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KHL wants Lampman back

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Old
08-04-2009, 08:01 PM
  #26
RandV
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Originally Posted by slovakiaforever View Post
First of all I´m not idiotic, I got what you meant, I was expecting you to name the other Radulovs and Hudlers except for Radulov and Hudler themselves.

For the bolded part just : And this is exactly why the NHL is considered to be the most arrogant league in the hockey world.
Quite obviously the fans aren´t any better. Ahh, well the apple doesn´t fall far from the tree.
Sometimes what's lost in all this league vs league is the players perspective, it really shows a distinct cultural divide too. The NHL doesn't 'steal' anyone. They've simply created the by far best professional hockey league to play in, and the hockey players, the actual talent that makes this whole industry work, voluntarily choose to come here.

It really all comes down to a simple concept. If you have a one in a million talent, who should benefit the most from it: yourself, your society, your boss? NHL fans aren't arrogant over here rather our social values in North America place the most value on the first option.

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08-04-2009, 08:37 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by slovakiaforever View Post
"The NHL respects the terms of individual player contracts in other leagues. The KHL has chosen not to respect NHL contracts"

Mr.Daly







And still the Russians are the bad guys here and you guys keep on repeating Radulov, that is just one player.

The NHL has done something like this numerous times and they´ve been doing things like this years before the Russians even thought of it.

I hope the European federations don´t sign the agreement with the NHL anytime soon, not until the NHL and the European federations/leagues will be treated equivalent.
Are we not talking about an agreement between the KHL and NHL? Poaching Alex Radulov directly after hashing out an agreement with a rival league is not going to go overwell, and instill faith, especially when the player poached is a high end talent. Using the "well the NHL did it to teams in the RSL" is petty, and that line of thinking will just continue to make things worse. The NHL shouldn't bend over for the KHL simply because players used to defect before the KHL was even formed.

Add to that that there really is no comparison between the calibre of the players, Lampman and Radulov and you get hypocrisy at its finest. The KHL doesn't seem to mind trying to pry away NHL talent, so why should the NHL care if their clubs do the same.

The agreement is pretty worthless... obviously.

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08-04-2009, 08:44 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
Why is this a fight between leagues who should be policing their own contracts instead of each others? Why isn't this a fight between the league that feels wronged and the player who bailed?

Seems like the leagues are the ones acting victimized by each other when it's the players who are making these choices despite already having a contract. If a player doesn't want to play in your league, that's not the other league's fault, it's your own fault or the player's fault. Respond accordingly. Suspend him. Seek damages.

Seeking official statements and finger pointing by the KHL is a publicity stunt more than an actual effort to get fair treatment. They would rather not have a transfer agreement because that would make them look smaller than they'd like to project.


right on the nose


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08-04-2009, 08:47 PM
  #29
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I wonder how many of these players would be skipping to the KHL if the NHL banned them for life for doing so?

You break a contract with the NHL...don't come back ever!

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08-04-2009, 09:22 PM
  #30
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You'd have to be an idiot to side with the NHL on this one.

Yes Radulov bolted. This was before an agreement was in place to honour each other's contracts. When that agreement was in place, they decided to exempt radulov from the impact of the deal because losing that issue was a deal-breaker for both sides.

Since then, there is the expectation that the leagues honour each others' contracts. During the life of this agreement, the NHL has stolen numerous prospects and current players. The KHL has only stolen one, Jiri Hudler, and the ONLY reason they did it is to put pressure on the NHL to live up to the agreement. They only approved the contract after the NHL swiped Kwiatkowski. Hopefully the NHL does the right thing and reject these contracts so that this agreement can be restored.

As for why a formal transfer agreement really isn't practical. There is one philosophical difference which prevents negotiations from being started. The NHL is stuck in the mentality that they are the #1 league, and they want an agreement whereby they have the freedom to take KHL players for a nominal fee. The KHL wants a bilateral agreement whereby KHL teams can sign NHL players for either a standardized or negotiated fee just like NHL teams can take KHL players. Even though it may be inevitable, the NHL cannot agree to this simply because it speeds up the process by which the KHL will become the best league in the world.

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08-04-2009, 09:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
You'd have to be an idiot to side with the NHL on this one.

Yes Radulov bolted. This was before an agreement was in place to honour each other's contracts. When that agreement was in place, they decided to exempt radulov from the impact of the deal because losing that issue was a deal-breaker for both sides.

Since then, there is the expectation that the leagues honour each others' contracts. During the life of this agreement, the NHL has stolen numerous prospects and current players. The KHL has only stolen one, Jiri Hudler, and the ONLY reason they did it is to put pressure on the NHL to live up to the agreement. They only approved the contract after the NHL swiped Kwiatkowski. Hopefully the NHL does the right thing and reject these contracts so that this agreement can be restored.

As for why a formal transfer agreement really isn't practical. There is one philosophical difference which prevents negotiations from being started. The NHL is stuck in the mentality that they are the #1 league, and they want an agreement whereby they have the freedom to take KHL players for a nominal fee. The KHL wants a bilateral agreement whereby KHL teams can sign NHL players for either a standardized or negotiated fee just like NHL teams can take KHL players. Even though it may be inevitable, the NHL cannot agree to this simply because it speeds up the process by which the KHL will become the best league in the world.
from what, never to a year less than never?

the KHL isn't even a business. for it to become the best league in the world it is going to have to become a business. as a toy, it's not possible.

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08-04-2009, 09:44 PM
  #32
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from what, never to a year less than never?

the KHL isn't even a business. for it to become the best league in the world it is going to have to become a business. as a toy, it's not possible.
Europe excluding Spain, Portugal, and Italy has twice the population as Canada+USA in half the geographical area. Hockey in europe faces competition from ONE major sport (Soccer) as opposed to three, soon to be 4 (Baseball, Football, Basketball, Soccer).

The KHL in its current form is a startup, burning cash to create an established business. It will not beat the NHL in its current form (24 teams in Russia). However, it is building a foundation to facilitate future expansion into Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, and eventually all of europe. You'll be looking at a league with something along the lines of 8 teams in Russia/Baltic, 3 in Czech, 2 in Slovakia, 2 in Hungary, 2 in Austria, 4 in Sweden, 3 in Finland, 2 in Denmark, 2 in Norway, 4 in Germany, 2 in the UK, 1 in Ireland, 2 in the Netherlands, 2 in Belgium, 4 in Switzerland, 2 in France, and 2 in Northern Italy.

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Old
08-04-2009, 09:51 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Europe excluding Spain, Portugal, and Italy has twice the population as Canada+USA in half the geographical area. Hockey in europe faces competition from ONE major sport (Soccer) as opposed to three, soon to be 4 (Baseball, Football, Basketball, Soccer).

The KHL in its current form is a startup, burning cash to create an established business. It will not beat the NHL in its current form (24 teams in Russia). However, it is building a foundation to facilitate future expansion into Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, and eventually all of europe. You'll be looking at a league with something along the lines of 8 teams in Russia/Baltic, 3 in Czech, 2 in Slovakia, 2 in Hungary, 2 in Austria, 4 in Sweden, 3 in Finland, 2 in Denmark, 2 in Norway, 4 in Germany, 2 in the UK, 1 in Ireland, 2 in the Netherlands, 2 in Belgium, 4 in Switzerland, 2 in France, and 2 in Northern Italy.
that is a long ways off. and you're putting teams in markets where they will not able to chase the "mothership" teams. Northern Italy? UK? Ireland? These are some of the places where the NHL does their opening week games and people say "WTF is Bettman doing? no one watches hockey there!"

They probably *would* do better in NA then.

until it becomes a business in that the ledger sheets aren't something that make the Coyotes blush and say "gee, we're not trying hard enough", the teams have actual valuations (what would a KHL team sell for at this point? the only value would be a vanity value), and there is actual revenue (whatever it is now must be tiny compared to expenses), it is not a viable business.

great for Russian billionaires who can afford it and have the monetary/moral support of the government, not so great for the outsiders.

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08-04-2009, 09:52 PM
  #34
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The real problem is the NHL doesn't really have any competition in terms of big hockey leagues, they have had the monopoly since the WHA closed down. Hopefully the KHL's "poaching" will make the NHL pull up their pants and give the players a reason to play in their league instead of the KHL's. If you open a burger joint near a McDonald's I think you'll do your best to steal some of its customers and do better than it in order to succeed.

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08-04-2009, 09:54 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Europe excluding Spain, Portugal, and Italy has twice the population as Canada+USA in half the geographical area. Hockey in europe faces competition from ONE major sport (Soccer) as opposed to three, soon to be 4 (Baseball, Football, Basketball, Soccer).

The KHL in its current form is a startup, burning cash to create an established business. It will not beat the NHL in its current form (24 teams in Russia). However, it is building a foundation to facilitate future expansion into Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, and eventually all of europe. You'll be looking at a league with something along the lines of 8 teams in Russia/Baltic, 3 in Czech, 2 in Slovakia, 2 in Hungary, 2 in Austria, 4 in Sweden, 3 in Finland, 2 in Denmark, 2 in Norway, 4 in Germany, 2 in the UK, 1 in Ireland, 2 in the Netherlands, 2 in Belgium, 4 in Switzerland, 2 in France, and 2 in Northern Italy.
I dont hate soccer, but it will never be a major sport. US soccer might have almost won gold at the Confederations Cup, but they will likely sink back down. the MLS brought in Beckham, but he didnt rise the popularity. I live near LA, and they barely sold any Beckham jersey, which happened to be the only soccer stuff they sold they sold, while they had a crapload of football, Dodger/Angel, King/Duck, USC/UCLA jerseys,sweatshirts, hats, etc. that they had. Not even Pele could help. MLS will not be big in the US like NHL,MLB,NFL,and NBA for a long, long time if ever.

And back on subject, get a dang agreement already.

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Old
08-04-2009, 09:59 PM
  #36
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just for the record... the Italian hockey league.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A_(ice_hockey)

this is like Bettman putting a team in Guatemala.

and I can't find anything about an Irish professional hockey league, other than a rumor post on here from a couple of years back that there *may* be one coming. I'm curious as to what your opinions on the Sun Belt teams are?

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08-04-2009, 10:08 PM
  #37
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that is a long ways off. and you're putting teams in markets where they will not able to chase the "mothership" teams. Northern Italy? UK? Ireland? These are some of the places where the NHL does their opening week games and people say "WTF is Bettman doing? no one watches hockey there!"

They probably *would* do better in NA then.

until it becomes a business in that the ledger sheets aren't something that make the Coyotes blush and say "gee, we're not trying hard enough", the teams have actual valuations (what would a KHL team sell for at this point? the only value would be a vanity value), and there is actual revenue (whatever it is now must be tiny compared to expenses), it is not a viable business.

great for Russian billionaires who can afford it and have the monetary/moral support of the government, not so great for the outsiders.
Of course its a long way off, but it would be stupid business for the NHL to not consider it a legitamite threat now. Otherwise it'll pick up the pace and they won't be able to stop it. Those "fringe" hockey markets would be the equivalent to a market like Phoenix...potentially propped up by the league to try and grow the game in a large market.

You can say that they aren't a threat until they show profits.... thats a very reactive and naive way of looking at things. Just about any startup will show losses in its first year, when you have a startup of this scale, you're looking at quite a few years of losses and fine tuning before it gets going. But ask yourself this, whats going to stop the KHL from expanding throughout europe? The cost to run a team may be too high right now, but they'll adjust as it suits their need. They are focused on taking down the NHL, and will make the adjustments neccessary to make that happen. They've already got the top 5 swedish teams looking to join in 2011.

Remember, the NHL started the same way.... toys for a bunch of guys with too much money and not enough hockey skill. Then the fans came, and it became a business.

As for Soccer, a few years ago I would've agreed that they'll never be a major sport in North America. But, you look at the competition for expansion cities and the success that these cities are having.... they are rapidly growing in popularity.

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Old
08-04-2009, 10:17 PM
  #38
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at some point the players need to wake up and not lock themselves into contracts they want to break a year later cause they aren't happy.

the NHL in NHLPA stands for National Hockey League. the NHLPA needs to take a stance and start removing privileges/rights to players who threaten to leave the NHL.
hmmmm....like you break an NHL contract your pension is null and void

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08-04-2009, 10:18 PM
  #39
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Of course its a long way off, but it would be stupid business for the NHL to not consider it a legitamite threat now. Otherwise it'll pick up the pace and they won't be able to stop it. Those "fringe" hockey markets would be the equivalent to a market like Phoenix...potentially propped up by the league to try and grow the game in a large market.

You can say that they aren't a threat until they show profits.... thats a very reactive and naive way of looking at things. Just about any startup will show losses in its first year, when you have a startup of this scale, you're looking at quite a few years of losses and fine tuning before it gets going. But ask yourself this, whats going to stop the KHL from expanding throughout europe? The cost to run a team may be too high right now, but they'll adjust as it suits their need. They are focused on taking down the NHL, and will make the adjustments neccessary to make that happen. They've already got the top 5 swedish teams looking to join in 2011.

Remember, the NHL started the same way.... toys for a bunch of guys with too much money and not enough hockey skill. Then the fans came, and it became a business.

As for Soccer, a few years ago I would've agreed that they'll never be a major sport in North America. But, you look at the competition for expansion cities and the success that these cities are having.... they are rapidly growing in popularity.
it's not that they can't expand, I am assuming they will dump the dead weight eventually for other Eastern European or Scandianvian teams, teams which are legit businesses and will help. but it doesn't change that the original teams are not viable
businesses and may never be, they're just arms of the Russian sports inititive and are essentially black holes.

it's that your long-term expansion plan was beyond ridiculous. there is no way there will be a pan-European league because the Western and Southern European places you mentioned are not legitimate hockey markets and would destroy any progress the league made. It's like the Bettman plan on a whole bunch of steriods.

I don't see how this works. I also don't see how the league, as a whole, will fail. It'll end up somewhere in the middle. But I do think that this being a successful "business" is a very long way off. You bring up the NHL, which was on a 25 year plan in its' birth and a 25 year plan as the original six. If you're telling me the KHL will be ready to move in 50 years, honestly, I could care less. I'll either be dead or very old.

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08-04-2009, 10:31 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
just for the record... the Italian hockey league.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A_(ice_hockey)

this is like Bettman putting a team in Guatemala.

and I can't find anything about an Irish professional hockey league, other than a rumor post on here from a couple of years back that there *may* be one coming. I'm curious as to what your opinions on the Sun Belt teams are?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Ice_Hockey_League

Its not professional yet, as its only a few years old. Then again, having hockey become professional right away in Ireland would be like starting a professional cricket league here in the US right out of the blue.

(I know you brought this up to make a point over the KHL expanding into areas where the sport isn't well known, but I had be a smart ass and mention the Irish League and its status. No ill will intended. )

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08-04-2009, 10:32 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Ice_Hockey_League

Its not professional yet, as its only a few years old. Then again, having hockey become professional right away in Ireland would be like starting a professional cricket league here in the US right out of the blue.

(I know you brought this up to make a point over the KHL expanding into areas where the sport isn't well known, but I had be a smart ass and mention the Irish League and its status. No ill will intended. )
None taken. I found that on the google search but couldn't find anything professional.

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08-04-2009, 10:37 PM
  #42
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it's not that they can't expand, I am assuming they will dump the dead weight eventually for other Eastern European or Scandianvian teams, teams which are legit businesses and will help. but it doesn't change that the original teams are not viable
businesses and may never be, they're just arms of the Russian sports inititive and are essentially black holes.

it's that your long-term expansion plan was beyond ridiculous. there is no way there will be a pan-European league because the Western and Southern European places you mentioned are not legitimate hockey markets and would destroy any progress the league made. It's like the Bettman plan on a whole bunch of steriods.

I don't see how this works. I also don't see how the league, as a whole, will fail. It'll end up somewhere in the middle. But I do think that this being a successful "business" is a very long way off. You bring up the NHL, which was on a 25 year plan in its' birth and a 25 year plan as the original six. If you're telling me the KHL will be ready to move in 50 years, honestly, I could care less. I'll either be dead or very old.
Who cares if they're not viable right now? The question is whether or not they'll be viable in the future, and there's no reason to think they won't be.

Like I mentioned, the western & southern places would be teh last to come, once the league is strong, and will be the move they need for long term success...to understand the motivation beyond it you'd have to understand why the "bettman plan" is actually problably the best thing that ever happened to get game of hockey.

In today's business world things move a lot faster. You're looking at 15 years for the KHL to be on par with the NHL if they play things right...and decreasing NHL franchise values as they get closer and closer. Remember that the NHL owners are in the business of protecting their franchise values, and they've gotta focus on stopping all future threats before they get off the ground.... its like any business, if you wait until your competition is established and viable, its too late to squeeze them out.

Look back to the mid-late 1990s cellphone market. Motorola & Nokia had the cellphone market cornered. There was this little startup company from Waterloo called RIM who made mobile paging devices/organizers. Cell phone companies ignored the future threat because they didn't see synergy between organizers, mobile messaging, and mobile telephony. Motorola & Nokia are still around, but they are lagging terribly behind the market thanks to their lack of foresight.

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08-04-2009, 10:38 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
it's not that they can't expand, I am assuming they will dump the dead weight eventually for other Eastern European or Scandianvian teams, teams which are legit businesses and will help. but it doesn't change that the original teams are not viable
businesses and may never be, they're just arms of the Russian sports inititive and are essentially black holes.

it's that your long-term expansion plan was beyond ridiculous. there is no way there will be a pan-European league because the Western and Southern European places you mentioned are not legitimate hockey markets and would destroy any progress the league made. It's like the Bettman plan on a whole bunch of steriods.

I don't see how this works. I also don't see how the league, as a whole, will fail. It'll end up somewhere in the middle. But I do think that this being a successful "business" is a very long way off. You bring up the NHL, which was on a 25 year plan in its' birth and a 25 year plan as the original six. If you're telling me the KHL will be ready to move in 50 years, honestly, I could care less. I'll either be dead or very old.
The expansion also infringes upon the old leagues like the SEL and DEL that will not fly well with the IIHF. The KHL is not a legitimate threat to the NHL and won't be for a very long time.

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08-04-2009, 10:39 PM
  #44
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Both sides are guilty. The KHL started it. NHL isn't helping, and now the KHL has put on its halo. Pathetic.

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08-04-2009, 10:53 PM
  #45
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I can see the NHL backing down on this one like they did with Kwiatkowski. There's no point in fighting over a depth player.

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08-04-2009, 10:54 PM
  #46
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Both sides are guilty. The KHL started it. NHL isn't helping, and now the KHL has put on its halo. Pathetic.
The NHL started it 20 years ago. And now NHL is obviously upset because they can't poach players anymore without threat of retribution against them.

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08-04-2009, 10:57 PM
  #47
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The NHL started it 20 years ago. And now NHL is obviously upset because they can't poach players anymore without threat of retribution against them.
Because the KHL existed 20 years ago or for patriotic reasons, the KHL is standing up and holding the NHL accountable for transgressions prior to its existence.

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08-04-2009, 11:14 PM
  #48
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Are we not talking about an agreement between the KHL and NHL? Poaching Alex Radulov directly after hashing out an agreement with a rival league is not going to go overwell, and instill faith, especially when the player poached is a high end talent. Using the "well the NHL did it to teams in the RSL" is petty, and that line of thinking will just continue to make things worse. The NHL shouldn't bend over for the KHL simply because players used to defect before the KHL was even formed.
Add to that that there really is no comparison between the calibre of the players, Lampman and Radulov and you get hypocrisy at its finest. The KHL doesn't seem to mind trying to pry away NHL talent, so why should the NHL care if their clubs do the same.

The agreement is pretty worthless... obviously.
If you're so keen on dismissing past NHL poaching, it still doesn't get any better in the present. The KHL has honoured the 'verbal contract agreement' 100%......NHL has not.

Hudler was NEVER under contract. Proof of the legality of KHL's signing is in the fact that Hudler will receive his transfer card which needs to be signed by NHL, KHL and IIHF.
And it's obvious that Daly is now reduced to shifting the ground from 'the respect of existing contracts' (which was the original agreeement), to 'don't interfere in contract process'.

NHL has blatantly signed players under contract in Kwiatkowski (which rightfully was nullified) and now Lampman...plus the whole Dadonov situation.

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08-04-2009, 11:17 PM
  #49
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lets face it, **** ty players go play in the KHL because it is a **** ty league. Sorry we took guys like Malkin, Fedorov and others but the best players in the world come to the best league in the world.

People in Europe need to get not get flustered when guys want to challenge themselves and play against the top players in the world. It is a natural part of life, people want to be the best in their profession, the only way to be the best is be in the best league in thw world and face top notch competition.

There are several good players in the KHL but it is the same for other sports and other leagues all over the world. Just look at the Fedor Emilinanko guy in MMA. Not in the UFC with a 30-1 record but not considered the best because he does not face top competition that the UFC has. Not the best example but one that has been in the news lately so thought i would use it. The NHL needs to let guys go who do not want to be here. What type of person does not want to be the best? **** Hudler and **** Radulov, decent players but ran for the money, no one wants that lack of character around

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08-04-2009, 11:23 PM
  #50
Zine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Because the KHL existed 20 years ago or for patriotic reasons, the KHL is standing up and holding the NHL accountable for transgressions prior to its existence.
It's because the ramifications of NHL's poaching can still be seen in Russian hockey today.
When USSR fell, hockey in Russia was ***** and pillaged, gutted and left for dead. A good portion of that was due to NHL giving absolutely nothing back for the all the talent it took.
Now that Russian hockey is getting back on it's feet, Medvedev/Fetisov/Tretiak are making sure history won't repeat itself.

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