explain the top 10 finishes. But all the top threes? No. He wasn't partly a product of the Detroit dynasty. (Plus, of course, Howe, Kelly, Sawchuk and the other fantastic players they had). Detroit's dynasty was a product of Ted Lindsay. He wasn't their best player. But he was their leader.

There has only been one Ted Lindsay in the history of the game. I don't think we'll ever see another one. And anyone who plays the game at the NHL level will be happy that there won't be another Terrible Ted.

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08-03-2009, 10:26 PM
  #22
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Lindsay was a bit older than the other dynasty Wings like Sawchuk, Howe, and Kelly. He peaked a little sooner which helps us see that even before the Wings became a machine he was a force in his own right in the league.
Good point. This is IMO what clearly (as in, +- 25 ranks) sets him apart from Dickie Moore (well, if you take out longevity).

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08-03-2009, 10:27 PM
  #23
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You are blaming a 36 year old Lidstrom on a bad-angle goal that a competent goalie should stop? Doesn't that seem a little extreme? I'm sure if you go through game footage of Bourque, Harvey, Orr, or anyone else you can find plenty of mistakes even more egregioius.

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08-03-2009, 10:35 PM
  #24
TheDevilMadeMe
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As far as I'm concerned, Morenz should be everybody's #1 for this round.. and if he's not I'm interested in why you feel that way and who you place higher?
The only argument I can see is if you really think one of the goalies is better than the others. I considered Roy over Morenz, but the gap between Morenz and the other skaters who are left is just too high.

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08-03-2009, 10:37 PM
  #25
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Stan Mikita doesnt have the great peak? He won more art ross trophies than Lafluer, while competing against better comp. Was an elite player for 5-6 years longer than Lalfleur.

I'm sorry when was Guy Lafluer the consensus best for 5-6 years? In 1975 Bobby Orr was easily #1. In 1976 Bobby Clarke won the hart trophy in a landslide. In 1979 Bryan Trottier was the best player and in 1980 it was between Gretzky and Dionne.

Guy Lafluer was the best forward in 1977 and 1978, that's about it. He's got to be the most overrated 'elite' player of all times.
Mikita does have a great peak. That's why he's a Top 20 player of all time. But he wasn't a gamebreaker in quite the same way Lafleur was.

And I'm talking about the period between Orr and Gretzky - Lafleur was the best player in the league even if he didn't win the Hart every year.

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